Trying to understand the Newcastle diet

[AndBreathe]

Have you had a really good read through the information on here, and the associate hyperlinks?

http://www.ncl.ac.uk/magres/research/diabetes/reversal.htm

 

[vit90]

Have you had a really good read through the information on here, and the associate hyperlinks?

http://www.ncl.ac.uk/magres/research/diabetes/reversal.htm

Yes and a lot more Rather than repeat myself and bore you and everyone else rigid my uncertainty surrounds the limited addressing of insulin resistance, which is the actual disease that needs to be treated in T2 diabetes, in the Prof.Taylor and Newcastle Uni research.

 

[vit90]

Have you had a really good read through the information on here, and the associate hyperlinks?

http://www.ncl.ac.uk/magres/research/diabetes/reversal.htm

While I'm at it - how about yourself (hope you don't mind). Your HbA1c figures are now consistently normal are they not? (highly impressive, whatever, and well done - you are a greate role model!). Do you consider yourself cured?

 

[AndBreathe]

While I'm at it - how about yourself (hope you don't mind). Your HbA1c figures are now consistently normal are they not? (highly impressive, whatever, and well done - you are a greate role model!). Do you consider yourself cured?

I don't like labels, so won't adopt that one either.

I believe I presented with extreme insulin resistance which lead to blood scores in the diabetic ranges, which abated as I lost weight and modified my diet. It is my unproven belief that my pancreas and liver are now operating in a pretty healthy way. I have continued to eat a reduced carb diet as I feel extremely fit and well on it, and I would hate to re-instigate the insulin resistance by gaining weight and/or shocking my organs. There's virtually no chance I would be offered tests to assess my pancreatic function on the NHS, and frankly I don't fancy an OGTT much. I neither fancy the carb cramming required as preparation, and if I'm going to carb up, I'd rather choose my carbs than submit to a sugary drink first thing in the morning. I have the option to self-fund a C-Peptide or Insulin tests, without any input from my GP. At some stage my curiosity might be pricked enough, but not today.

I am no longer on my surgery's diabetic register, but will continue to have annual HbA1cs in recognition of being higher risk for flawed (bodily) glycaemic management. I'm content with that arrangement .

 

[vit90]

I don't like labels, so won't adopt that one either.

I believe I presented with extreme insulin resistance which lead to blood scores in the diabetic ranges, which abated as I lost weight and modified my diet. It is my unproven belief that my pancreas and liver are now operating in a pretty healthy way. I have continued to eat a reduced carb diet as I feel extremely fit and well on it, and I would hate to re-instigate the insulin resistance by gaining weight and/or shocking my organs. There's virtually no chance I would be offered tests to assess my pancreatic function on the NHS, and frankly I don't fancy an OGTT much. I neither fancy the carb cramming required as preparation, and if I'm going to carb up, I'd rather choose my carbs than submit to a sugary drink first thing in the morning. I have the option to self-fund a C-Peptide or Insulin tests, without any input from my GP. At some stage my curiosity might be pricked enough, but not today.

I am no longer on my surgery's diabetic register, but will continue to have annual HbA1cs in recognition of being higher risk for flawed (bodily) glycaemic management. I'm content with that arrangement .

Sounds good to me I would certainly like to get to your level. I too am happy to permanently modify my diet to smaller portions and to a balance of less carbs and more healthy fats - that would be no problem at all to me. However, I would like to be able to indulge in the occasional sweet or starchy treat without scaring myself witless.

May I ask if weight loss was part of your programme to normalise your HbA1c? (Edit - sorry, you of course mentioned weight loss, what I really meant is are you now at your target weight?)

 

[AndBreathe]

Sounds good to me I would certainly like to get to your level. I too am happy to permanently modify my diet to smaller portions and to a balance of less carbs and more healthy fats - that would be no problem at all to me. However, I would like to be able to indulge in the occasional sweet or starchy treat without scaring myself witless.

May I ask if weight loss was part of your programme to normalise your HbA1c? (Edit - sorry, you of course mentioned weight loss, what I really meant is are you now at your target weight?)

All of my activity, at the outset, was focused on getting my bloods into range. At that stage, I considered any weight loss along the way to be a welcome "value-add". In reality, as my numbers came into line I trimmed up rapidly. I didn't weigh myself for the first almost three months, as I was overseas and didn't actually have a set of scales. By the time I weighed myself I was pretty much at my "target" weight. I now weigh much less than that as stopping weight loss wasn't as simple as you might think!!

My current stats are 160cm tall, weighing 49kg, which equates to a BMI of 19.1, so I am very slight. I wear a size 6-8. For me, about the only down-side is that I really, really feel the cold!! Thankfully, we'll be heading back to the sunshine just after the festivities.

 

[vit90]

All of my activity, at the outset, was focused on getting my bloods into range. At that stage, I considered any weight loss along the way to be a welcome "value-add". In reality, as my numbers came into line I trimmed up rapidly. I didn't weigh myself for the first almost three months, as I was overseas and didn't actually have a set of scales. By the time I weighed myself I was pretty much at my "target" weight. I now weigh much less than that as stopping weight loss wasn't as simple as you might think!!

My current stats are 160cm tall, weighing 49kg, which equates to a BMI of 19.1, so I am very slight. I wear a size 6-8. For me, about the only down-side is that I really, really feel the cold!! Thankfully, we'll be heading back to the sunshine just after the festivities.

Interesting! Didn't Bluetit say she had to work hard to stop losing too much weight as well. A BMI of under 20 is very impressive. The guy who was featured in a lot of newspaper articles about how he did the Newcastle diet in 11 days - his BMI ended up very low indeed. The pessimistic side of me says my target of under 22 is not ambitious enough. I'm 24.6 at the moment and friends and relatives are already expressing their concern at my gaunt appearance (I feel absolutely fine and I know there is more around the middle to come off and I am actively working to build up some upper body muscle tone). I have felt the cold too - which is commonly mentioned by others.

 

[AndBreathe]

Interesting! Didn't Bluetit say she had to work hard to stop losing too much weight as well. A BMI of under 20 is very impressive. The guy who was featured in a lot of newspaper articles about how he did the Newcastle diet in 11 days - his BMI ended up very low indeed. The pessimistic side of me says my target of under 22 is not ambitious enough. I'm 24.6 at the moment and friends and relatives are already expressing their concern at my gaunt appearance (I feel absolutely fine and I know there is more around the middle to come off and I am actively working to build up some upper body muscle tone). I have felt the cold too - which is commonly mentioned by others.

In my view, there is no magic BMI score we should be aiming for. Professor Taylor talks about "personal fat thresholds", and I buy this concept. It adequately reflects and/or supports the notion that not all overweight people have diabetes and not all diabetics are overweight. Undoubtedly, at the outset, I was carrying a few too many pounds, but I wasn't outrageously heavy, but I did notice an almost linear connection with my weight loss (which initially I couldn't quantify), with blood scores. A few others have talked about this, and also mentioned the notching effect. By that I mean, I would be steadily be recording scores of x or y for a short while, then I would "suddenly" notice my scores drop by a notch. Not a steady downward slope, but a step down. The process would then repeat. My blood pressure behaved similarly; in terms of it's downward progress into healthy ranges.

It's been an utterly fascinating journey, during which I have learned and come to appreciate a massive amount.

 

[vit90]

Yes - I wasn't diabetic when I was almost 16 stone and on request of my doctor I did reduce my weight gradually (as was advised) over a period of about two years by about 2 stone and it stayed down. But I was still overweight by around a stone - not much considering. And then a few years later I find I am diabetic - go figure

I haven't been testing a lot although my meter seems to be producing slightly higher numbers than compared to my venous fasting glucose done before I started the diet. But everything I have been doing including diet and exercise is making me feel a lot better and I have never experienced a low blood sugar turn as a result of the diet. My appetite has also moderated and even on the low calories I'm currently on I now rarely feel famished. I also find the whole thing fascinating - especially as there is a complicated mix of old and new thinking out there!

 

[douglas99]

It's a very complex relationship between your liver. your pancreas, and the rest of your body, with regard to glucose, and insulin.

Your body demands glucose, and your liver responds, then your pancreas sees the increase in BG, and releases insulin.
All things being normal, the body uses the insulin to utilise the glucose, and when happy, tells the liver to stop releasing glucose, and the pancreas stops releasing insulin.

If you're insulin resistant, the body can't use the glucose, so keeps demanding more, and you release insulin as well, so both levels rise in T2's.
The pancreas doesn't really have any say at this stage.
It's more down to your body being insulin resistant, and your liver, (and food) increasing your BG.

Other things happen to mess up the messages sent in this chain,

Your pancreas can also go into burn out eventually, and stops releasing insulin.
Metformin alters the way your liver releases glucose.

You can stop eating carbs, or go low carb, so you train your body to stop expecting to have to cope with glucose.

But, if your liver, or your pancreas, or even your muscles, and other organs, have too much fat, it can, apparently, interfere with the normal hormones/enzymes releases by all, or any of these.

And that messes up the whole process.

The other thing to bear in mind, is that is in a balanced system.
If you continually overeat, your BG will be higher than your muscles demand, so your pancreas will always be pumping insulin, and your liver will always be trying to store glucose, not release it.

The Newcastle diet shocks the system into the opposite extreme.


But, at the end of day, it depends on what causes the T2, and I doubt there is just one answer.
I tried the Newcastle diet, and I can certainly say it does improve your eating habits, and trains you to eat less, which is a very good long term goal. Type 2 is never going to be an eat all you can buffet for me again.

I also shifted about a stone in 5 weeks, which was my short term goal as well.

it also gave me an insight into my BG readings, compared to the overall levels, or maybe reserves of energy in my body.

when my BG was in the 4's, it meant I was low, got tired quickly, and although I lost weight, it wasn't sustainable.
when I'm in the 5's, I feel good, my reserves are good.
when I've in the 6's, I still feel good, my reserves are good, but I suspect I'm overeating, and may be putting on weight.

But i also believe the converse is true.
If I under eat, my BG drops too low for my own comfort.
Eat the right amount, of a balanced diet, and my BG will be spot on.
Overeat, and my BG while still being ok, creeps up bit. and I'll gain weight.

 

[vit90]

In my view, there is no magic BMI score we should be aiming for. Professor Taylor talks about "personal fat thresholds", and I buy this concept. It adequately reflects and/or supports the notion that not all overweight people have diabetes and not all diabetics are overweight.

Yes - I completely agree.

As you have such consistently good HbA1c numbers I am curious to know if you are extremely strict about what you eat or do you allow yourself the occasional treat? Let's say your target limit on calories in one day would be 2000. If you normally limited your carbs to 60g a day, for example, would you allow yourself, say, 150g (say some nice bread and jam or cake at a birthday or whatever) while maintaining your 2000 calorie limit. I don't mean every day but on special occasions?

 

[vit90]

It's a very complex relationship between your liver. your pancreas, and the rest of your body, with regard to glucose, and insulin.

Your body demands glucose, and your liver responds, then your pancreas sees the increase in BG, and releases insulin.
All things being normal, the body uses the insulin to utilise the glucose, and when happy, tells the liver to stop releasing glucose, and the pancreas stops releasing insulin.

If you're insulin resistant, the body can't use the glucose, so keeps demanding more, and you release insulin as well, so both levels rise in T2's.
The pancreas doesn't really have any say at this stage.
It's more down to your body being insulin resistant, and your liver, (and food) increasing your BG.

Other things happen to mess up the messages sent in this chain,

Your pancreas can also go into burn out eventually, and stops releasing insulin.
Metformin alters the way your liver releases glucose.

You can stop eating carbs, or go low carb, so you train your body to stop expecting to have to cope with glucose.

But, if your liver, or your pancreas, or even your muscles, and other organs, have too much fat, it can, apparently, interfere with the normal hormones/enzymes releases by all, or any of these.

And that messes up the whole process.

The other thing to bear in mind, is that is in a balanced system.
If you continually overeat, your BG will be higher than your muscles demand, so your pancreas will always be pumping insulin, and your liver will always be trying to store glucose, not release it.

The Newcastle diet shocks the system into the opposite extreme.


But, at the end of day, it depends on what causes the T2, and I doubt there is just one answer.
I tried the Newcastle diet, and I can certainly say it does improve your eating habits, and trains you to eat less, which is a very good long term goal. Type 2 is never going to be an eat all you can buffet for me again.

I also shifted about a stone in 5 weeks, which was my short term goal as well.

it also gave me an insight into my BG readings, compared to the overall levels, or maybe reserves of energy in my body.

when my BG was in the 4's, it meant I was low, got tired quickly, and although I lost weight, it wasn't sustainable.
when I'm in the 5's, I feel good, my reserves are good.
when I've in the 6's, I still feel good, my reserves are good, but I suspect I'm overeating, and may be putting on weight.

But i also believe the converse is true.
If I under eat, my BG drops too low for my own comfort.
Eat the right amount, of a balanced diet, and my BG will be spot on.
Overeat, and my BG while still being ok, creeps up bit. and I'll gain weight.

I realise the Newcastle diet will have a range of efficacy on different people but most of the examples shown see the subject come off medication if they were on it originally - is that not the case with you as your sig. refers to metformin, etc.

Are you still on the diet and do you still want/need to lose additional weight?

 

[douglas99]

Yes - I completely agree.

As you have such consistently good HbA1c numbers I am curious to know if you are extremely strict about what you eat or do you allow yourself the occasional treat? Let's say your target limit on calories in one day would be 2000. If you normally limited your carbs to 60g a day, for example, would you allow yourself, say, 150g (say some nice bread and jam or cake at a birthday or whatever) while maintaining your 2000 calorie limit. I don't mean every day but on special occasions?

I will jump in here as well, as I actually have a very similar number, but a higher fasting level, so probably a smaller spread overall.

I normally eat to my meter, but certainly don''t worry about odd treats. (my daughters Lemon drizzle cake is one we have in common) but I do portion control, and keep to my calorie limit.

 

[douglas99]

I realise the Newcastle diet will have a range of efficacy on different people but most of the examples shown see the subject come off medication if they were on it originally - is that not the case with you as your sig. refers to metformin, etc.

Are you still on the diet and do you still want/need to lose additional weight?

I started the Newcastle diet from a reasonable BMI, so didn't really need to lose weight.
I have reduced my neds overall, but am still on 500mg of Metformin.
I don't want to lose any more weight.
I'm not on any strict diet, I balance calories though, but from to day, and eat to my meter

 

[AndBreathe]

Yes - I completely agree.

As you have such consistently good HbA1c numbers I am curious to know if you are extremely strict about what you eat or do you allow yourself the occasional treat? Let's say your target limit on calories in one day would be 2000. If you normally limited your carbs to 60g a day, for example, would you allow yourself, say, 150g (say some nice bread and jam or cake at a birthday or whatever) while maintaining your 2000 calorie limit. I don't mean every day but on special occasions?

My first few months I was incredibly strict. I was shocked and traumatised, having been diagnosed three weeks before leaving the UK for several months, away from the NHS and most of my other support networks. I felt I needed to be very strict, in order mimimise the chances of having problems whilst away from those support networks. In retrospect, it probably did me a favour, in that I focused; immediately and completely.

I am a focused, target driven individual, and to be honest, my issues are more likely to be now, moving forward, when I have reached a very acceptable place, and therefore not really having a place to raise the bar to. When working at something, stability isn't a great goal for me, so I am having to find a different place to focus.

My tastes have adjusted over time, and no am now extremely sweet sensitive. We eat out quite a bit, and I can always tell where sugar has been added to even savoury dishes, and these days I'd just rather they didn't do that! I haven't had any chocolate or biscuits since diagnosis. Not a single morsel. I'm not at all bothered.

Our diet is extremely varied, and I am fortunate that I have always been able to tolerate modest portions of rice and breads. My OH is the main cook in our house, and he's a great cook. We live well. When we are at our other place, we are almost always at friends' for Sunday breakfast, and I eat whatever is being served. I have never wanted anyone's food choices to revolve around me. I would find that toe curlingly bad. Our Sunday breakfasts are often scrambled eggs and smoked salmon, waffles (though I'll pass on the disgusting maple syrup), bacon sarnies, a full English, kedgeree or buckwheat pancakes. (Not all at once; obviously !)

I still keep my food (and bloods) diary every day, as I find it keeps me on the straight and narrow, and if I find my blood scores are wandering, I can look back and usually I can see why. But, that said, I don't set myself a limit of x carbs and count as I go. I tend to just have one meal with meaningful carbs a day; but that could be any meal. I've had the occasional crisp, but I haven't, yet, felt like I wanted to clear the fridge in one go - aside from the odd time I have meandered under 3. But, to be honest, I was justifiably hungry, so go on and ate.

To be honest, I haven't planned too much around Christmas yet. We'll eat, and drink, extremely well, and we'll have all sorts of lovely food in. Whether I'll over indulge myself or not is undecided. I mean, when I saw my hairdresser in August, he gave me a couple of hand-made chocolates. They're still in the fridge, and they really ought to go out. I still enjoy my food, but its no longer a driver for me.

 

[vit90]

OK, that's very reassuring

 

[douglas99]

I realise the Newcastle diet will have a range of efficacy on different people but most of the examples shown see the subject come off medication if they were on it originally - is that not the case with you as your sig. refers to metformin, etc.

Are you still on the diet and do you still want/need to lose additional weight?

I am still on one metformin, I am undecided about this one, and even though all my tests are normal, I think I'll probably stay on it.
I also want to stay as a 'diabetic', I find the pros outweigh the cons, and don't think I need to be taken off the register. My gp has no desire to take me off, so I still get all the tests there. Bloods are done two to three months, plus all the other referrals.

 

[vit90]

I am still on one metformin, I am undecided about this one, and even though all my tests are normal, I think I'll probably stay on it.
I also want to stay as a 'diabetic', I find the pros outweigh the cons, and don't think I need to be taken off the register. My gp has no desire to take me off, so I still get all the tests there. Bloods are done two to three months, plus all the other referrals.

I have been told I will only be tested every six months but this will include a retina scan as that is what led to all this in the first place.

 

[vit90]

My first few months I was incredibly strict. I was shocked and traumatised, having been diagnosed three weeks before leaving the UK for several months, away from the NHS and most of my other support networks. I felt I needed to be very strict, in order mimimise the chances of having problems whilst away from those support networks. In retrospect, it probably did me a favour, in that I focused; immediately and completely.

I am a focused, target driven individual, and to be honest, my issues are more likely to be now, moving forward, when I have reached a very acceptable place, and therefore not really having a place to raise the bar to. When working at something, stability isn't a great goal for me, so I am having to find a different place to focus.

My tastes have adjusted over time, and no am now extremely sweet sensitive. We eat out quite a bit, and I can always tell where sugar has been added to even savoury dishes, and these days I'd just rather they didn't do that! I haven't had any chocolate or biscuits since diagnosis. Not a single morsel. I'm not at all bothered.

Our diet is extremely varied, and I am fortunate that I have always been able to tolerate modest portions of rice and breads. My OH is the main cook in our house, and he's a great cook. We live well. When we are at our other place, we are almost always at friends' for Sunday breakfast, and I eat whatever is being served. I have never wanted anyone's food choices to revolve around me. I would find that toe curlingly bad. Our Sunday breakfasts are often scrambled eggs and smoked salmon, waffles (though I'll pass on the disgusting maple syrup), bacon sarnies, a full English, kedgeree or buckwheat pancakes. (Not all at once; obviously !)

I still keep my food (and bloods) diary every day, as I find it keeps me on the straight and narrow, and if I find my blood scores are wandering, I can look back and usually I can see why. But, that said, I don't set myself a limit of x carbs and count as I go. I tend to just have one meal with meaningful carbs a day; but that could be any meal. I've had the occasional crisp, but I haven't, yet, felt like I wanted to clear the fridge in one go - aside from the odd time I have meandered under 3. But, to be honest, I was justifiably hungry, so go on and ate.

To be honest, I haven't planned too much around Christmas yet. We'll eat, and drink, extremely well, and we'll have all sorts of lovely food in. Whether I'll over indulge myself or not is undecided. I mean, when I saw my hairdresser in August, he gave me a couple of hand-made chocolates. They're still in the fridge, and they really ought to go out. I still enjoy my food, but its no longer a driver for me.

I'm looking forward to Christmas and easing off the diet and I will be doing some testing before and after what will be normal meals. I still want to lose a little weight over Christmas overall though.

 

[douglas99]

...........................................................My current stats are 160cm tall, weighing 49kg, which equates to a BMI of 19.1, so I am very slight. I wear a size 6-8. For me, about the only down-side is that I really, really feel the cold!! Thankfully, we'll be heading back to the sunshine just after the festivities.

They're interesting stats, particularly in the context of the Newcastle diet.

49kg puts you right on the very bottom of the BMI scale, barely more than a kg from underweight.
You would need to go up to 77kg to be even overweight. (Put on a massive 28kg, or more than half your existing body mass)

I would also guess if you're size 6 to 8, you're probably not a heavy eater now either.

It ties in to a larger degree with what I have found regarding BG as well.
Eating less than I need and the BG level decreases. Eating too much, it goes up.
Eating the right amount, I achieve 'normal' fasting. and normal 'HbA1c's), which remain very stable.

You are a much more petite frame than mine, which may go a long well into accounting for why your fasting levels are so low, as you aren't going to be on the normal percentiles of the population with regard to the amount of energy needed daily, and the amount of glucose conversion.

It certainly proves there are many causes/types of T2 though, as I went from obese to normal weight after diagnosis, I doubt you were never out of the normal weight range?