Swollen legs and ankles - Lasix or leg cramps?

[BaliRob]

Having been totally priced out from continuing with my specialist who had been treating me for
Diabetes Type 2, Chronic Heart Failure and a Kidney condition - I am now left with 'tree trunk'
legs and ankles and only this Forum for advice.

Having kept them at bay for a number of years using 1 x 40mg Lasix per day it became obvious that
the Lasix had to be increased to x1 morning and x 1 at night and my doctor agreed; when no noticeable
effect was achieved he agreed that I should use 3 x 40mg daily.

For members who remember my previous rants about the world's worst nocturnal cramps - it immediately
became obvious that if the oedema does not kill me then the cramps (which had started coming back with
a vengeance) would. Thanks to a good lady member on this Forum I have been using Magnesium Citrate
quite effectively; but even Magnesium cannot cope with over 40mg Lasix per day.

Respected journals state a correlation between Lasix and nocturnal leg cramps exists undoubtedly.

My question is - are there any members in a similar situation or, if there are, have they been able to solve
the condition please?

 

[Enclave]

I cannot help with Lasix, or kidney problems .. did used to have comments about my kidneys from the heart nurse but they were glossed over, but I can sympathise with your health problems.
Just to clarify .. I do have heart failure and T2 diabetes .. some time ago I got oedema in both legs .. horrid as it was the heart failure nurse would press her thumb into my lower leg and the indent stayed to what seemed like weeks. I was told to restrict my fluid intake and measure my fluid output .. so that the intake matched the output .. needless to say this this nothing to help anything ,, then I was put onto diuretics .. living hell .. not only were were my legs painful I had to struggle to get to the loo ever half hour ... Not happy and yes the leg and hand cramps were unbearable .. Now the wife who over thinks things (and not wanting to panic you) thinks the cramps are muscle spams .. yes all agreed .. and the heart is a muscle (I have had a few heart attacks) ... ok I panicked at that point .. I was also offered palliative care from my heart nurse ..
So with nothing left to loose I went on the LCHF diet/way of eating .. My weight was up to 21st at that point, heart nurse not worried as it was my fluid retention !!!!!! So as I type this I am now mid 15 st .. it took just over 2 years for my body to get down to this new weight .. (I refused to take the water tablets before I went LCHF) Now I cannot remember the last time I had cramp.. My legs are like skinny matchsticks compared to when I had the water retention. I have my life back ..
I don't know if you will have problems with LCHF and kidney problems .. or if you are already eating low carb high fat .. but if your not, please give it a try.. If your like I was .. looking at the end of the road so to speak, you like I have nothing left to loose. I am vegetarian, so not overeating protein .. at the start of my LCHF adventure I reduced my carbs to just 20g a day, and swapped all my low fat foods to hight fat.. and added salt again to my diet .. That was about three years ago now and all my blood tests are in the normal range .. I feel good and have my life back.

 

[BaliRob]

I cannot help with Lasix, or kidney problems .. did used to have comments about my kidneys from the heart nurse but they were glossed over, but I can sympathise with your health problems.
Just to clarify .. I do have heart failure and T2 diabetes .. some time ago I got oedema in both legs .. horrid as it was the heart failure nurse would press her thumb into my lower leg and the indent stayed to what seemed like weeks. I was told to restrict my fluid intake and measure my fluid output .. so that the intake matched the output .. needless to say this this nothing to help anything ,, then I was put onto diuretics .. living hell .. not only were were my legs painful I had to struggle to get to the loo ever half hour ... Not happy and yes the leg and hand cramps were unbearable .. Now the wife who over thinks things (and not wanting to panic you) thinks the cramps are muscle spams .. yes all agreed .. and the heart is a muscle (I have had a few heart attacks) ... ok I panicked at that point .. I was also offered palliative care from my heart nurse ..
So with nothing left to loose I went on the LCHF diet/way of eating .. My weight was up to 21st at that point, heart nurse not worried as it was my fluid retention !!!!!! So as I type this I am now mid 15 st .. it took just over 2 years for my body to get down to this new weight .. (I refused to take the water tablets before I went LCHF) Now I cannot remember the last time I had cramp.. My legs are like skinny matchsticks compared to when I had the water retention. I have my life back ..
I don't know if you will have problems with LCHF and kidney problems .. or if you are already eating low carb high fat .. but if your not, please give it a try.. If your like I was .. looking at the end of the road so to speak, you like I have nothing left to loose. I am vegetarian, so not overeating protein .. at the start of my LCHF adventure I reduced my carbs to just 20g a day, and swapped all my low fat foods to hight fat.. and added salt again to my diet .. That was about three years ago now and all my blood tests are in the normal range .. I feel good and have my life back.

@ Enclave, this is one of the most helpful replies I have ever read on this Forum for any complaint resulting from Diabetes.

I was being treated for kidney problems for 3 years. For a reason only known to my doctor he ordered an Echocardiogram which showed 63% left ventricle efficiency. As I left his examination room he said you do not have kidney problems - find yourself a heart specialist. I gave up all treatment after this for just over 2 years because the system both in the UK and Bali was failing me. Then, as I was losing my left leg because of the oedema making it almost impossible to walk, I went back to him. He denied ever saying that I do not have kidney problems and said that he recommended a heart specialist - WHAT CAN ONE DO?? He then wanted me to have both legs scanned at £150 for each leg (the clinician) was already in the hospital and this earlyevening. My costs for that day had already amounted to £500 - and, never having any health cover ever in Bali because I am too old, again turned tail and walked out - and still have a kidney condition and 'Elephant legs'.

Obviously I MUST follow your success - but living in Indonesia is totally different when trying to rely upon a STAPLE diet whereas I could always get what anyone would expect for such a diet from my local Joe Cohen's. In your case, with the greatest respect, part of your condition was due to being overweight. I have always been and still am an excellent weight of 82Kg and only went to 14 stone for some six months prior to my Diabetes diagnosis which is a usual symptom.

Don't the nurses know that dire thirst is part of Diabetes - try not taking enough fluids in the sub-tropics.

You can see I am lonely and do not have a better half to help with my diet for the past 21 years (I do go on a bit hahaha) BUT I promise I will take a serious look at implementing your suggestion and will report back to this Forum as to any success.

A great big thank you.

 

[Enclave]

Thanks .. I was not over weight before I started filling up with water retention ... It took less than 2 years for my weight to skyrocket and it was blamed on my failing heart !!! I ate what is the uk advised diet of high carbs and low fat .. each time I went back to the Dr I was told to eat more carbs !!!!!
Hope you find a way through this .. LCHF is quite easy if your a vegetarian ,, don't know about where you are.. so you must find your own way from there. I was completely written off by my doctors .. now they are stunned at the turn around in my health.

 

[BaliRob]

Regretfully - no not a vegetarian. But I am sure there must be a way to compensate - I am not Livingstone but I will still give it a go. Thanks for the second reply - much appreciated

 

[FluffyBeing]

Having been totally priced out from continuing with my specialist who had been treating me for
Diabetes Type 2, Chronic Heart Failure and a Kidney condition - I am now left with 'tree trunk'
legs and ankles and only this Forum for advice.

Having kept them at bay for a number of years using 1 x 40mg Lasix per day it became obvious that
the Lasix had to be increased to x1 morning and x 1 at night and my doctor agreed; when no noticeable
effect was achieved he agreed that I should use 3 x 40mg daily.

For members who remember my previous rants about the world's worst nocturnal cramps - it immediately
became obvious that if the oedema does not kill me then the cramps (which had started coming back with
a vengeance) would. Thanks to a good lady member on this Forum I have been using Magnesium Citrate
quite effectively; but even Magnesium cannot cope with over 40mg Lasix per day.

Respected journals state a correlation between Lasix and nocturnal leg cramps exists undoubtedly.

My question is - are there any members in a similar situation or, if there are, have they been able to solve
the condition please?

Yes. I have had some of the most excruciating leg cramps at night. I was told different things. I was not sure if it was connected to type 2 diabetes. I am new to diabetes but notice shoulder pain and leg pain.

What has helped me is quitting bread that has gluten so that I can absorb the minerals needed to help with the cramping. Magnesium Vanadium, calcium and selenium help work wonders. I also take something called "Oceans Gold". with legs Yoga and stretching can help a great deal. It is weird that the more athletic a person is the more minerals they need due to sweating out electrolytes. I also think Edgar Cayce was totally right about diabetes. He advised drinking about a 1/4 cup of diluted grape juice (no sugar added) before eating. so that looks like 1/4 cup grape juice with 1/4th cup water or sparkling water prior to eating. I put it in a wine glass and no one is the wiser.

It would be wise to be more alkaline in our eating. Sweet potatoes and fruit do help a great deal. Have no fear of fruit. It is cracker and bread and all those processed fast foods that are getting us into trouble. We were eating raw fruits and veggies without problems for the last 300,000.000 years of evolution. Then along came the stripped down sugars and stripped down grains. A whole fructose sugar has a 8 molecules of sugar instead of a monosaccharide like table sugar. way bad for us.

Yoga walking and water walking and swimming are excellent for preventing leg cramps.

Take care and let me know if that starts working. I also like Cherry minerals. Mineral work better in concert with other minerals.

 

[BaliRob]

@FluffyBeing - I wish to give you a speedy thank you - I will digest everything you have written and come back to
you. Just one point - what is/are Cherry minerals please?

 

[Enclave]

I don't quite agree with quick fix supplement ... but the wife makes mt take cherry capsules to stop my gout

 

[BaliRob]

I don't quite agree with quick fix supplement ... but the wife makes mt take cherry capsules to stop my gout

Thank you again for trying to help me - I think they would be called, 'Hens' Teeth' here

 

[Munkki]

Hi, what a difficult topic. I have had problems with swollen ankles while it has been hot. I googled it, then followed Dr. Google's advice by drinking a lot of water, while making sure I take in minerals as well, so sufficient, not too much, salt. Doing exercise as well, and Yoga (legs up basically), my ankles look a lot better right now.

 

[BaliRob]

Hi, what a difficult topic. I have had problems with swollen ankles while it has been hot. I googled it, then followed Dr. Google's advice by drinking a lot of water, while making sure I take in minerals as well, so sufficient, not too much, salt. Doing exercise as well, and Yoga (legs up basically), my ankles look a lot better right now.

@ Munkki - if only I had had your problem which is transitory - I never had swollen ankles here (a sub-tropical) before my
Diabetes/Heart/Kidneys (you tell me which because the doctors do not know - but difficult venous return does seem to be the precise reason to me) started playing up. If I take too much water - then H2O's Law will say more water in the legs and ankles-yes? I like your Yoga Legs Up idea but remember - if I spend 24 hours a day doing that which should get the water to come back to the body - I will die from the lethergy. Please elucidate - "I take in minerals as well"

 

[Enclave]

I think to be honest .. If someone have not experienced water retention due to heart failure .. its difficult for anyone to understand how trapped it makes you feel.. I was told not to keep my legs up as its bad for my heart and will no nothing for my oedema in my legs .. The restricted water/liquid intake worked a tiny bit .. but its horrid sucking on crushed ice when all you want is a big mug of hot tea, also recording every thing in and out .. when you forget and have to grab the nearest thing to catch the outward flow of liquid ... LCHF way of eating is a walk in the park compared to all that .. Then when the doctor forgets to tell you to stop reducing the liquid intake as he has given you the max amount of diuretic tablets known to man... Well ok that was quite funny .. but not at the time
Don't know about you @BaliRob but to be honest my T2 was no big deal .. after the years of heart problems ..

 

[BaliRob]

@ Enclave I went to my doctor some 9 years ago back in the UK - because I was getting unnaturally exhausted carrying garden refuse every Friday to our visiting huge open freight container in a local car park. Wonderful service but, if one was late - they had to climb a ladder to tip one's bags over the top. I was on a dig and concrete a driveway for the car at the time so this was continuous for weeks but, after the third bag, I found myself leaning on the car whilst getting my energy back. Being 67 at the time I thought perhaps this was natural.

However, the doctor took absolutely no notice of this exhaustion and it was only me continuing to stay seated which prompted her to take blood. The very next day she telephoned me to say she was sorry but that I was a Diabetic.

EASY THEN - YES? Rob is a Diabetic but of course it has not been so simple ever since.

Finally, I am scared regarding the leg cramps; they can kill - my first attack caused me to fall unconscious for
five hours covered in blood - my wife had died quite a few years earlier so lived alone. The CRAMPS ARE
PROPORTIONATE TO INTAKE OF LASIX - one x 40mg ok but x 2 then x 3 - nothing can protect me
from this agony. Quinine Sulphate is 100% effective at keeping leg cramps at bay but 100% effective
in killing long-term users such as me. The FDA has banned its over-the-counter supply or sale because of
the proven deaths.

Finally plus - as I now have no confidence or the money to pursue my condition with my doctor - we still
do not know what is causing the retention is it 1) CHF, 2) Kidney problems, 3) Diabetes or 4) a Venous
return problem ????

Yes, like you I thought I had got off light for quite a long time after the Diabtes diagnosis - blood was
only 12 at that time hahaha.

Thank you for your support

 

[MagicFirefly]

@ Enclave I went to my doctor some 9 years ago back in the UK - because I was getting unnaturally exhausted carrying garden refuse every Friday to our visiting huge open freight container in a local car park. Wonderful service but, if one was late - they had to climb a ladder to tip one's bags over the top. I was on a dig and concrete a driveway for the car at the time so this was continuous for weeks but, after the third bag, I found myself leaning on the car whilst getting my energy back. Being 67 at the time I thought perhaps this was natural.

However, the doctor took absolutely no notice of this exhaustion and it was only me continuing to stay seated which prompted her to take blood. The very next day she telephoned me to say she was sorry but that I was a Diabetic.

EASY THEN - YES? Rob is a Diabetic but of course it has not been so simple ever since.

Finally, I am scared regarding the leg cramps; they can kill - my first attack caused me to fall unconscious for
five hours covered in blood - my wife had died quite a few years earlier so lived alone. The CRAMPS ARE
PROPORTIONATE TO INTAKE OF LASIX - one x 40mg ok but x 2 then x 3 - nothing can protect me
from this agony. Quinine Sulphate is 100% effective at keeping leg cramps at bay but 100% effective
in killing long-term users such as me. The FDA has banned its over-the-counter supply or sale because of
the proven deaths.

Finally plus - as I now have no confidence or the money to pursue my condition with my doctor - we still
do not know what is causing the retention is it 1) CHF, 2) Kidney problems, 3) Diabetes or 4) a Venous
return problem ????

Yes, like you I thought I had got off light for quite a long time after the Diabtes diagnosis - blood was
only 12 at that time hahaha.

Thank you for your support

I suffer with idiopathic pitting odema.
Basically my lower legs, ankles and feet swell for an unknown reason. I went through numerous testing. Now I manage with some attractive stockings and not much else. I did find raising the bottom of my mattress with a spare quilt to be of great use. My GP told me to keep my legs raised whenever possible. As an active 32yr who works 12.5 shifts at the hospital, to me that means in bed.

My problem with diuretics is that they can cause damage to the kidneys which is why I was discontinued.
Do you have enough salt in your diet? Not enough can cause leg cramps.

 

[BaliRob]

I suffer with idiopathic pitting odema.
Basically my lower legs, ankles and feet swell for an unknown reason. I went through numerous testing. Now I manage with some attractive stockings and not much else. I did find raising the bottom of my mattress with a spare quilt to be of great use. My GP told me to keep my legs raised whenever possible. As an active 32yr who works 12.5 shifts at the hospital, to me that means in bed.

My problem with diuretics is that they can cause damage to the kidneys which is why I was discontinued.
Do you have enough salt in your diet? Not enough can cause leg cramps.

@MagicFirefly Hello and thank you for your contribution. At least you know why you have swollen legs and ankles which is not fair because everybody does not have the problem. I dare not ask you your weight - you being a lady - but herein maybe lies an answer.. - Surely the correlation between 12.5 hour shifts has been recognised?

Oh yes, I suppose I am as well informed about all remedies for the nocturnal leg cramps. And, yes, not taking enough salt can be a contributory factor. But it is not ok for CHF - so, what I do is to have a phial of loose salt by the bed at night which will be the first defensive measure by wetting my finger, placing it on the salt and then onto my tongue, If only say a 50% attack then 3/ 4 minutes the onset will subside. If very angry and I know they WILL get serious I take STOPS LEG AND FOOT CRAMPS IN ABOUT ONE MINUTE. This is a MIRACULOUS cure even the worst will disappear with 3/4 minutes.

This is available from Iherb in the US - be warned - it has a grotesque taste and could make one sick the first time. Without this I would be frightened to go to bed.

As mentioned earlier to previous poster - I use Magnesium Citrate 250mg x twice a day and I am certain that this has REDUCED THE FREQUENCY of attacks but cannot protect one if taking more than 1 x 40mg Lasix per day.

Thank you for your help.

 

[Munkki]

@ Munkki - if only I had had your problem which is transitory - I never had swollen ankles here (a sub-tropical) before my
Diabetes/Heart/Kidneys (you tell me which because the doctors do not know - but difficult venous return does seem to be the precise reason to me) started playing up. If I take too much water - then H2O's Law will say more water in the legs and ankles-yes? I like your Yoga Legs Up idea but remember - if I spend 24 hours a day doing that which should get the water to come back to the body - I will die from the lethergy. Please elucidate - "I take in minerals as well"

Hi @BaliRob ,

Okay, I see I might not be of much help here and can only speak for myself. I was a bit shocked when I first saw my ankles swollen, and worried about my organs, the role of diabetes, etc. I read that drinking more water could help, as the body would then retain less water. I also saw that I had actually been drinking less. So, I gave it a try, with a few more glasses of water during the day, combined with some exercise, and now my ankles are slim again. I do hope that this problem has only been transitory!

With minerals I mean sea salt, and generally what I consider a good diet for me.

Sorry, if my experience is not really useful, or not even the same as yours.

Wish you all the best x

 

[BaliRob]

Hi @BaliRob ,

Okay, I see I might not be of much help here and can only speak for myself. I was a bit shocked when I first saw my ankles swollen, and worried about my organs, the role of diabetes, etc. I read that drinking more water could help, as the body would then retain less water. I also saw that I had actually been drinking less. So, I gave it a try, with a few more glasses of water during the day, combined with some exercise, and now my ankles are slim again. I do hope that this problem has only been transitory!

With minerals I mean sea salt, and generally what I consider a good diet for me.

Sorry, if my experience is not really useful, or not even the same as yours.

Wish you all the best x

I love you for trying to help - this is what the Forum is all about. The comfort that other people care and want to help is the BEST medication. So pleased that your ankles are slim again - I remember that I did not have this problem when I used to cycle some 10km every day for shopping - then I bought a Honda oh dear oh dear - saved me billions of Rupiah over 6 years in taxi fares but now look at my feet and ankles hahaha