Too few carbs?

LittleGreyCat · Jul 23, 2017

@CherryAA @bulkbiker Very interesting that when you ramped up the carbohydrates once your BG stabilised it stayed stable but you started putting on weight (presumably fat).

That suggests that your pancreas has moved back towards normal function. As long as you don't peak too high or too long.

Or you may just have cleared your insulin resistance and your pancreas has been reasonably O.K. all along.

Which was something I was going to speculate about before I got distracted by all this interesting stuff.

CherryAA · Jul 23, 2017

LittleGreyCat said:
@CherryAA @bulkbiker Very interesting that when you ramped up the carbohydrates once your BG stabilised it stayed stable but you started putting on weight (presumably fat).

That suggests that your pancreas has moved back towards normal function. As long as you don't peak too high or too long.

Or you may just have cleared your insulin resistance and your pancreas has been reasonably O.K. all along.

Which was something I was going to speculate about before I got distracted by all this interesting stuff.

I've certainly been at the 99% less than 7.8 and 91% less than 6.7 mmol for a while now. I noticed recently that any spikes which do happen don't do beyond 11 and don't stay high for more than a few minutes. Again a "Normal" reaction.. On a higher carb diet my fasting averages are in the low sixes, whereas on a low carb diet it can easily be under 5. The weight simply piles on though, so left unchecked for more than a couple of days I would be right back where I started very quickly - so I don't think moving to a higher carb environment generally would work for me - " cured" or not.

badcat · Jul 23, 2017

Odin004 said:
Hi @Guzzler

As @Bluetit1802 says, providing insulin (or meds) are appropriately adjusted, you shouldn't be at a higher risk of a hypo - and I doubt you'd starve, providing you're getting sufficient calories and nutrients - I suppose keeping an eye on your weight would determine whether you're eating enough. There are quite a few people who eat very low carb indeed (I'm thinking in particular of @bulkbiker and @Kristin251) who are doing very well.

For me, I found that dropping my carbs to around 45g per day caused me to need more insulin - whether this is because of insulin resistance, or the liver producing more sugar, I can't know; my specialist diabetes dietician says that it's quite often observed that people on low carb diets have to up their insulin per unit carb (I'm type 1) - but she doesn't know why. I posted about this here:

https://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/low-carb-but-high-sugars-advice-please.123659/

As you'll see from the above link, quite a few people have very convincing and plausible explanations about what's happening when you go too low carb, and I suspect there's a unique overlap of these issues for each individual (which explains why some can have no carbs and be fine; whilst it causes insulin resistance in others).

My experience chimes with yours.
I was doing fine on 25 50g carbs for 5 years but BS control was getting a little more difficult so dropped carbs below 20g a couple of weeks ago - it really didnt suit my system at all BS readings started to go higher ( up to 10/11 mark with marked overnight DP spikes and ketones beyond the level I see as ok indicator of nutritional ketosis ( highest was 5.6 and I felt like c*** so upped carbs back to around 35 mark which dropped ketones to 0.5-1.5 level which I feel much better on) BS is more stable on this level too although liver dumps are still evident overnight. also a strange impact is that although I went through menopause 8 years ago, Ive been having hot flush like feelings which I relate to gluconeogenesis / thermogenesis which would also fit with the liver dumps. Still adjusting things to rediscover my "sweet spot" on carbs
Medics have recently questioned whether im really type 2 - now raising the question of monogenic diabetes which would presumably mean insulin insufficiency as well as / instead of insulin resistance

Bluetit1802 · Jul 23, 2017

CherryAA said:
I've certainly been at the 99% less than 7.8 and 91% less than 6.7 mmol for a while now. I noticed recently that any spikes which do happen don't do beyond 11 and don't stay high for more than a few minutes. Again a "Normal" reaction.. On a higher carb diet my fasting averages are in the low sixes, whereas on a low carb diet it can easily be under 5. The weight simply piles on though, so left unchecked for more than a couple of days I would be right back where I started very quickly - so I don't think moving to a higher carb environment generally would work for me - " cured" or not.

I'm probably teaching grandma to suck eggs, but when you upped your carbs did you drop your fats and protein accordingly, ie by going back to basics and counting calories?

badcat · Jul 23, 2017

Fleegle said:
Thanks for that @Robbity very helpful.
I am not an expert on these things - but I don't think your brain can run on fat and ketones it can only run on Glucose which your liver produces from stored sources.

As i understand it, the glucose / glycogen stores in the liver are used up within 24-36 hours - after that the liver does its version of alchemy,( creating glucose out of protein ( gluconeogenesis, rather than turning base metals into gold which would be a much more - welcome form of alchemy!)

CherryAA · Jul 23, 2017

Bluetit1802 said:
I'm probably teaching grandma to suck eggs, but when you upped your carbs did you drop your fats and protein accordingly, ie by going back to basics and counting calories?

Its fair to say that I've eaten more during all the celebrations, but as part of that eaten less " deliberate " fats . Basically I lose weight on about 1250 calories, stay stable on about 1500 calories and gain it on about 1800 calories regardless of what the composition of the actual diet is. The difference is that when its LCHF I find it much easier to stick to so there are many less days when its crept beyond 1250, On a high carb, low fat diet I find keeping that low almost impossible.

CherryAA · Jul 23, 2017

badcat said:
As i understand it, the glucose / glycogen stores in the liver are used up within 24-36 hours - after that the liver does its version of alchemy,( creating glucose out of protein ( gluconeogenesis, rather than turning base metals into gold which would be a much more - welcome form of alchemy!)

I'm 50 hours into a fast where my total cumulative calorie intake over the 50 hours has been 250 calories mainly fats. I've walked 10 km, and swum a mile and a half . so far my ketones are still only registering only 0.3 - so my liver is certainly working away creating glucose at present. eiher that or I had a big opening carb store ! I find it extremely had to get ketones about about 0.5 Will be interesting to see if the fasting achieves higher numbers ( If I get that far)

serenity648 · Jul 23, 2017

Fleegle said:
Ok -- this will be my last post in this thread - it isn't feeling very friendly.
I know we do not need any carbs - I made that point. It was about whether we needed to exercise the pancreas. I was simply trying to give an opinion (because I am not a DR) that someone posted earlier that the brain does not need glucose and I think that it does.

That was not the point of my thread which was about exercising the pancreas and I will leave it now because much earlier in the post someone corrected that.

WHOOPS!! sorry, I wasnt disagreeing or trying to be difficult. I was sort of clarifying it all out loud, in my post, to make sure I had properly understood. Didnt mean to upset you.

Odin004 · Jul 23, 2017

badcat said:
My experience chimes with yours.
I was doing fine on 25 50g carbs for 5 years but BS control was getting a little more difficult so dropped carbs below 20g a couple of weeks ago - it really didnt suit my system at all BS readings started to go higher ( up to 10/11 mark with marked overnight DP spikes and ketones beyond the level I see as ok indicator of nutritional ketosis ( highest was 5.6 and I felt like c*** so upped carbs back to around 35 mark which dropped ketones to 0.5-1.5 level which I feel much better on) BS is more stable on this level too although liver dumps are still evident overnight. also a strange impact is that although I went through menopause 8 years ago, Ive been having hot flush like feelings which I relate to gluconeogenesis / thermogenesis which would also fit with the liver dumps. Still adjusting things to rediscover my "sweet spot" on carbs
Medics have recently questioned whether im really type 2 - now raising the question of monogenic diabetes which would presumably mean insulin insufficiency as well as / instead of insulin resistance

How interesting that you were fine for 5 years before things changed - and glad to hear that upping the carbs helped somewhat; I quite agree your ketones were too high. I wonder whether the hot flushes are related to the diabetes, as not sure if you'd actually feel gluconeogenesis / thermogenesis (though I'm no expert on this). Also, good to hear your team are being proactive about the possibility of quite a rare form of diabetes - that's quite unusual - hope you get some answers!

Too few carbs?

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