*** SERIOUSLY

carty said:

Friend of mine rubs WD 40 on his knees he says it helps his arthritis !
CAROL

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Glad to know he rubs it on his knees only .

The only 2 things in life you need
WD40 & Duck tape
If it needs to move WD40 if it needs to stay still Duck tape

My dad uses WD40 for arthritis in his hands, for those that don't like the idea emu oli is good as well, remember to get odour free one other with you smell birdy

Oldvatr said:

I think part of the problem is that although LC diets have been around for a while, the LCHF diet is relatively new on the scene, and has been given the green light only as a result of ONE study that shows that saturated fats are not as unsafe as we had been told by the medical profession for many years now. Only one study so far, and everybody and their aunt is climbing on the LCHF bandwagon. I am one of them. Indeed, in terms of my BGL it does seem to work well, and i am not having the cravings I had on an LC only diet. BUT, I too have concerns that (a) I may be missing out on essential micronutrients, and (b) having had one heart attack, I do not need another one so, am I increasing my risk. I think the jury is (or should be) still out on whether this diet is good for the long term. We have only got about 9 months 'evidence' since the report was published. I understand that there may be evidence that LCHF may increase insulin resistance for T1D's due to the high fat content.

I am not amember of the medical profession, merely a T2D, but I can see why we are at odds with them. I remember the controversy over the Atkins diet, and I have personal knpwledge of a friend who suffered badly from that diet.

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LCHF has been around for over 20 years - a doctor in Sweden (called 'Dr Fat' in the media) went to the block over it, with dieticians and other medical professionals trying to having her disbarred for promoting a dangerous diet. They took her court. They lost. The rest is LCHF history (in Sweden at least!) The medical professionals trying to get her stricken off as a practising doctor lost because of the weight of scientific evidence proving her correct.

As for long term evidence for humanity generally. How is about 2 million years? (For many peoples at any rate.) Check out Volek and Phinney in 'The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living' , chapter 2.

The only insulinemic high-fat food is dairy, to my knowledge (cream for instance, but I don't know the levels involved), and yes - people have very different responses to dairy, optimum health-wise. I don't know the physical dynamic of insulin resistance for T1s - I thought that was the same for both T1 and T2 if one has it? But share all if not.

I found one of my insulin % of foods charts - and realised it isn't cream that raises our insulin in response to - it's really milk, and to a lesser extent - cheese. And brie and camembert are the lowest insulinogenic (I was using the wrong word too - sorry about that!) cheeses. From Marty Kendall's amazing website.

AloeSvea said:

LCHF has been around for over 20 years - a doctor in Sweden (called 'Dr Fat' in the media) went to the block over it, with dieticians and other medical professionals trying to having her disbarred for promoting a dangerous diet. They took her court. They lost. The rest is LCHF history (in Sweden at least!) The medical professionals trying to get her stricken off as a practising doctor lost because of the weight of scientific evidence proving her correct.

As for long term evidence for humanity generally. How is about 2 million years? (For many peoples at any rate.) Check out Volek and Phinney in 'The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living' , chapter 2.

The only insulinemic high-fat food is dairy, to my knowledge (cream for instance, but I don't know the levels involved), and yes - people have very different responses to dairy, optimum health-wise. I don't know the physical dynamic of insulin resistance for T1s - I thought that was the same for both T1 and T2 if one has it? But share all if not.

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Links are:- (You will probably need to cut&paste into your browser).

http://www.mendosa.com/The-Fat-of-the-Matter-How-Dietary-Fat-Effects-Blood-Glucose.htm />
http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/36/4/810.full />

Oldvatr said:

Links are:- (You will probably need to cut&paste into your browser).

http://www.mendosa.com/The-Fat-of-the-Matter-How-Dietary-Fat-Effects-Blood-Glucose.htm />
http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/36/4/810.full />

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Ah ok - but. And it's a big 'but'!

From Gary Scheiner 'The Fat of the Matter':

"Pizza. A hot fudge sundae. Movie theater popcorn. Cheesesteaks wit (hey, I’m a Philly guy).

What do they all have in common? More than being mighty tasty, they’re also loaded with fat. Fat doesn’t usually receive a whole lot of attention from those on intensive insulin programs; carbs seem to get all the glory. And deservedly so: Carbs cause a rapid rise in blood glucose, while fat seems to have little effect. Or does it?"

Righto she says -

Pizza - it's the carb content in the pizza base that will do us diabetics in (I make my own low-carb pizza base - no worries re my blood glucose).
A hot fudge sundae - where to begin? The sugar in the ice cream = carbs. The sugar in the lactose in the milk = carbs. The sugar in the chocolate fudge syrup = carbs. The sugar and the carbs in the wheat wafer. Sigh. (I remember wafers!) Oldvatr. This is cruel. I can't tell you how much I loved hot fudge sundaes in my pre-diabetic era. (Just a diabetic in the making!) I was lucky (or unlucky? gee this is hard...) enough to work in an ice cream parlour when a sweet young thing. I had ice cream sundaes galore. And milk shakes. And thick shakes. Sigh. I just love ice cream in all shapes sizes flavours. But they are out of bounds now, you know - cos of me wanting to keep my feet! And my eyesight - that kind of thing. For me when it comes to choice - my feet or another hot fudge sundae...

but it isn't the fat content of the hot fudge sundae that will dynamite my poor neuropathic feet - it's the carbs!

Fat in its pure healthy form does not affect one's blood glucose. Not one iota! Carbs do. If in doubt - easy to check. Just eat and meter.

OK. Onto the theatre popcorn. Another sigh. Popcorn = carbs. A deeper sigh cos who doesn't love popcorn? Trans fats - very very very bad and not to be confused with healthy fat. Salt combined with carbs = not a healthy combo! The fat in the butter (if it isn't trans fat? butter mixed with some overproduced oil of some kind...) not good in combo with the carbs.

Cheesesteaks - what the hell is a cheesesteak??!!! I'm not a Philly gal. I have no idea of what a cheesesteak is. Can't comment on it.

OK, onto the next article... (love links and readings! many thanks....)

From the study '
Dietary Fat Acutely Increases Glucose Concentrations and Insulin Requirements in Patients With Type 1 Diabetes
Implications for carbohydrate-based bolus dose calculation and intensive diabetes management Wolpert, Castillo, Smith, and Steil.
"Dietary fat and free fatty acids (FFAs) are known to impair insulin sensitivity and to enhance hepatic glucose production. Furthermore, pharmacologic interventions that lower FFA levels in nondiabetic and type 2 diabetic individuals lead to both improved insulin sensitivity and glucose tolerance. Studies in patients with type 1 and type 2 diabetes have shown that dietary fat delays gastric emptying, leading to a lag in glucose absorption. Although there has been considerable interest in the role of dietary fat and circulating FFAs in the pathogenesis of type 2 diabetes, relatively little attention has been given to the possible implications of FFA-induced insulin resistance for the treatment of type 1 diabetes. Review of continuous glucose monitoring and food log data from our adult patients with type 1 diabetes led to the observation that, contrary to the current treatment recommendations, higher-fat meals usually require more insulin coverage than lower-fat meals with similar carbohydrate content."

Well, this is out of my league indeed. It's good that you shared this for sure.

All I can say is that yes, indeed - high fat foods in combination with high carbs would affect diabetic folk differently. And non-diabetic folk! High healthy fat in order to be healthy MUST be in a low-carb food environment. Is my understanding. It is what our bodies are geared for apparently. Some deal with a gear shift differently and without their organs hitting the alert and breakdown territory, as in we diabetics. But diabetics? T2 at any rate. Our bodies are not handling it (the 'it' being high fat with high carbs.) T1 - out of my area of expertise.

AloeSvea said:

From the study '
Dietary Fat Acutely Increases Glucose Concentrations and Insulin Requirements in Patients With Type 1 Diabetes
Implications for carbohydrate-based bolus dose calculation and intensive diabetes management Wolpert, Castillo, Smith, and Steil.
"Dietary fat and free fatty acids (FFAs) are known to impair insulin sensitivity and to enhance hepatic glucose production. Furthermore, pharmacologic interventions that lower FFA levels in nondiabetic and type 2 diabetic individuals lead to both improved insulin sensitivity and glucose tolerance. Studies in patients with type 1 and type 2 diabetes have shown that dietary fat delays gastric emptying, leading to a lag in glucose absorption. Although there has been considerable interest in the role of dietary fat and circulating FFAs in the pathogenesis of type 2 diabetes, relatively little attention has been given to the possible implications of FFA-induced insulin resistance for the treatment of type 1 diabetes. Review of continuous glucose monitoring and food log data from our adult patients with type 1 diabetes led to the observation that, contrary to the current treatment recommendations, higher-fat meals usually require more insulin coverage than lower-fat meals with similar carbohydrate content."

Well, this is out of my league indeed. It's good that you shared this for sure.

All I can say is that yes, indeed - high fat foods in combination with high carbs would affect diabetic folk differently. And non-diabetic folk! High healthy fat in order to be healthy MUST be in a low-carb food environment. Is my understanding. It is what our bodies are geared for apparently. Some deal with a gear shift differently and without their organs hitting the alert and breakdown territory, as in we diabetics. But diabetics? T2 at any rate. Our bodies are not handling it (the 'it' being high fat with high carbs.) T1 - out of my area of expertise.

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"Circulating FFA" means plasma triglycerides, I think, which will be reduced on a LCHF diet. No need for big pharma to get involved.

"Circulating FFA" means plasma triglycerides" Um they aren't trigs when they are 'free'

All dietary and body fats are triglycerides(triacylglycerols) they are three fatty acids joined to a glycerol backbone. The bond that joins them to the backbone is called an ester bond. They are large molecules and as fat and water don't 'mix' they can't be transported in the watery environment of the blood and lymph They need 'containers' to allow them to move around. They are carried in lipoproteins
(chylomicrons, very low density lipoproteins , low density lipoproteins and high density lipoproteins.

Free fatty acids are otherwise known as non esterified fatty acids ie the triglyceride has been broken down and the fatty acids are no longer attached to the backbone. This occurs at several points in the process of digestion and transport . (ie trigs are broken down and afterward reformed )One of these is when stored fat is broken down and released into the blood in the 'fasting' period .These free fatty acids are smaller and can be carried in the blood together with albumin (a protein).
There are two fairly easy Khan videos that explain it.

The role of high levels of free fatty acids in increasing insulin resistance is discussed in the not so easy paper which was cited in the Wolpert paper mentioned above http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2995548/

Thanks guys for having such a sensible debate on this matter. I bought it up because I have seen very little debate on whether high fat is ok, and because it is early days for the LCHF diet. I had expected more discussion on the LC threads elsewhere, but it seems the mainstream has accepted LCHF almost without question. I am T2D so it is not significant to my journey, but I have a friend who is T1D on a pump, and he struggles with fat content of his diet. He carb counts so he can adjust his insulin, but he only allows for carbs, and no one has taught him how to adjust his bolus for fat content. If there is an effect as described in those reports I found, then he and other T1D's need some education so they can learn how to deal with it. As a T2D I know from experience that high fat slows down and flattens a carb peak, and this aids my bgl struggles. Not sure what it is doing to my arteries, but as @AloeSvea said, it is the combination of LC that makes the HF work, and the two must be run together. It is essential that we run our bodies in ketogenic mode. I am on the LCHF online training module, and it was not spelt out there. It is only when reading different forums that i finally get the message, As the OP started,it is right that we should question things we read, whether it comes from a medical professional, a diet guru, big pharma, or even DCUK since none of us really has the answers. We need to be wary, and carry out as much topic research as we can manage then make as good a decision as we can at that time. I can see why those in the health profession should stick to what they were taught at medschool, but as I tried to point out, it is on us the users to also educate when the opportunity arises. Forums such as this one make a valuable contribution to the debate(s).

Oldvatr said:

I have a friend who is T1D on a pump, and he struggles with fat content of his diet. He carb counts so he can adjust his insulin, but he only allows for carbs, and no one has taught him how to adjust his bolus for fat content.

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As a T1, it's far more complex than just fats slowing down carb ingestion. We also have to take into account protein effects and there is also a side effect with fats that results in an accelerant effect with fat and carbs. As a result, working out how it all works is painful. The polish pump method goes into a lot more detail looking at how to bolus for carbs, protein and fat, and is really effective, if tricky to get your head around.

It's probably worth pointing him at this site, as there is a lot of discussion on this issue in the T1 and pump forums.

This is probably the best study I've seen of the phenomenon, and even it doesn't have the greatest population. http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/36/12/3897.long

tim2000s said:

As a T1, it's far more complex than just fats slowing down carb ingestion. We also have to take into account protein effects and there is also a side effect with fats that results in an accelerant effect with fat and carbs. As a result, working out how it all works is painful. The polish pump method goes into a lot more detail looking at how to bolus for carbs, protein and fat, and is really effective, if tricky to get your head around.

It's probably worth pointing him at this site, as there is a lot of discussion on this issue in the T1 and pump forums.

This is probably the best study I've seen of the phenomenon, and even it doesn't have the greatest population. http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/36/12/3897.long

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Thank you Tim. Unfortunately my friend does not have access to the internet. I will try to extract the relevent info and print it out.

For readers concerned about fatty acids and their own healthy fat food content - this is particularly where your trigylceride reading comes in, from your normal blood lipid tests.

What upping your protein somewhat, and healthy fat content, and lowering carb content to varying levels (depending on your own carbohydrate tolerance) has shown again and again to lower trigylcerides in people's blood - ie the fatty acid level derived from food and your fat storage. Lower triglyceride numbers reflect greater health (under 1.7 mmol/L better, under 1 even better.) BUT don't take mine or anyone's word for it - you check it out for yourself! Get your blood lipids checked, note your triglyceride level, go LCHF or paleo or whatever way of eating strikes your fancy that will lower your carb content and raise your healthy fat content, and get your blood lipids done again, and note all the figures - but for this argument - the triglycerides.

It seems folks our bodies work better on this food balance. It seems that 2 million years of evolution and what we as a species were eating (in terms of carbs, as in low, and protein and fat - as in pretty high!) really DOES make a difference. And you can see it in your own blood lipid panel results.

Do note though, if you have a lot of fat stored in your body - there will be a period of time when your triglycerides (remembering that this is how you know what is happening in your own body with fatty acids) are really high, when the fat in your body is being released into your blood stream and used up and (is excreted the right word here? I don't know) - shipped out! So allow for that, if you have plenty of fat in storage, then get your blood lipids checked again after you have lost the fat. I say this with a delightful (I hope!) confidence, as I have read the research, and it happened to me. It has happened to countless people who have tried this. Because - our bodies really do seem to work this way! But as I say - don't take my word for it - check it out for yourself!

All through my early years I was raised on full fat Jersey milk, and bacon and bread and dripping. Loved it !!! We had generation of farmers in my bloodline who thrived to a good old age on that type of diet, My father passed away earlier this year at the age of 94, and he led a very active and fit life up to his sudden illness. I have for several years now fought my family to remove marge from our diet, so I am happy to embrace HF. But I do need to assess the risks before I fully endorse HF for others. I will be having my blood panel taken next week, so will see how my lipids compare to when I started LCHF. I will try to come back and report the outcome. I need HF because I do not need to lose any more weight

Oldvatr said:

All through my early years I was raised on full fat Jersey milk, and bacon and bread and dripping. Loved it !!! We had generation of farmers in my bloodline who thrived to a good old age on that type of diet, My father passed away earlier this year at the age of 94, and he led a very active and fit life up to his sudden illness. I have for several years now fought my family to remove marge from our diet, so I am happy to embrace HF. But I do need to assess the risks before I fully endorse HF for others. I will be having my blood panel taken next week, so will see how my lipids compare to when I started LCHF. I will try to come back and report the outcome. I need HF because I do not need to lose any more weight

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Sounds good!

I think your father having lived to a great age should reassure you! Doesn't it?

But it's all good us contributing our experiences and blood lipids to the big pool of knowledge.

And it is mighty strange at first eating food that we were told, in the last 40 years, would kill us! And mighty depressing to think we are the generation that are the fall-guys for that oh-so-bad-for-us HCLF dietary information. Not that we aren't fighting back! I know I am!

carty said:

Friend of mine rubs WD 40 on his knees he says it helps his arthritis !
CAROL

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Hmmmm. Maybe not so wise...


Myth: WD-40® cures arthritis.

Fact: This popular headline, appearing at least once a year in the tabloids, is completely FALSE. WD-40 Company does not recommend the use ofWD-40® for medical purposes, and knows no reason why WD-40® would be effective for arthritis pain relief. WD-40® contains petroleum distillates and should be handled with the same precautions for any product containing this type of material.

Such an interesting thread. I so agree that the NHS, for whatever reason, has got things arseways re diabetes. Most GPs don't seem to have a clue. Even this website admits that reasons behind the causes of problems associated with diabetes are unknown. It is a horrible, sh**ty disease and so much more needs to be done to really understand it, to help those that have it, and to prevent it, because we are facing a catastrophic epidemic. Am I just being a bit cynical to think that BigPharma are rubbing their hands with glee?

RYU said:

Okay so in the thread here I posted about how I managed to get my HBa1c down from 10.6 to 6.9 in three months. i've just got back from seeing the diabetes nurse who basically spent the last 5 minutes of the appointment all but making me stand and face the corner If I wanted to be treated like a littler kid I could back in time not go and see a nurse who yes thinks its great that my figures have come down and thinks its great that I've lost two stone in three months until she finds out how I've lost it and all of a sudden its not healthy I should see a doctor I should be taking my metformin and blah blah blah blah. if it was healthy for me to lose the weight, no matter how I lose it then its still healthy and no, I've not been that extreme I've just been following a LCHF diet fair enough I've only been eating once a day but I've always only eaten once a day so wheres the harm in that.

But no all of a sudden I'm staving, myself I need to increase my carbs as foods containing carbs also contain other necessary vitamins etc etc.

I'm beyond fuming right now I want from a high for the 1st time in months (I suffer severe depression) to wanting to seriously do someone some serious harm with a wood chipper and a can of WD40.

I've also just recieved a letter about my P.I.P I've got to see a health consultant this day just keeps getting better and better..... <thats a lame attempt at sarcam

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Every time im given another pill to take i ask what is it for & how does it work...Ive asked a number of heath care officials the same questions & they all give different answers so to you i say....YOU know your body best... you remain proud & positive & stuff them the answer to diabetes is NOT a one size fits all.

When I attend the diabetic clinic I get to see a dietitian, on the last occasion I asked her about the low carb diet,and she was dead against it. They give the same diet information to everyone.

I do need to lose weight, and as I have ME/chronic fatigue, I do not have the energy to exercise, so I have decided to go the low carbs or no carbs route.

My opinion is that the human body is so complex and some of us are suffering other health issues which have an impact upon our weight,I also have a thyroid problem which increases weight gain, so how can this one diet suit absolutely everyone. I have been to health talks from young nutrition students who are enthusiastic about healthy lifestyles and their knowledge and information is the complete opposite of the NHS.

Will we be permitted to sue the NHS if their information is not correct or suitable ?

I should have known when I was first diagnosed, and at the food information session the diabetic nurse advised us on the quantities of alcohol we could drink, I thought I would have to give it up completely as it contained sugar , I m just dazed and confused