So what really causes type II?

Don't forget folks that in addition to fat deposits in the pancreas potentailly limiting insulin output there remains the other cause of loss of insulin resulting from antibodies such as GAD and others plus viruses and pancreatitis. This doesn't appear to have anything to do with fat deposits. So, not all those diagnosed as T2 are actually T2 (around 15% suspected). If they are stick thin (to quote one of the posters) then the diagnosis is more likely to be Late onset T1 (LADA). Weight reduction isn't relevant in this case and low-carbing will not avoid the need for life-long insulin eventually. Yes, diabetes is very complex.

Hi everyone, I've been interested to read this thread - haven't contributed more than one or two posts but always scan the forum . . .

Just to add another dimension to why we have become diabetic - I developed diabetes at 28 while I was studying, that's a whole 40 years ago now. It was discovered like many of you during a routine check when my blood pressure became high. I was nearly stopped from going on a teaching practice to Holland but I managed to persuade the powers that be that I wouldn't die over there.

There's no one in my immediate family or more distant relatives that has diabetes so it was a puzzle. I had had shingles aged 17 which is young for that so it seemed like another early start to a health condition. Docs thought it might have been brought on by being on the contraceptive pill but it didn't go away when I stopped. I only had a few pounds to shed which I duly did and started on a moderately low carbohydrate diet. Yes, in the dim old distant days, type 2 diabetes was primarily controlled by strictly controlling carbohydrates! Then various pills, insulin when pregnant and now a basal bolus regime which doesn't suit me too well as my blood sugars yo-yo and I'm always having to take glucose tabs to resolve hypos. Especially tiresome in the night!

I have looked after my diabetes and paid attention to it, trying to improve my HBA1C for years. It's frustrating that I don't get great results from this and seem to get loads of infections and viruses (shingles episodes, 3 times in 14 months!) Basically my immune system seems to be shot.

But the point of this post (apart from having a good moan to sympathetic people!) was really to show yet another example of odd cases who develop diabetes. When I was diagnosed there was no talk of MODY or NIDDY so I never had any specific tests and have just been treated as a type 2.

Going back to reducing carbs more and cutting out short acting insulin when I can.

I do believe genes play a part to some degree as Asian, Native American people, for example, can be diagnosed with type 2 diabetes at a young age. For myself I believe it was following a low fat diet which lead me to eating more carbs in conjunction with taking tablets for high blood pressure which I have read can cause higher blood glucose readings. Just a couple of years later I was diagnosed with type 2 diabetes, no in between stage, as I was told I did not have diabetes when I developed high blood pressure. Before I went on a low fat diet I was about 20 pounds overweight but by the time I was diagnosed with T2 I had lost one and a half stone and continued losing weight until I lost another one and a half stone from following a lower carb diet. Nobody in my family had been diagnosed with type 2 diabetes but my father later was but he was 80 and had been on steroids for years. I do take the fasting blood of my family members and found that 3 of them have readings higher than normal and I have advised them to eat less sugar and refined carbs or they may well develop diabetes type 2 as well. I knew nothing about type 2 diabetes before I was diagnosed although I read about the GI food and began to realize I was eating a lot of food that turned to sugar in my body. At that time there was not all that info in the papers as there is today about diabetes whether type 1 or type 2.

What causes T2?
Lots of things!
One senior UK researcher, prof Edwin Gale said last year said it was a category error, a diagnosis of exclusion.
' In practice, when somebody like myself talks about type 2 diabetes, I'm saying 'a form of diabetes for which I can find no other cause.'
'it is a "ragbag" of conditions "................."all wrapped up into one definition -- which is fair enough, except that people forget it."
'multifactorial diseases can't be defined in terms of their cause'
He says it should be called idiopathic hyperglycaemia (raised glucose for unknown reasons so people don't fall into the trap of thinking it's one condition .(with one treatment pathway)
The original paper is no longer free access but you can see a video with Professor Gale explaining his position.

Re Steve Redgrave

At presentation, he gave a past medical history of intermittent ulcerative colitis diagnosed in 1992, which was then under good control, and of appendicectomy in April 1997. He had required insulin (20–30 units per day) for prednisolone-induced diabetes during treatment for previous exacerbation of colitis. He weighed 105 kg and on examination was a very fit man. He had no diabetic complications (specifically no evidence of peripheral vascular disease) and normal peripheral sensation, power, tone and reflexes. The random blood glucose was
25 mmol/l associated with moderate ketonuria, but no proteinuria. The results of investigation suggested a diagnosis of type 2 diabetes with a negative islet cell antibody titre and detectable C-peptide

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http://www.clinmed.rcpjournal.org/content/3/4/333.long
so diagnosed with T2 However he also had a history of steroid induced diabetes and only ICA antibodies were tested (Glutamic acid decarboxylase autoantibodies (GADA), islet cell autoantibodies (ICA), insulinoma-associated (IA-2) autoantibodies, and zinc transporter autoantibodies (ZnT8) can all be associated with LADA)
( 1997 is a long time ago in LADA terms, most people are now tested for anti GAD and I don't think that Zn T8 antibodies had even been discovered! )

A well known cause for the increase in DB2 was Very strong ANTIBIOTICS.
I am sure a number of other very strong medicines contribute to start the problem around the immune system.
In my case ,which is now pretty severe ,the liver area is also the problem.
Most people posting on this forum do not understand the technicalities of how the body process of using
insulin is not mechanic in nature,Unless you realize it switches on and off at times.
This is very often the cause of non regular readings.Just ask an Endiocryonologist.
I can actual trace my own history to the turning point and also few others who used antibiotics.
Surprisingly i found the particular brand I took was withdrawn from use not very long afterwards
and I was even warned by the chemist before taking it .
Though I did not have much choice at the time.
I agree that genetics are also a major factor ,Most of the wimp like diabetic people posting their scores
as though this site seem to use it as a facebook or twitter page and are near normal with readings so low
that if I ever got down to their norm I would be hypo./
The official very flexible pre diabetic figures have been lowered historically
and a good percentage of poor diet and overweight people now categorized
as DB2 so they are getting a broadside about their poor diet and lifestyle.That is a good thing.
Sadly mine was almost tuned to create a diabetic situation with shift work, stress (yes I am married joking)
high energy diet.
Their are obvious reasons why the medical industry does not want this cause to be public knowledge but having
spent a lot of time studying and discussing with insiders and analyzing the reasons people within the medical
make statements.DB It is not the only area in this industry that has a finger of suspicion pointing...
The whole DB area is under the control of the medicine industry not the NHS? & Doctors.
Thats life ?

This is truly shocking and so sad

http://www.scotsman.com/news/health/fears-over-diabetes-diagnosis-for-scots-under-4s-1-3665216

Robinredbreast said:

This is truly shocking and so sad

http://www.scotsman.com/news/health/fears-over-diabetes-diagnosis-for-scots-under-4s-1-3665216

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So sad, and so unnecessary.

Bluetit1802 said:

So sad, and so unnecessary.

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Yes, it's heartbreaking to read.....................

And it will only get worse as welfare cuts go deeper.. I popped into ASDA last night and fruit and veg is never on buy one get one free but fizzy pop, crisps and bags of frozen carby **** are dirt cheap. Combine that with a generation or more who can only operate a microwave or pop a pizza in oven and you are on hiding to nothing. In many ways , the eat well plate would be a positive step up for many even if we know it isn't great for diabetics in general. I know that you can buy veg cheap on the market and make your own food, but looking at people's trolleys in the supermarket, many just buy a jar of sugary sauce and a bag of pasta or white rice and call it dinner.

douglas99 said:

No one has time for the market though, when both parents work, and then buy processed food to re-heat at night.
Affluent, but no time to cook.
Or neither parent works, and the £1 ready meal, or the chicken burgers and chips are a cheap option.

My daughters are students, they eat cheaply, and fairly well, but pasta and rice will always be a staple, they do eat veg but it tends to be ones that go into a stir fry. They do eat fruit though.

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I know - there's no easy answers. My son is on autistic spectrum and has had food issues since birth .. We tried to get help via NHS dietician and found a lovely one but she was replaced by a bloke who told me everyone is a bit autistic about food and discharged us. Now he lives on white carbs and broccoli and carrots . Another type 2 in making, I have no issue with non processed carbs being a staple if folk can handle it, but I'm not sure that pizza and oven chips washed down with a can of monster and then some crisps or a sugary ready meal are doing anyone any favours ... I'd like to see cookery a skill all children are taught in school so that they aren't looking at a future of turkey twizzlers or a gastro dine in dinner for two.

douglas99 said:

Cooking in schools was something the 'girls' did, as they couldn't be trusted to cope with the 'boys' subjects, so I am pleased that has changed.
My kids did some after school cooking, which they wanted to do, but it meant I had to go and pick them up, as they missed the bus.
They were fortunate in that I could make the time to do so, other parents had to work.
They cook at home with me, as I believe it's a skill they need to know.
(Ironically, my mother was a dreadful cook, so I learnt so I could avoid her cooking - that's why I can never post a recipe, I tend to use whatever is available, never measure anything, and cook by taste)

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My mother was such an awful cook as well! We have something in common

My wife is a great cook and I was spoiled, now I'm learning to do everything in the house! It ain't easy! And work!

1970 to 1974, I did Home Economics, Metalwork and Woodwork not just 'cooking'

cold ethyl said:

And it will only get worse as welfare cuts go deeper.. I popped into ASDA last night and fruit and veg is never on buy one get one free but fizzy pop, crisps and bags of frozen carby **** are dirt cheap. Combine that with a generation or more who can only operate a microwave or pop a pizza in oven and you are on hiding to nothing. In many ways , the eat well plate would be a positive step up for many even if we know it isn't great for diabetics in general. I know that you can buy veg cheap on the market and make your own food, but looking at people's trolleys in the supermarket, many just buy a jar of sugary sauce and a bag of pasta or white rice and call it dinner.

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Morrisons do lots of 2 for 1 ( my local store), or mix and match £2 packs of fruit and also 2 for £3

douglas99 said:

I have some welding I need doing?

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Sorry too busy and you couldn't afford me

I've read this thread with interest. I'm still so angry about being diabetic, despite it being pushing 7 years. I'm 33, I was diagnosed at 27. No known family history but my dad is adopted so I don't know about the history on that side. I have always been overweight (until I was 20 I thought your dress size was supposed to match your age...), my BMI hovered around 40 most of my adult life. I have always loved chocolate and sweets and would get migraines and vague spells if I went too long without carbs. I've also had restless legs since I was a teenager but not since my diabetes was diagnosed.

I was diagnosed with PCOS at 18 and was started on metformin for that, I saw an endocrinologist when I was 22, so I guess they checked me for diabetes then but I don't remember. Then I had a GTT after a high random reading after investigations for fatigue. My metformin was optimised but otherwise nothing changed, I think I probably started taking it more regularly... My HbA1c was non-diabetic for years, despite my diet being awful and my weight yoyoing, but generally creeping upwards. Then 2-3 years ago my HbA1cs started creeping up.

I have had a course of olanzapine at 23 and a short course of prednisolone at 24, I felt like my head had been stuffed been cotton wool after I stopped the pred. I've suffered from anxiety and depression my whole adult life and when my HbA1c started creeping up I suppose I was in a particularly difficult time. I know those can all be contributing factors.

I don't want to believe that my diabetes is my fault for eating badly, a punishment for gluttony, I wish I had a reason, that I could say 'it was definitely this', so many unknowns, it drives me crazy. I find my diabetes embarrassing, since I'm still overweight, like people are judging me. I wish I could say, it was a virus, it's genetic, something. Diabetes sucks.

optimistic_ginger said:

I've read this thread with interest. I'm still so angry about being diabetic, despite it being pushing 7 years. I'm 33, I was diagnosed at 27. No known family history but my dad is adopted so I don't know about the history on that side. I have always been overweight (until I was 20 I thought your dress size was supposed to match your age...), my BMI hovered around 40 most of my adult life. I have always loved chocolate and sweets and would get migraines and vague spells if I went too long without carbs. I've also had restless legs since I was a teenager but not since my diabetes was diagnosed.

I was diagnosed with PCOS at 18 and was started on metformin for that, I saw an endocrinologist when I was 22, so I guess they checked me for diabetes then but I don't remember. Then I had a GTT after a high random reading after investigations for fatigue. My metformin was optimised but otherwise nothing changed, I think I probably started taking it more regularly... My HbA1c was non-diabetic for years, despite my diet being awful and my weight yoyoing, but generally creeping upwards. Then 2-3 years ago my HbA1cs started creeping up.

I have had a course of olanzapine at 23 and a short course of prednisolone at 24, I felt like my head had been stuffed been cotton wool after I stopped the pred. I've suffered from anxiety and depression my whole adult life and when my HbA1c started creeping up I suppose I was in a particularly difficult time. I know those can all be contributing factors.

I don't want to believe that my diabetes is my fault for eating badly, a punishment for gluttony, I wish I had a reason, that I could say 'it was definitely this', so many unknowns, it drives me crazy. I find my diabetes embarrassing, since I'm still overweight, like people are judging me. I wish I could say, it was a virus, it's genetic, something. Diabetes sucks.

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You could be my younger twin.
I had decades of the misery you have just described - yo yoing, misery, carb cravings, depression and events that I interpreted as anxiety.

Turned out the anxiety was low blood sugar episodes, and most of the rest of it was hugely due to the micro prolactinoma. As soon as I went very low carb, most of it improved amazingly.

I'm NOT saying that you have the same health issues as me. But I had all those things, and blamed myself, for over 20 yrs. Then a throw away comment to a female doctor set her on the hunt for the cause of my hormone mess. The difference she made to my life is astonishing.

Please don't assume that you are to 'blame'.
Maybe you just don't yet know what your particular cause (yet).

57 male and I reckon from 50 I had a bunch of Glu tol tests, which showed it was okay and then one of my Cholesterol tests showed high Glu and was repeated, so Bingo. Looking back at that period I would say I felt my body was in a bit of Funk, didn't really feel right but nothing I could put my finger on, down because of various family problems, I became quite withdrawn at work so when I was given the news I just sort of let it roll.. though I was surprised how I responded, carbs were out and began to walk for a lot during my lunch break... the weight fell off and really don't miss the carbs as I love cabbage in any of its forms...
Cholesterol is out to lunch and I've not got round to that one... dropped statins and loving not having leg cramps....