statins

[bulkbiker]

Just throwing this ball back onto court/
From the BMJ archives

Wow that's compelling and confirms my belief that they aren't good for anyone really apart from the shareholders in pharma..

 

[KevinPotts]

There was a discussion this morning on Radio 4 Today program about the whether there were any benefits in taking statins for over 60s. I can't remember the name of the GP, but he wrote 'Statins - the Great Con' was saying that there was no evidence that statins prevented heart disease in over 60s. A Professor from the British Heart Foundation said they did.
You pays your money and makes your choice.

It was Malcolm Kendrick - great book.

He was also in BBC Breakfast as his team have just had their meta analysis published by the BMJ suggesting cholesterol is good for us.,. Of course we already new that didn't we


Diagnosed 13/4/16: T2, no meds, HbA1c 53, FBG 12.6, Trigs 3.6, HDL .75, LDL 4.0, BP 169/95, 13st 8lbs, waist 34" (2012 - 17st 7lbs, w 42").

6/6/16: FBG AV 4.6, Trigs 1.5, HDL 2.0, LDL 3.0, BP 112/68, BPM 66, 11st 11lbs, waist 30".

Regime: 20g LCHF, run 1 mile daily, weekly fasting.

 

[KevinPotts]

Oops I should have read on to see the great and the good had got there before me and with more precision thanks


Diagnosed 13/4/16: T2, no meds, HbA1c 53, FBG 12.6, Trigs 3.6, HDL .75, LDL 4.0, BP 169/95, 13st 8lbs, waist 34" (2012 - 17st 7lbs, w 42").

6/6/16: FBG AV 4.6, Trigs 1.5, HDL 2.0, LDL 3.0, BP 112/68, BPM 66, 11st 11lbs, waist 30".

Regime: 20g LCHF, run 1 mile daily, weekly fasting.

 

[Oldvatr]

Wow that's compelling and confirms my belief that they aren't good for anyone really apart from the shareholders in pharma..

The PETO analysis method used for virtually all NHS, Pharma, Tobacco industry studies has been thoroughly debunked. The textbooks desxribing the method have been withdrawn, and I quote the following from a statistics academic website

<<Peto and colleagues presented an alternative method to the usual Mantel-Haenszel method for pooling odds ratios across the strata of fourfold tables ( Yusuf et al. 1985). This method is not mathematically equal to the classical odds ratio but it has come to be known as the ’Peto odds ratio’. The Peto odds ratio can cause bias, especially when there is a substantial difference between the treatment and control group sizes, but it peforms well in many situations – seek the help of a statistician if you are considering using it>>

I had the good fortune to gain access to some of the study abstracts in an archive, and it was clear that the data did not support the conclusions they published and presented to the NICE comittee. I made this conclusion before i read anything about bias. I could not make the figures match the risk factors they declared.
For one of the statin trials, they were quoting an increased risk of some 40%, whereas conventional calulation showed about 2% if that.

 

[KevinPotts]

The PETO analysis method used for virtually all NHS, Pharma, Tobacco industry studies has been thoroughly debunked. The textbooks desxribing the method have been withdrawn, and I quote the following from a statistics academic website

<<Peto and colleagues presented an alternative method to the usual Mantel-Haenszel method for pooling odds ratios across the strata of fourfold tables ( Yusuf et al. 1985). This method is not mathematically equal to the classical odds ratio but it has come to be known as the ’Peto odds ratio’. The Peto odds ratio can cause bias, especially when there is a substantial difference between the treatment and control group sizes, but it peforms well in many situations – seek the help of a statistician if you are considering using it>>

I had the good fortune to gain access to some of the study abstracts in an archive, and it was clear that the data did not support the conclusions they published and presented to the NICE comittee. I made this conclusion before i read anything about bias. I could not make the figures match the risk factors they declared.
For one of the statin trials, they were quoting an increased risk of some 40%, whereas conventional calulation showed about 2% if that.

Flippin hec you've got a brain the size of a small planet. I wish you'd worked in my tech companies when I worked, you would have been an amazing asset


Diagnosed 13/4/16: T2, no meds, HbA1c 53, FBG 12.6, Trigs 3.6, HDL .75, LDL 4.0, BP 169/95, 13st 8lbs, waist 34" (2012 - 17st 7lbs, w 42").

6/6/16: FBG AV 4.6, Trigs 1.5, HDL 2.0, LDL 3.0, BP 112/68, BPM 66, 11st 11lbs, waist 30".

Regime: 20g LCHF, run 1 mile daily, weekly fasting.

 

[bulkbiker]

I do give credit to her for the diet and exercise. While she did not diet and exercise, the statins worked for her and kept her cholesterol under control. When she started to exercise and diet, the statins were not needed as much and as a result her cholesterol improved. If further recognition is in order, she inspired me to do the same and my statins (all 10mg of it) are due for review. My HDL is 1.2, LDL is 1.0 and my tryglic is 0.7. Being off the **** tablets is infinitely preferable to being on them.
(My point was that they did works for us - as did the exercise and weight loss).
If my original comments were not clear, I offer an unreserved apology to both you and my wife.

Thoroughly agree about being off the **** tablets.. But there is of course a current school of thought that says high cholesterol has no link whatsoever to Cardiac problems (see @Oldvatr 's link to the article at no 22 above)

 

[Oldvatr]

Flippin hec you've got a brain the size of a small planet. I wish you'd worked in my tech companies when I worked, you would have been an amazing asset


Diagnosed 13/4/16: T2, no meds, HbA1c 53, FBG 12.6, Trigs 3.6, HDL .75, LDL 4.0, BP 169/95, 13st 8lbs, waist 34" (2012 - 17st 7lbs, w 42").

6/6/16: FBG AV 4.6, Trigs 1.5, HDL 2.0, LDL 3.0, BP 112/68, BPM 66, 11st 11lbs, waist 30".

Regime: 20g LCHF, run 1 mile daily, weekly fasting.

I was an aeronautical design engineer designing control systems for aircraft. We used statistics quite a bit, but not the PETO technique. But the same basic principles still apply. As a result, i do not give much creedence to any statistical studiy from before 2006 which is when the new methods became the preferred

PS. i have given up taking the statins myself, and did it by going cold turkey, No hesitation, but I did inform my GP about it, and he has accepted my position. I do take Ezetimibe, which works on a different principle, and has some good track record for lowering LDL (only)

 

[Prem51]

Another report with Dr Malhotra on ITV News now.

 

[Winnie53]

I too was strongly pressured to start metformin and a statin when re-diagnosed with type 2 diabetes last year, 10 years after my original diagnosis.

Nine months later my lipid panel was almost within the normal range with lifestyle changes only - (low carb ketogenic diet with limited dairy, nutritional supplements, and walking) - greatly putting my mind at ease. Yippee!

Initially, I was scared out of my wits by the doctor, so I started reading books by cardiologists who use a combination of diet, nutritional supplements, walking, and exercise to treat "high cholesterol" - (US cardiologists Stephen Sinatra MD and Mark Houston MD; Joel Kahn MD provides a lot of useful diet and supplement information in his book too).

In the end, this is the study that convinced me NOT to take a statin - (please read it and have your doctor read it too)...

Progression of Vascular Calcification Is Increased With Statin Use in the Veterans Affairs Diabetes Trial (VADT), published in 2012 http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/35/11/2390

From what I've read, the triglyceride : HDL ratio is helpful when assessing risk, also the hsCRP-Cardio (highly sensitive C-reactive Protein) test that measures inflammation specific to the heart and arteries.

In the end I decided against taking any medication. But if I took a statin I would definitely take CoQ10 because the pathway that creates it is blocked by statins, and it plays a critical role in mitochondrial health if I'm remembering right.

Supplements I take for heart, vascular, and nerve health are cod liver oil (for vitamin A), fish oil (for omega 3's, DHA and ALA), B-complex, vitamin C, vitamin D3, vitamin K2 (MK-7), magnesium, and CoQ10; also a multi vitamin and mineral supplement, and alpha lipoic acid. Vitamins A, D, K2, and magnesium work together to move calcium out of the arteries (soft tissues) into the bone and teeth where it's needed. Canadian naturopath Kate Rheaume-Bleue ND wrote a good book on how this all works. My favorite interview with her on YouTube.com is by GnosticMedia.

Do US cardiologists Sinatra, Houston, and Kahn use statins with their patients? Yes, but with advanced testing first, not just the standard lipid panel, and no where near as frequently as general practice doctors do. They also provide dietary, supplement, exercise, and stress management guidance to their patients. Sinatra says statins are helpful in reducing arterial inflammation and in making the blood less sticky, but the benefits and risks need to be weighed individually for each patient. Additionally, the studies don't show a reduction of risk beyond a certain age.

 

[Serena51]

Thank you all for your informative and balanced posts. I have taken the decision to stop the Atorvastatin and Ezemtibe as I have not had a stroke or heart problems. At 65 I would rather live a bit shorter but without the appalling leg pains and sleepless nights. Also all the set levels for cholesterol appear to be for men, there are no specific details for women.

I would very much like to discuss this with my GP but unfortunately it virtually impossible to get an appointment these days and they are so very very busy that I don't like to take up their time.

 

[Oldvatr]

I have seen some recommending supplementation with CoQ10 coenzymes. Please be aware tht this is strongly contra indicated if you are taking Warfarin anticoagulant, since CoQ10 blocks this medication, thus increasing the chance of blood clots.

Also some recent RCT studies are suggesting that this supplement has no significant benefit in terms of reducing statin nerve damage, so any claims of health benefits from this supplement are not supported by any formal studies either for heart or muscle or nerve functionm and all such claims are purely anecdotal.

Personally i find this supplement to be expensive, so i will continue to eat it as food instead.
Apparently
<<CoQ10 is naturally found in high levels in organ meats such as liver, kidney, and heart, as well as in beef, sardines, and mackerel. Vegetarians or vegans who are used to eating these foods should find a suitable alternative. Luckily, vegetable sources of CoQ10 include spinach, broccoli, and cauliflower.1>> - Google.

 

[ChrisSamsDad]

Anybody with an enquiring mind should read Ben Goldacre's Bad Pharma, or Malcolm Kendrick's Doctoring date. That is an easier read and comes with a DVD. Then move on to Kendrick's 'The Great Cholesterol Con' or Dr Curtis 'The Cholesterol Delusion' or even Jimmy Moore's Cholesterol Clarity. Google 'Space Doctor Statins' for a terrifying history of Statin damage, it's here. https://www.spacedoc.com/articles/my-statin-story

Goldacre also contributed to a study which found that people experienced many of the possible side effects of statins IF THEY KNEW ABOUT THEM - when taking a placebo.

http://www.badscience.net/2014/03/s...ws-and-why-trials-transparency-matters-again/

This is called the Nocebo effect and it's quite common and well-documented.

Books aren't evidence one way or the other, they are merely an expression of opinion - they don't trump actual studies and research. Let's not rely on our perception of a particular person because they're experienced or talk well and in line with our thinking - that's one of the reasons why the whole 'healthy plate' / anti-fat dietary advice came about, Because government and science policy favoured the opinion of Ancel Keys who dominated the debate with very poor science.

The evidence is pretty clear that statins reduce the chance of a heart attack if you're at risk. This clearly does include - in general - everyone who's diabetic. On a more individual basis, it might well be that getting good results for your levels means you've massively lowered this risk, but the evidence seems to be that whatever the risk, it's lowered by taking statins, so even if, by good food intake, you've taken it from 1 in 500 to 1 in 5,000, and stations reduced it by 25%, that would still reduce it by 1 in 1,250.

Also, personally, I have so many things wrong with me, I couldn't with any certainty, attribute any symptoms I've had to either a single drug I've been taking, combinations of drugs or drugs and food I've been eating, general decrepitude, lack of or too much exercise or to one of the illnesses themselves, Humans are very very bad at working out cause and effect as shown over and over again by many religions - some bizarre Christian types are blaming flooding on gay marriage still - which is why we have the scientific method to establish what's actually evidence.

 

[ChrisSamsDad]

Also some recent RCT studies are suggesting that this supplement has no significant benefit in terms of reducing statin nerve damage, so any claims of health benefits from this supplement are not supported by any formal studies either for heart or muscle or nerve functionm and all such claims are purely anecdotal.

Of course, that's never been a barrier to Supplement sellers - who conveniently ignore the poor quality or counter-evidence studies to flog their stuff. Sadly this does seem to include many trained doctors who've gone to the darkside.

 

[bulkbiker]

The evidence is pretty clear that statins reduce the chance of a heart attack if you're at risk. This clearly does include - in general - everyone who's diabetic. On a more individual basis, it might well be that getting good results for your levels means you've massively lowered this risk, but the evidence seems to be that whatever the risk, it's lowered by taking statins, so even if, by good food intake, you've taken it from 1 in 500 to 1 in 5,000, and stations reduced it by 25%, that would still reduce it by 1 in 1,250.

From todays Independent online...

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...sease-taking-statins-waste-time-a7079171.html

I think the evidence you are pointing at is if you have already had a heart attack or cardiac event...not whether you are at risk of one..

 

[ChrisSamsDad]

From todays Independent online...

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...sease-taking-statins-waste-time-a7079171.html

I think the evidence you are pointing at is if you have already had a heart attack or cardiac event...not whether you are at risk of one..

No, I meant at risk of one. e.g. https://www.statnews.com/2016/04/02...eart-disease-risk-people-high-blood-pressure/

 

[bulkbiker]

No, I meant at risk of one. e.g. https://www.statnews.com/2016/04/02...eart-disease-risk-people-high-blood-pressure/

New one on me.. unconvinced though..each to their own..

 

[Winnie53]

As a result of making lifestyle changes - (low carbohydrate ketogenic diet, light on dairy, with organic, whole, plant based foods with every meal, thoughtfully chosen, high quality supplements, walking, staying hydrated with filtered water throughout the day, learning how to manage stress, getting adequate sleep) - without medication, angina stopped, foot swelling that had been an ongoing problem for me for 10 years has significantly reduced, all health markers greatly improved and are now within or just above the normal range, blood pressure normalized, and I feel a lot better. Though I should add here that I've been popping in and out of subclinical hyperthyroid for 13 years now.

During my 30's, I tried for 7 years to find a combination of medications that would address my problematic symptoms. The problem I ran into over and over and over again because I have multiple health issues is that most medications had unwanted side effects and often would make one symptom better, another worse. The doctor I worked with the last three years was brilliant, both trained and taught at the Mayo Clinic, and kept up on ongoing research. For me personally, medication in the end was not helpful, lifestyle changes worked far better. Lesson learned. I'm grateful I learned this lesson early in life.

To each his own. What's best for me may not be best for you. Do your own research from a variety of sources.

Whether or not to take a medication is a highly individual decision. I weighed the benefits and risks of taking a statin medication by reading books by cardiologists, not just one but three different cardiologists who do use statins with some of their patients. I also read studies, blogs by MD's, and watched documentaries explaining why statins are overprescribed, sometimes causing harm. One of the most surprising things I learned is that higher cholesterol levels in old age was found to increase longevity in some studies.

In my mind, anecdotal reports have value too, until they're disproven.

For now I'll take my chances with what I'm doing because my all my health markers are now within or just above the normal range.

 

[Winnie53]

@Oldvatr after reading your comments on CoQ10, I read this online article from the University of Maryland Medical Center in the US...

Possible Interactions with: Coenzyme Q10
http://umm.edu/health/medical/altmed/supplement-interaction/possible-interactions-with-coenzyme-q10

It's a quick easy read. Here's a few excerpts...

"Blood-thinning medications -- There have been reports that coenzyme Q10 may decrease the effectiveness of blood-thinning medications such as warfarin (Coumadin) or clopidigrel (Plavix), leading to the need for increased doses. Therefore, given that this medication must be monitored very closely for maintenance of appropriate levels and steady blood thinning, CoQ10 should be used with warfarin only under careful supervision by your health care provider."

My understanding is that foods containing vitamin K1 can be taken with warfarin so long as the amount eaten is consistent each day. The same may be true for taking CoQ10. I don't know. Talk with your doctor.

Interactions of CoQ10 with other medications can be positive or negative...

"If you are currently being treated with any of the following medications, you should not use CoQ10 without first talking to your health care provider."

If you are taking any of these medications, I encourage you to read the above linked article and talk with your doctor...

Daunorubicin and doxorubicin; Blood pressure medications; Blood-thinning medications; Timolol; and other medications...

"Other -- Medications that can lower the levels of coenzyme Q10 in the body include statins for cholesterol , including atorvastatin (Lipitor), lovastatin (Mevacor), pravastatin (Pravachol, and simvastatin (Zocor), fibric acid derivatives for cholesterol, including gemfibrozil (Lopid), beta-blockers for high blood pressure, such as atenolol (Tenormin), labetolol (Normodyne), metoprolol (Lopressor or Toprol), and propranolol (Inderal), and tricyclic antidepressant medications, including amitriptyline (Elavil), doxepin (Sinequan), and imipramine (Tofranil)."

 

[Oldvatr]

@Oldvatr after reading your comments on CoQ10, I read this online article from the University of Maryland Medical Center in the US...

Possible Interactions with: Coenzyme Q10
http://umm.edu/health/medical/altmed/supplement-interaction/possible-interactions-with-coenzyme-q10

It's a quick easy read. Here's a few excerpts...

"Blood-thinning medications -- There have been reports that coenzyme Q10 may decrease the effectiveness of blood-thinning medications such as warfarin (Coumadin) or clopidigrel (Plavix), leading to the need for increased doses. Therefore, given that this medication must be monitored very closely for maintenance of appropriate levels and steady blood thinning, CoQ10 should be used with warfarin only under careful supervision by your health care provider."

My understanding is that foods containing vitamin K1 can be taken with warfarin so long as the amount eaten is consistent each day. The same may be true for taking CoQ10. I don't know. Talk with your doctor.

Interactions of CoQ10 with other medications can be positive or negative...

"If you are currently being treated with any of the following medications, you should not use CoQ10 without first talking to your health care provider."

If you are taking any of these medications, I encourage you to read the above linked article and talk with your doctor...

Daunorubicin and doxorubicin; Blood pressure medications; Blood-thinning medications; Timolol; and other medications...

"Other -- Medications that can lower the levels of coenzyme Q10 in the body include statins for cholesterol , including atorvastatin (Lipitor), lovastatin (Mevacor), pravastatin (Pravachol, and simvastatin (Zocor), fibric acid derivatives for cholesterol, including gemfibrozil (Lopid), beta-blockers for high blood pressure, such as atenolol (Tenormin), labetolol (Normodyne), metoprolol (Lopressor or Toprol), and propranolol (Inderal), and tricyclic antidepressant medications, including amitriptyline (Elavil), doxepin (Sinequan), and imipramine (Tofranil)."

My doctor, he said NO. He said 'you put de lime in de coconut, drink em both down.' I am on thinners so cannot take the supplement. But I am an omnivore. and have access to the natural sources so my diet is not deficient.