Too few carbs?

[Odin004]

Hi @Guzzler

As @Bluetit1802 says, providing insulin (or meds) are appropriately adjusted, you shouldn't be at a higher risk of a hypo - and I doubt you'd starve, providing you're getting sufficient calories and nutrients - I suppose keeping an eye on your weight would determine whether you're eating enough. There are quite a few people who eat very low carb indeed (I'm thinking in particular of @bulkbiker and @Kristin251) who are doing very well.

For me, I found that dropping my carbs to around 45g per day caused me to need more insulin - whether this is because of insulin resistance, or the liver producing more sugar, I can't know; my specialist diabetes dietician says that it's quite often observed that people on low carb diets have to up their insulin per unit carb (I'm type 1) - but she doesn't know why. I posted about this here:

https://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/low-carb-but-high-sugars-advice-please.123659/

As you'll see from the above link, quite a few people have very convincing and plausible explanations about what's happening when you go too low carb, and I suspect there's a unique overlap of these issues for each individual (which explains why some can have no carbs and be fine; whilst it causes insulin resistance in others).

 

[bulkbiker]

I can certainly confirm that I don't starve while maintaining a very low carb regime..yesterday I had a (for me) a higher carb day of 27.8g cabbage, raspberries and some lambs liver for lunch being the main culprits.. but I still managed to get 3,700 calories in. Today back to my usual 16.3g with 2,203 calories mainly milk in tea, double cream in coffee and creme fraiche.

 

[Kristin251]

One thing with very low carb is considering protein and blousing for it. I bolus for half but probably could use a touch more. Gluconeogenesis is an odd duck depending on the other components in the meal. If I don't have enough fa tor fiber protein will spike just as harsh and high as carbs.

It doesn't mean it's right or wrong, just a different mechanism of the bodies processes.

 

[DavidGrahamJones]

Thoughts welcomed.

My experience has shown that there are times that I can tolerate some "obvious" carbs as I call them and there are times when I definitely can't.

I managed three years on about 40 gms carb per day with extra at weekends (a treat for being good all weeks and only toast). Then last Christmas BG and HbA1c were all over the place, nothing to do with excesses because there weren't any.

I have followed a very strict low protein/low carb/low fat regime for the last 8 weeks with great success, BG wise, and things have straightened out, usually. There are still times when BG goes up for no apparent reason and times when BG stays steady. Last night I had a nature valley health bar and not even a flinch. I'll not be pushing the boat out too much suffice to say I can't really predict what's going to happen with my BG.

BTW, FreeStyle Libre is helping me spot trends.

 

[Robbity]

We don't actually need carbs at all, though we do apparently need glucose and our livers are capable of providing/generating this for us regardless of any carbs we may or may not have eaten. We can manage very nicely on fats as our main fuel source so the only reason I see that I may "need" some carbs is for the vitamins, minerals and fibre that I get from eating low carb veggies, fruits and nuts...(Though I know @NoCrbs4Me will beg to differ on this requirement!)

So I personally see no actual need to make my poor pancreas work overtime trying to deal with any extra carbs that serve no real use now that I've got my body using fats as fuel again. And from personal experience my brain is much happier and clearer running on ketones/fat than it was in recent years when required to use carbs as its main fuel.

Robbity

 

[Fleegle]

We don't actually need carbs at all, though we do apparently need glucose and our livers are capable of providing/generating this for us regardless of any carbs we may or may not have eaten. We can manage very nicely on fats as our main fuel source so the only reason I see that I may "need" some carbs is for the vitamins, minerals and fibre that I get from eating low carb veggies, fruits and nuts...(Though I know @NoCrbs4Me will beg to differ on this requirement!)

So I personally see no actual need to make my poor pancreas work overtime trying to deal with any extra carbs that serve no real use now that I've got my body using fats as fuel again. And from personal experience my brain is much happier and clearer running on ketones/fat than it was in recent years when required to use carbs as its main fuel.

Robbity

Thanks for that @Robbity very helpful.
I am not an expert on these things - but I don't think your brain can run on fat and ketones it can only run on Glucose which your liver produces from stored sources. I think it is the only organ in the human body that needs glucose.

I completely agree with your points. My post (which others have explained why I need not worry) was that I have seen people on low carb going lower and lower. And my exact point was yours really - I don't want to eat carbs, but I do want to eat vegetables, some berries, cream - all in super moderation but I didn't want to get to the stage where I would be unable to do so.

But I am saved apparently by protein which gives the pancreas something to do when carbs are too low.

 

[Resurgam]

Thanks for that @Robbity very helpful.
I am not an expert on these things - but I don't think your brain can run on fat and ketones it can only run on Glucose which your liver produces from stored sources. I think it is the only organ in the human body that needs glucose.

I completely agree with your points. My post (which others have explained why I need not worry) was that I have seen people on low carb going lower and lower. And my exact point was yours really - I don't want to eat carbs, but I do want to eat vegetables, some berries, cream - all in super moderation but I didn't want to get to the stage where I would be unable to do so.

But I am saved apparently by protein which gives the pancreas something to do when carbs are too low.

Brains love ketones and are perfectly happy to use them - some people feel more clear headed when fat adapted.
There are some cancers which cannot use ketones as they lack the mechanism to do so, they must rely on glucose as their energy source.
I suspect that the people who are dropping their carbs down are resistant to fat burning, and so their metabolisms require a harder push to get to ketosis - but that is not a bad place to be. Just because they are reporting their situation on the way down to lower levels of carbs doesn't mean that they will always have to stay at that level - there were millions of books sold describing how to drop to low carb and then increase again once it had had the desired effects.

 

[Robbity]

Thanks for that @Robbity very helpful.
I am not an expert on these things - but I don't think your brain can run on fat and ketones it can only run on Glucose which your liver produces from stored sources. I think it is the only organ in the human body that needs glucose.
.

Check what Google has to say on the topic then : https://scholar.google.co.uk/schola...ved=0ahUKEwigicy2lZ_VAhVkJsAKHTpaDtEQgQMIIjAA


But most interestingly nature definitely believes that brains work on ketones as babies fed breast milk are in a state of ketosis which helps build up their baby brains.

And as a slight aside: ketogenic diets have been used for many years as a method of preventing brain seizures in epilepsy, particularly in young children, and research is being done on ketogenic diets and Alzheimers. So two examples of relations between brain function and ketones, in addition to my personal experience escaping from a number of years of debilitating high carb brain fog to the relief of ketogenic brain clarity...

Robbity

PS I see that @Resurgam has beaten me to it...

 

[Resurgam]

One of my grandsons called me his 'go faster granny' recently.

 

[serenity648]

disclaimer: the rest of this post is purely anecdotal and my own personal experience.

Since I began low carbing my ME has improved a lot, and during my active periods, my brain is sharper and I can focus better and concentrate for longer.

When I also added Vit D3 and B12 I experienced another level of improvement after about 3 weeks.

I still have ME, but my periods of useful time are longer and better and I am sleeping in longer blocks of time too. And this is while I have had blood poisoning to recover from as well.

 

[Fleegle]

Check what Google has to say on the topic then : https://scholar.google.co.uk/schola...ved=0ahUKEwigicy2lZ_VAhVkJsAKHTpaDtEQgQMIIjAA


But most interestingly nature definitely believes that brains work on ketones as babies fed breast milk are in a state of ketosis which helps build up their baby brains.

And as a slight aside: ketogenic diets have been used for many years as a method of preventing brain seizures in epilepsy, particularly in young children, and research is being done on ketogenic diets and Alzheimers. So two examples of relations between brain function and ketones, in addition to my personal experience escaping from a number of years of debilitating high carb brain fog to the relief of ketogenic brain clarity...

Robbity

PS I see that @Resurgam has beaten me to it...

Well I don't want to get into an argument about it - I have read a lot - I mean a lot of research papers and I did google to, which frankly is like playing darts with a blindfold and got:-
Does your brain need glucose
Glucose is a form of sugar that your body creates from the carbohydrates you eat. Once the glucose is made it gets into the bloodstream so that your muscles and organs can use it for energy. In fact, your brain needs at least 125 to 150 grams of glucose per day to function.
I will read the article you posted another time - but to be honest isn't the core of my question.

I think we are off topic now so will agree to disagree. As I say - I am far from an expert but learning every day. I think that the brain does need Glucose to survive. I understand the cancer one, we all know cancer loves BG but that wasn't my point.

My point was - at the very beginning of this - if you don't use it do you lose it - that seems to be answered with NO because even without carbs the body breaks protein down which cause BG which cause the Panceas to work and am very happy with that.

 

[Fleegle]

Check what Google has to say on the topic then : https://scholar.google.co.uk/schola...ved=0ahUKEwigicy2lZ_VAhVkJsAKHTpaDtEQgQMIIjAA


But most interestingly nature definitely believes that brains work on ketones as babies fed breast milk are in a state of ketosis which helps build up their baby brains.

And as a slight aside: ketogenic diets have been used for many years as a method of preventing brain seizures in epilepsy, particularly in young children, and research is being done on ketogenic diets and Alzheimers. So two examples of relations between brain function and ketones, in addition to my personal experience escaping from a number of years of debilitating high carb brain fog to the relief of ketogenic brain clarity...

Robbity

PS I see that @Resurgam has beaten me to it...

Great article I have just read on ketones a fuel for the body instead of glucose - really enlightening.
The entire article is about using fat and ketones as a better source for the brain to work.
Paragraph 3 states:=
https://www.sott.net/article/228186...-High-fat-Diet-Can-Help-the-Brain-Work-Better

It is true that some parts of some brain cells can only burn glucose, but fortunately our bodies can turn protein into glucose through a process known as gluconeogenesis. This fact means that while there are essential requirements for both fat or protein (meaning we would die without eating at least some fat and at least some protein), we can live quite happily while consuming no carbohydrate at all. That's not saying there aren't some disadvantages or side effects to a so-called "zero carb" diet, but it won't cause the massive health problems and death that consuming zero fat or zero protein would.

 

[serenity648]

Great article I have just read on ketones a fuel for the body instead of glucose - really enlightening.
The entire article is about using fat and ketones as a better source for the brain to work.
Paragraph 3 states:=
https://www.sott.net/article/228186...-High-fat-Diet-Can-Help-the-Brain-Work-Better

It is true that some parts of some brain cells can only burn glucose, but fortunately our bodies can turn protein into glucose through a process known as gluconeogenesis. This fact means that while there are essential requirements for both fat or protein (meaning we would die without eating at least some fat and at least some protein), we can live quite happily while consuming no carbohydrate at all. That's not saying there aren't some disadvantages or side effects to a so-called "zero carb" diet, but it won't cause the massive health problems and death that consuming zero fat or zero protein would.

therefore, we dont need carbohydrates, as our bodies can use fats and proteins to make the glucose. We need the glucose, but it doesnt have to be made from carbs.

 

[NoCrbs4Me]

Well I don't want to get into an argument about it - I have read a lot - I mean a lot of research papers and I did google to, which frankly is like playing darts with a blindfold and got:-
Does your brain need glucose
Glucose is a form of sugar that your body creates from the carbohydrates you eat. Once the glucose is made it gets into the bloodstream so that your muscles and organs can use it for energy. In fact, your brain needs at least 125 to 150 grams of glucose per day to function.
I will read the article you posted another time - but to be honest isn't the core of my question.

I think we are off topic now so will agree to disagree. As I say - I am far from an expert but learning every day. I think that the brain does need Glucose to survive. I understand the cancer one, we all know cancer loves BG but that wasn't my point.

My point was - at the very beginning of this - if you don't use it do you lose it - that seems to be answered with NO because even without carbs the body breaks protein down which cause BG which cause the Panceas to work and am very happy with that.

Yes, even without eating any carbs, your liver will still produce glucose and your pancreas insulin.

 

[Kristin251]

It is also said, I can't remember who but someone will, that while we're switching our fuel source to fat that we do require much more glucose than after we're fat adapted.
And gluconeogenesis from protein and fat is enough. That's why @NoCrbs4Me is still alive and kicking!!

Many of us do quite well with less than 20 carbs per day, me being one of them.

As long as your meter stays within your goals eating veggies and fruits then I'd eat them too! My meter tells me I can't.

 

[Fleegle]

therefore, we dont need carbohydrates, as our bodies can use fats and proteins to make the glucose. We need the glucose, but it doesnt have to be made from carbs.

Ok -- this will be my last post in this thread - it isn't feeling very friendly.
I know we do not need any carbs - I made that point. It was about whether we needed to exercise the pancreas. I was simply trying to give an opinion (because I am not a DR) that someone posted earlier that the brain does not need glucose and I think that it does.

That was not the point of my thread which was about exercising the pancreas and I will leave it now because much earlier in the post someone corrected that.

 

[Fleegle]

It is also said, I can't remember who but someone will, that while we're switching our fuel source to fat that we do require much more glucose than after we're fat adapted.
And gluconeogenesis from protein and fat is enough. That's why @NoCrbs4Me is still alive and kicking!!

Many of us do quite well with less than 20 carbs per day, me being one of them.

As long as your meter stays within your goals eating veggies and fruits then I'd eat them too! My meter tells me I can't.

I do too.

 

[LittleGreyCat]

Just to clarify (I hope).

From my reading there are some parts of the brain which require glucose to function and other parts which are very happy to run on ketones (think it is about 50/50). Something to do with the permeability of the blood/brain barrier and relative sizes of ketones and glucose molecules (I think).

For the truly fat adapted the glucose required to keep these bits of the brain going is more or less the whole requirement for glucose. (Nearly?) everything else runs on ketones. Ah! Red blood cells need it as well.

We are all aware that even on zero carbs we still have glucose in our blood and if the level drops too far (hypo) then the brain bugs out. Low/zero carbers still have BG levels and HbA1c readings.

Again as already stated glucose can be generated via gluconeogenesis from protein. I have even read that there is a very inefficient metabolic pathway to get the glyceride part from triglycerides and turn that into glucose. So you don't have to eat carbohydrates to meet your minimal glucose requirements if you are keto adapted. Eating zero carbs, though, is quite hard for most people.

On the original question, insulin does more than just regulate glucose in the blood, so we are always needing and producing insulin and the pancreas (while still working) is always producing insulin.

Does it need a work out now and then?

I don't think so, because as others have posted it will ramp up again after a couple of days if you increase your carbohydrates (so still working) but during those couple of days you are running abnormally high BG levels until your pancreas changes gear and comes on stream more fully.

A different view might be that it could be worth ramping up the carbohydrates every 6 - 12 months just to see if your BG control has improved. Just in case. However if the answer is "no" then you have run high BG for a while for no obvious benefit.

 

[CherryAA]

I think if it was just a "last meal" effect, then you would only need to eat one high carb meal before an OGTT, not several days of increased carbs.

On one occasion during my last 4 years of very low carbing, I tried eating carby food while I had a freestyle libre sensor on. For the first few days, high spikes after every carby meal. After that, no matter how much carbs I ate, my BG never spiked very high. During that time my BG still didn't spike very high when I had a carby meal even if I did a day of very low carb prior to the carby meal. I did gain about 15 pounds during that time (2 weeks), though.

That is my problem too, I can eat the carbs and it doesn't seem to send the blood sugars that out of kilter - I can tell I am eating them but the range remains within " normal" parameters. The weight just piles on though. I've but on 6 kilos in as many weeks despite actually still being on a " diet" just with more carbs included . I'm certainly not eating above my assumed BMR on average. hence my blog - trying fasting for the first time to try to achieve my goal of 85 kg before my next medical appointment on 22 August -my one year anniversary. 52 hours in so far - cumulative calorie intake 540 - still not back in proper ketosis yet (0.3 bloods) I must have piled in even more carbs than I thought

 

[Fleegle]

Just to clarify (I hope).

From my reading there are some parts of the brain which require glucose to function and other parts which are very happy to run on ketones (think it is about 50/50). Something to do with the permeability of the blood/brain barrier and relative sizes of ketones and glucose molecules (I think).

For the truly fat adapted the glucose required to keep these bits of the brain going is more or less the whole requirement for glucose. (Nearly?) everything else runs on ketones.

We are all aware that even on zero carbs we still have glucose in our blood and if the level drops too far (hypo) then the brain bugs out. Low/zero carbers still have BG levels and HbA1c readings.

Again as already stated glucose can be generated via gluconeogenesis from protein. I have even read that there is a very inefficient metabolic pathway to get the glyceride part from triglycerides and turn that into glucose. So you don't have to eat carbohydrates to meet your minimal glucose requirements if you are keto adapted. Eating zero carbs, though, is quite hard for most people.

Brilliant summary.