struggling with bg

There are not a lot of carbs in half a pack of salad and half slice of ham so that is probably why your BG dropped.Do you watch the amount of carbs that you do eat?

m_cooper.

Please read the previous post from Sue. You do not appear to have had enough carbs to elevate your Bg levels by a significant amount.

Ken

m_cooper said:

i have been really struggling with bg anything from 5.3 up to 15 after meals.this afternoon bg8 went for a 30 min walk and it went down to 6.7 then i had half a packet of salad and 1/2 slice of ham,2 hours after dinner it was 6.3 a miracle for me.how come it has gone down after dinner as i thought it went up

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You could say that having a lower amount of carbs might be a good idea for keeping your BGs under control, but I would never undermine the advice of the NHS suggesting that you keep stuffing yourself with Carbs! :shock:

This one has always confused me, i was also told in the early days by the NHS get some carbs down you, porridge, oats, etc etc, and now im being told cut down on the carbs. confusing.

Hi oned.

Don't be confused, read the success stories here. Look in the low carb Diabetes area. See the results. That should remove any confusion and if not - ask a question or two. You'll get the answers.

Ken.

Even those of us who are not low carbers, still restrict carbs. If you follow a low glycemic load diet, only small amounts of carbs are advised at any one time - and those with a high GL to be avoided altogether - this means any kind of rice other than basmati rice for example.

There seems to be no consistency in advice given. I was diagnosed in April and the advice was to keep an eye on GI and although I was advised to eat carbs - only small amounts at a time.

Others seem to have been encouraged to eat carbs ad lib!

Bye the way - I am feeling a bit naughty because I had a fig roll with my coffee this morning - but only one.

And there's another group too: those who don't restrict carbs at all! BUT they are likely to be T1 and therefore on insulin. Essentially if you eat carbs, your body needs a way to deal with the glucose produced, or you're in big trouble...

There's definitely a disparity in the advice offered - I only discovered GI when I started on a pump 5 years ago, but have counted carbs since first diagnosis.

The medical profession gets fixated on things.
At the moment it's FATS
If you cut fats, which they advise, you need something to take their place. So since Proteins are supposed to injure your kidneys :twisted: (Which is rubbish) the only alternative is carbs. Now even the medics know that sugar leads tto Blood glucose, they advise "Complex" carbs, Ie Starch, which weight for weight turns into double the amount of BG that Table sugar does.
the ideas that don't cross a medical mind very often are: "don't replace sugars and fats. Eat less"
Or "cut the food group that you can't process"
Then there are Food pyramids and the Healthy Eating Plate.
All based on no scientific research and desined to become "Facts"
then they found out that low fat is bad for inants and that some fats are essential to adults too.

Romola said:

Bye the way - I am feeling a bit naughty because I had a fig roll with my coffee this morning - but only one.

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I adore fig rolls a distant memory now though...

To answer the two questions posed - you need to reduce the amount of carbs you eat, by how much it up to you.

Do not listen to the 'eat plenty of carbs' nonsense. All type 2 diabetics who have good control, without the use of insulin, have reduced their carb intake to a lesser or greater extent.

Choose your carbs carefully.Your meter should be your guide. Personally I don't like my post meal figures to go out of the low sixes so I avoid foods that take me above that. Others are happier going higher.

Some people choose to adopt a strategy of eating as few carbs as possible (under 50g a day) whilst others choose foods that have a low GI (or foods where the sugars/carbs are absorbed slowly).

Carbs raise blood sugar levels. Protein far less than carbs and fats barely hhave an impact on blood glucose. Therefore , foods high in fibre, protein and fat (although this is the controversial one to some) are the foods to stick to.

Starchy foods like cereals, bread, rice, potatoes, pasta, pastries, biscuits and sugary foods should be avoided or eaten in limited quantities. I also avoid most fruits apart from berries. Eat plenty of greens too and you'll be fine.

hanadr said:

The medical profession gets fixated on things.
At the moment it's FATS
If you cut fats, which they advise, you need something to take their place. So since Proteins are supposed to injure your kidneys :twisted: (Which is rubbish) the only alternative is carbs. Now even the medics know that sugar leads tto Blood glucose, they advise "Complex" carbs, Ie Starch, which weight for weight turns into double the amount of BG that Table sugar does.
the ideas that don't cross a medical mind very often are: "don't replace sugars and fats. Eat less"
Or "cut the food group that you can't process"
Then there are Food pyramids and the Healthy Eating Plate.
All based on no scientific research and desined to become "Facts"
then they found out that low fat is bad for inants and that some fats are essential to adults too.

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Hana, thats a series of sweeping statements and I don't recognise it at all in the recent dietary advice I've been either been given or read from reputable sources. The best all in one source that I have found on the internet at the moment is the Harvard Nutrition source. It is firmly evidenced based and is well referenced.


The terms complex and simple sugars (ie through their chemical division) are no longer considered helpful or more importantly valid in dietary terms.
This article from the Harvard site discusses the pros and cons of the varying sorts of carbohydrates It gives a brief introduction to the glycemic index. It even discusses low carb diets and gives brief suggestions as to ways to follow them whilst also getting adequate intakes of vitamins, minerals, and phytonutrients.
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/what-should-you-eat/carbohydrates-full-story/index.html 2)

In another part of the site: The Harvard pyramid (again based on evidence)
At the bottom and most important, exercise and not eating too much for your activitity level.
At the top eat sparingly red meat and butter ( saturated fat and colon cancer risk) but also at the top (eat sparingly or not at all)
White bread, white rice, white pasta, other refined grains, potatoes, sugary drinks, and sweets because they "can cause fast and furious increases in blood sugar that can lead to weight gain, diabetes, heart disease, and other chronic disorders."
fats and oils such as olive, canola, soy, corn, sunflower, peanut, and other vegetable oils, trans fat-free margarines, nuts, seeds, avocadoes, and fatty fish such as salmon are considered healthy and sit alongside vegetables fruit and whole grains as forming the basis of the diet.
see http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/what-should-you-eat/pyramid-full-story/index.html
There are other evidence based pyramids available based upon Asian, Latin, Mediterranean, and vegetarian diets.


Finally this leaflet from the British Dietetic association gives similar advice ( perhaps less strongly condemning refined carbs but it most definitely doesn't use the phrase 'plenty of carbs) in a simple form for people with diabetes . It is (in my opinion) much better than some of the leaflets from British sources.
http://www.bda.uk.com/foodfacts/071114Diabetes.pdf
Doczones advice on using a meter is also extremely important since different foods affect people in very different ways. (for example I find some proteins particularly eggs have a larger and faster glucose response in my body than appears to be the case in other peoples)

Trouble is Phoenix that often GPs and practice nurses are way behind the latest nutritional research. The 'eat plenty of carbs' mantra is still out there and is the advice a lot of newly diagnosed diabetics hear.

Doczoc said:

Trouble is Phoenix that often GPs and practice nurses are way behind the latest nutritional research. The 'eat plenty of carbs' mantra is still out there and is the advice a lot of newly diagnosed diabetics hear.

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Yes, unfortunately that seems to be the case.
I'm lucky in one way because circumstances forced me to to do my own research.

I agree with you Doc. A friend of mine who is 'looked after' by the Practice DN was just recently telling him to 'eat plenty of starchy carbs ?' His words, not mine.

After I persuaded him to just lower the intake of said carbs, his Bg levels are down dramatically, he feels better and he is losing weight for the first time in years ! His DN can't understand it. Couldn't possibly be the change in diet - could it ? :?

Ken.

Phoenix.

I too did my research, unfortunately a lot of Diabetics don't get that chance. They are already way down the line to a complication filled future.

 
This is from your link
 
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionso ... index.html

Insulin resistance isn't just a blood sugar problem. It has also been linked with a variety of other problems, including high blood pressure, high levels of triglycerides, low HDL (good) cholesterol, and excess weight. In fact, it travels with these problems so often that the combination has been given the name metabolic syndrome. (1) Alone and as part of the metabolic syndrome, insulin resistance can lead to type 2 diabetes, heart disease, and possibly some cancers.

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Do you suggest I ditch the diet that has overcome all these problems.
 
From your next link:
 
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionso ... index.html
 

Building bone and keeping it strong takes calcium, vitamin D, exercise, and a whole lot more. Dairy products have traditionally been Americans' main source of calcium and, through fortification, vitamin D. But most people need at least 1,000 IU of vitamin D per day, far more than the 100 IU supplied by a glass of fortified milk. (See the multivitamins section, below, for more information on vitamin D needs.) And there are other healthier ways to get calcium than from milk and cheese, which can contain a lot of saturated fat. Three glasses of whole milk, for example, contains as much saturated fat as 13 strips of cooked bacon. If you enjoy dairy foods, try to stick mainly
with no-fat or low-fat products. If you don't like dairy products, taking a vitamin D and calcium supplement offers an easy and inexpensive way to meet your daily vitamin D and calcium needs.

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Take look at the following

The Survival Advantage of Milk and Dairy Consumption: an Overview of Evidence from Cohort Studies of Vascular Diseases, Diabetes and Cancer.
Conclusions: Set against the proportion of total deaths attributable to the life-threatening diseases in the UK, vascular disease, diabetes and cancer, the results of meta-analyses provide evidence of an overall survival advantage from the consumption of milk and dairy foods.

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http://www.jacn.org/cgi/content/abstrac ... type=HWCIT

Your final link.
Oh dear Phoenix this is the information that led to many of us seeking help on this forum, especially T2 non insulin dependants who can’t cover the carbs. You obviously agree with the need to test BG, in light of the many T2 newbies we see being denied the means to test, and we are only scratching the surface here there must thousands of others who are being told your only T2 an annual HbA1c will suffice. Would you be prepared to recommend a diet based on your link to them.

http://www.bda.uk.com/foodfacts/071114Diabetes.pdf

Take a look at this Power point presentation in what I think is a NHS training module, you may recognise the Plate Model

http://www.cmft.nhs.uk/directorates/men ... abetes.ppt

The following is from the initial Exeter DUK LC study, the results from the long term study were presented to the DUK conference in March of this year, and we still await publication of the study.
  

The results of an initial study of a low carbohydrate diet has surprised many experts who thought that the relative increase in fat content would result in a worsening of glycaemic control and a worsening of lipid profiles rather than completely the opposite. Whilst this work has not changed national guidelines it has made it clear that further work is needed
in this area such as the long-term study funded by Diabetes UK in Exeter. This has also led to the idea that a low carbohydrate diet may indeed be the logical extension of a low glycaemic index diet that has been favoured by many dietitians.

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So the even some Experts are surprised, perhaps  they should have seen the following study; some of many links relating to the benefits of LC diets, I’ve got loads more if you want them all coming to a similar conclusion.
 

We conclude that weight loss induced by CR favorably alters the secretion and processing of plasma lipoproteins, rendering VLDL, LDL, and HDL particles associated with decreased risk for atherosclerosis and coronary heart disease.

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http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/abstract/136/2/38

Conclusions Mediterranean and low-carbohydrate diets may be effective alternatives to low-fat diets. The more favorable effects on lipids (with the low-carbohydrate diet) and on glycemic control (with the Mediterranean diet) suggest that personal preferences and metabolic considerations might inform individualized tailoring of dietary interventions. (ClinicalTrials.gov number, NCT00160108 [ClinicalTrials.gov] .)

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http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/short/359/3/229
 

CONCLUSIONS: These results support the concept that both hyperinsulinemia and a low-fat diet increase DNL, and that DNL contributes to hypertriglyceridemia.

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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12499321
 
One thing you may have overlooked is the role of carbs in cholesterol;
 

Lichtenstein and Van Horn3 extensively reviewed this approach a few years ago. Examination of their evidence suggests that a low-fat dietary regimen will produce a result opposite to the desired effect: triglyceride levels will actually increase.

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http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articl ... tid=151984
 
http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/2009/ ... rates.html
 
Finally answer me this, since going low carb I have at least doubled my weekly intake of dairy products this includes double cream at least 5 x284ml cartons, 6 to 8 pints whole milk and large amounts of cheese, why have my cholesterol levels improved, and why have I not piled on the pounds seeing I’m eating the very foods that we are told to avoid because they lead to obesity and elevated cholesterol.

By the way I made no objection to you posting in LC forum, I think we could be of help with your Jacket Potato addiction :wink:

Kind Regards
Graham
 
 
  
 
 
 
 
  
 
 
 
 

Graham, the Harvard source is a synthesis of modern evidence based nutritional advice. Read it, follow up their evidence and accept or reject it as you wish.If you want to keep throwing in various obscure papers may I sugest a better place to debate them is the bad science forum, where I believe they have already discussed Mr Taubes.
I sometimes find it rather strange that we end up arguing about quite small amounts, your 'low carb' study the other day had people on 139g carb per day yet I on average probably only eat about 10g more, but still manage to include wholegrains , veg and fruits.I 'm sure that extra 10 g is taken up by running an average of 4 miles a day yet I'm considered an evil 'high carber'. This division is not particularly helpful to anyone.

To be honest I haven't got either the time or the energy to research and debate this evening. My husband would be furious too, its our 36th Weddding Anniversary.
Goodnight

Edited as first part written in haste ... never a good idea

.Incidently I rarely eat jacket potatoes as they are high GI, my original comment said
' My only quibble (from a diabetic point of view) is that jacket potatoes are surprisingly high gi so work quite quickly, I would add some sort of fat to 'slow' it down.'

Phoenix.

Can I wish you both a happy Anniversary. Now surely you have better things to do than hang around here.

Ken

Come back and tell us all about type 2 diabetes when you're not so busy, Phoenix.

Happy anniversary!