Type 2 and Supplements. Neuropathy.

[Tim55]

Hi

I have noticed occasional references to supplements that people report some success with - most recently on the new fasting BG levels thread.

There is some great information on a thread entitled "Help in dealing with neuropathy" in the "complications" section with some excellent references and posts by winnie53 and omnipod.

I was fortunate enough to come across this while looking for info about neuropathy but it seems to me that people who only hang out in the type 2 bit could be interested.

It is my belief that since taking Alpha Lipoic Acid, Benfotiamine and methyl cobolamine in an attempt to help my neuropathy I have seen a small but welcome step change downwards in my BS levels and it seems at least one other person has seen something similar with vitamin B3.

I thought it better to ask the specific question in a new thread rather than risk derailing the fasting levels one so I would like to ask what experiences people have had.

 

[Winnie53]

Tim55, it's both interesting and inspiring that the supplements you're taking are reversing your peripheral neuropathy in your feet and hands. And the unexpected further reduction in your blood glucose levels is wonderful.

So many excellent contributions have been made to the "Help in dealing with neuropathy" topic. I've re-read it three times and will continue to do so... http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/help-in-dealing-with-neuropathy.74653/page-5#post-915720

I'm glad you've started a new thread here for those who are hesitant to visit the "Diabetes Complications" forum.

 

[Winnie53]

For a variety of reasons - work, finances, onset of diabetes, and the death or serious illness of friends - I believe my health has been declining for about 10 years.

When I left employment in January 2015, I was battling what I thought was a urinary track infection, which I treated with a cranberry supplement for a couple of weeks. When that didn't work, I went to the doctor and learned there was no infection. For the bladder pain and discomfort, I was advised to take Azo. Wonderful stuff. It worked within a few days... http://www.azoproducts.com/products?gclid=CLul2azHnMcCFYpcfgodAJwKDQ

The doctor was still concerned so ordered a Comprehensive Metabolic Panel which revealed that my blood glucose level was 282 mg/dL (15.7 mmol/L).

In retrospect, it has been a tremendous blessing because it forced me to pay attention to my health. I'm grateful.

That was mid-February. I put off finding a new job and began my healing journey. I've spent the last 6 months researching, reflecting, eating a low carb diet, taking nutritional supplements, and walking daily.

I also use lab tests, quarterly, and blood glucose monitoring, 4 to 9 times a day, so I know what's working, and what's not, because there's no point in doing any of this if it's not working, right?

It's helping.

Fasting glucose has dropped from a high of 258 to 136 to 116 mg/dL (6.4 mmol/L).

HbA1c has dropped from 9.9% to 5.5% to 5.4%.

Weight has dropped from 160 pounds to 143 pounds (10 stone 3 pounds).

My triglyceride/HDL ratio has dropped from 2.86 to 2.46 to 2.27 (Desired ratio is <2).

High sensitivity C-reactive Protein - (Hs-CRP is a marker of inflammation; measures risk of cardiovascular disease in otherwise healthy individuals) - has dropped from 4.9 mg/L to 3.3 mg/L (Reference Range Relative Risk: <1 low; 1-3 average; >3 high mg/L).

However, I'm concerned because my Lipid Panel appears to be both improving and worsening.

Cholesterol has increased from 229 to 236 to 259 mg/dL (6.7 mmol/L)

Triglycerides have dropped from 126 to 123 to 116 mg/dL (3 mmol/L) - (Triglycerides were much higher in 2011, 171 mg/d (4.4 mmol/L) when I was diagnosed with non-celiac gluten sensitivity (NCGS) and stopped eating wheat, barley, rye, and oats)

HDL has increased from 44 to 50 to 51 mg/dL (1.3 mmol/L)

LDL has increased from 165 to 166 to 189 mg/dL (4.9 mmol/L) - (Not sure why though I have been on a bit of a bacon binge and have lost another 3 pounds in the last week. Thinking about getting a particle size and number test, but it costs $90. According to cardiologists Sinatra and Houston, if particle size is big, and particle number is low, I'm probably okay for now. Sinatra says the Triglyceride/HDL ratio is predictive of particle size. My ratio is 2.27, which is just above the desired ratio of <2. If my Hs-CRP test result hadn't dramatically improved from 4.9 to 3.3, I would be in a total panic right now.

To be continued...

 

[Tim55]

Hi winnie53

Thanks for your support

As I have should said before I have found more reasons to hope from reading omnipods post in that post than pretty much anywhere else and your input has been amazing.

I started this thread because a few people have commented their BS levels have dropped after taking certain supplements.

Mostly these have cropped up in the thread on fasting levels for type 2 which the mods are very much on to of right now and I wanted to give people the opportunity to post their experiences in a dedicated area.

I may have miss titled this thread or it may have been amended but either way it doesn't seem to be working as I hoped

 

[Winnie53]

Tim55, hopefully the second part of my post will better speak to your question. Thank you for your updates on your reversing neuropathy. Keep 'em coming.

For now it's enough to say that there are quite a few supplements and supplement formulations that improve blood glucose levels, but, I'm choosing not take them until most, if not all, my health conditions are stable, partly due to cost, partly due to only being able to make so many changes at once.

It will take a lot of time, but I'll try to put together a list later this year.

There are a few foundational nutritional supplements that I believe many type 2 diabetics should be taking for brain, heart, and vascular health: a multi vitamin and mineral supplement, B-complex, vitamin C, vitamin D3, magnesium citrate, and omega-3 fatty acids, DHA, and EPA from fish oil. If on a ketogenic LCHF diet, I'd add potassium citrate and salt to the magnesium citrate. If on a statin, I'd add CoQ10. And if on Metformin, I'd add vitamin B12.

Listening to cardiologist Mark Houston, M.D. the other day, I was shocked to hear him say that as vascular disease progresses, the capillaries are damaged first. (When he said that, it occurred to me that if the capillaries die, the nerves are next, which leads to peripheral neuropathy. That's why it's so important to repair and/or regrow those capillaries as soon as possible).

 

[Winnie53]

Continued...

When I began my healing journey, my goal was to get my blood glucose levels into the normal range as soon as possible. And when that didn't happen - (still hasn't) - I was frustrated and unhappy about it for quite some time. But during those first months, I realized I had a lot of other health problems needing attention too:

Brain (memory, ability to focus, sleep problems)
Thyroid (Subclinical Hyperpthyroidism)
Heart, cardiovascular system (angina, atherosclerosis)
Diabetes, type 2
Ulcerative Colitis

I follow the LCHF diet. These are the supplements I take - (many help more than one condition)...

I take a multi-vitamin and mineral supplement, B-complex, vitamin C, and an "eye protection" formulation, all made from organic, whole foods. I take fish oil, CoQ10, and vitamin K2 as MK-7, cod liver oil (for the vitamin A) and vitamin D3 for heart and cardiovascular health, K2, A & D for bone health too. I take magnesium citrate and potassium citrate daily, and salt every few days, to maintain my electrolyte balance on the LCHF diet. I take Meriva-500, a curcumin phytosome to calm inflammation. For my ulcerative colitis flare, I'm following a protocol outlined in the book, The Disease Delusion. The recommended nutritional supplements to heal the intestinal mucosal barrier are pantothenic acid (vitamin B5, 500 mg) and the amino acid L-glutamine (500 mg). I'm already taking zinc (15 mg), omega-3 fish oil (2 to 3 g), magnesium (200 mg) and a B-complex. It's working. Later this week I'm going to begin taking my first pro-biotic, Prescript-Assist.

Of all these supplements, I think the Meriva-500 has had some effect on bringing my blood glucose down.

So many books have helped me a long the way...

Brain Maker (2015) by neurologist David Perlmutter, M.D. http://www.amazon.com/Brain-Maker-Microbes-Protect-Brain–/dp/0316380105/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1439164518&sr=8-1&keywords=brain+maker
The Disease Delusion (2014) by Dr. Jeffrey S. Bland, co-founder of the Functional Medicine Institute, known as the father of functional medicine http://www.amazon.com/Disease-Delus...39165466&sr=8-1&keywords=the+disease+delusion
The Elimination Diet (2015) by nutritionist Tom Malterre, M.S., C.N., and Alissa Segersten http://www.amazon.com/dp/1455581887/ref=rdr_ext_tmb
The Great Cholesterol Myth (2012) by cardiologist Stephen Sinatra, M.D. and Jonny Bowden, Ph.D., C.N.S. http://www.amazon.com/Great-Cholest...44&sr=1-1&keywords=the+great+cholesterol+myth
What Your Doctor May Not Tell You About Heart Disease (2012) by cardiologist Mark Houston, M.D., M.S. http://www.amazon.com/What-Doctor-a...8&qid=1439166616&sr=1-1&keywords=mark+Houston
Vitamin K2 and the Calcium Paradox (2012) by naturopathic doctor Kate Rheaume-Bleue, B.Sc., N.D. http://www.amazon.com/Vitamin-K2-Ca...TF8&qid=1439168664&sr=1-3&keywords=vitamin+k2
Dr. Bernstein's Diabetes Solution, 4th edition (2011) by Richard K. Bernstein, M.D. http://www.amazon.com/Dr-Bernsteins...=1439170717&sr=1-1&keywords=richard+Bernstein
Blood Sugar 101 (2008/2012) by Jenny Ruhl - (read this book first) http://www.amazon.com/Blood-Sugar-1...TF8&qid=1439170821&sr=1-1&keywords=jenny+ruhl
Diet 101 (2012) by Jenny Ruhl http://www.amazon.com/Diet-101-Trut...TF8&qid=1439170821&sr=1-4&keywords=jenny+ruhl
The Rosedale Diet (2004) by Ron Rosedale, M.D. http://www.amazon.com/Rosedale-Diet...226&sr=1-1-catcorr&keywords=the+rosedale+diet
The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living (2011) by Stephen Phinney, M.D. and Jeff Volek, Ph.D. http://www.amazon.com/Art-Science-L...TF8&qid=1439176055&sr=8-3&keywords=jeff+volek
The Blood Sugar Solution (2012) by Mark Hyman, M.D. http://www.amazon.com/Blood-Sugar-S...=1-1&keywords=blood+sugar+solution+mark+hyman
Fat Chance (2013) by pediatric endocrinologist Robertobert Lustig, M.D. http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=fat+chance
The IBD Remission Diet, 2nd edition (2011) by Jini Patel Thompson http://www.amazon.com/Remission-Die...ds=the+IBD+remission+diet+jini+patel+Thompson
Breaking the Vicious Cycle (1974) by Elaine Gottschall, B.A., M.Sc. http://www.amazon.com/Breaking-Vici...31&sr=8-1&keywords=breaking+the+vicious+cycle

I'll probably add more to the list over the next couple of days.

Dr. Jeffrey Bland's book, The Disease Delusion (2014), is giving me hope. Dr. Bland co-founded the Institute for Functional Medicine in 1991 and is known as is the "father of functional medicine". It's a medical approach that focuses on the personalized prevention and treatment of chronic diseases, of which I have plenty.

The book overviews "the seven core physiological processes", provides questionaires to help you to assess which processes are not working as well as they can, then provides information on what you can do using diet, nutritional supplements, exercise, etc. to improve your health. It's a bit hit and miss without consulting with a functional medicine practitioner and having a lot of expensive testing done, but what I'm reading makes sense. I'm already doing some of it, and was planning on doing the rest of it. Will probably use Tom Malterre's book to do the elimination diet.

What I most like about this approach is the focus on identifying and addressing the root cause, not just managing the symptoms, also that it's not necessary to stop medication prior to beginning treatment. While the need for some or all medications may become unnecessary over time, the prescribing doctor, not the functional medicine practitioner, makes that decision. It's also understood that sometimes medication, other therapies, or surgery is needed.

In the case of conditions like diabetes type 2, the goal is to use diet, supplements, and exercise to manage it as long as possible, then to add medication later if needed.

The good news is that my Free T4, T3 Total, and TSH levels have all improved over the last three months, I assume due to the LCHF diet and eliminating foods that my immune system is overreacting to, resulting in inflammation. Restoring our health takes time.

 

[ButtterflyLady]

Hi @Winnie53 thanks for that detailed description and list of books, very interesting. I am curious - are you taking any medication for your thyroid? And are you taking any other meds? Also, please forgive me if I have mentioned this before (I forget who I have said this to) but do you think there is a chance you could have sleep apnea? You mentioned sleep problems, so I thought of that condition. (I have it, and getting it treated has been really good for my health).

 

[Winnie53]

CatLadyNZ, thanks for asking. Because it's a hyperthyroid problem, if medication is used, my understanding is that its on a temporary basis only. The standard of treatment is to kill the thyroid then take thyroid hormone for the rest of your life. My hope is that if I can eliminate from my diet what my immune system is overreacting to, perhaps do a detox, and restore my gut health, my body will calm down, and my pituitary gland and thyroid will return to normal. It's a long shot, but going to give it my best try.

My husband has sleep apnea, uses CPAP, and helps people on a CPAP forum. He says when I do snore, it's not every night, and I'm a light snorer. I asked him if I stop breathing, He says no. In general, I'm able to sleep for about four or five hours, then I wake up, typically because I'm too hot. I go to bed cold and wake up hot. I spend the next three to four hours layering my bedding off an on, repeatedly. If I'm lucky, I can get a few more cycles of sleep. Sometimes I lay in bed, having random thoughts. Other times I turn on a light and read for a half hour or so, then fall back to sleep. This all seemed to develop from job stress and perimenopause. For many years, I'd listen to Harry Potter on tape and fall back asleep, but I noticed my memory was getting worse. When I left employment in January, I decided to stop listening to audiobooks whenever I woke up. I'm learning how to sleep again, and my ability to remember things is getting better too.

 

[Winnie53]

Two months ago, when I was reading Dr. Rosedale's book, I became curious about a number of supplements he recommended. I started looking them up, and stumbled onto a formulation that looked interesting so bought it. I'm holding off on trying it because I have other things I want to try first, but it includes many of the nutrients that Rosedale uses with his patients. It's called Diaxinol.

 

[ButtterflyLady]

Thanks for the info, Winnie. Your night time routine sounds miserable.

Usually people snore more when they are lying on their back. The tongue muscles relax and it drops backwards and partially blocks the airway, causing snoring. In sleep apnoea usually the tongue fully blocks the airway, until the person's brain detects the lack of oxygen and wakes them up to breathe again. There is a condition called Upper Airway Resistance Syndrome, which your husband is probably familiar with from the CPAP forum, that is not as severe as sleep apnea but still causes problems. It is treated with CPAP. Some people with sleep apnea don't snore noticeably. If you feel sleepy during the day and are inclined to fall asleep while sitting reading or watching TV, then you might want to go for a sleep study. Sleep apnea can contribute to T2 diabetes.

It's probably unlikely that you have sleep apnea, but if you do have it, it would be a shame to miss diagnosing it. I asked my doctor if I might have sleep apnea and she said no... a few weeks later I fell asleep at the wheel. Fortunately it was not a serious crash and no one was injured. But the next day she apologised profusely and referred me for the sleep study through which I was diagnosed with severe sleep apnea. I could have died, along with others, if things had happened differently.

 

[photognut]

Great list of references Winnie!

After extensive research, much trial an error with Supplements over the years to replace the standard heart medication, that I had intolerances to. I don't view Heart Disease and Diabetes as two separate problems, they have a symbiotic relationship called Metabolic Syndrome, here is my list to combat my acquired Syndrome.

300mg COQ10
4000mg Vitamin C
2000mg Omacor (Fish oil)
4000iu Vit D3
300mg R-Lipoic-Acid
Vitamin K with Men 4 & 7
1000mg Garlic
125mg Vitamin E Toctrienols
800iu Vitamin E mixed Tocopherols
800mg Gymnema Sylvestre
1000mg Magnesium
Very high dose Multi vitamin containing B vits.
2000mg Devils claw
4000mg Lysine
1000mg Proline
1000mg L-Carnitine
tsp of sole water (Himalayan salt)

I don't recommend anyone going out and buying the doses I'm taking, you will seriously give yourself some prime bathroom time ;-) These are doses I worked up to and tested individually as to their benefit for my metabolism.

Some of these supplements can and will increase blood glucose levels due to using the same Glucose transportation system GLUT 1, 3 & 4. Vitamin B3./Niacin in high doses to increase HDL severely messed with my glucose levels, shooting them skywards. High doses of Vitamin C and fish oil can also do the same - monitor and adjust dose accordingly.

Gymnema Sylvestre is another that is reported to combat neuropathy.

If you are considering supplements - word of caution. Buy quality supplements that have no unnecessary harmful fillers and the content matches the label, I have yet to see one supplement that I would buy off a supermarket or high street shelf. Consumer Lab is an independent company that tests products reporting on accuracy.

 

[Winnie53]

Oh yay photognut! Good to see your list. I've got a busy couple of days ahead of me, but just wanted to say hello.

I was looking up some of the nutrients on your list. Lysine is interesting. Need to do more reading on it. As you know, I also take K2 with cod liver oil for vitamin A, also vitamin D3, and magnesium for heart and vascular health, bone health too. Here's a new article that explains the differences between K2 in the form of MK-4 and MK-7...

http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/which-vitamin-k2-supplement-is-best-mk-4-or-mk-7/

Do you check your vitamin D levels periodically? I haven't checked mine in six months. It's expensive.

For those wanting to learn about how vitamin K2, A, D3, and magnesium help our heart, vascular system, and bones, Kate Rheame-Bleue wrote an excellent book on the subject. Here's my favorite interview with her...

And another with John Whitcomb...

 

[photognut]

Oh yay photognut! Good to see your list. I've got a busy couple of days ahead of me, but just wanted to say hello.

I was looking up some of the nutrients on your list. Lysine is interesting. Need to do more reading on it. As you know, I also take K2 with cod liver oil for vitamin A, also vitamin D3, and magnesium for heart and vascular health, bone health too. Here's a new article that explains the differences between K2 in the form of MK-4 and MK-7...

http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/which-vitamin-k2-supplement-is-best-mk-4-or-mk-7/

Do you check your vitamin D levels periodically? I haven't checked mine in six months. It's expensive.

For those wanting to learn about how vitamin K2, A, D3, and magnesium help our heart, vascular system, and bones, Kate Rheame-Bleue wrote an excellent book on the subject. Here's my favorite interview with her...

And another with John Whitcomb...

I will probably ask my GP for a Vitamin D spot check sometime in the future. Due to growing a skin cancer carcinoma, I don't get the necessary fix from sunlight. Lysine, Proline & vit C is part of the Pauling's theory.

Have a great day - I've got a date with the treadmill, argh!!

 

[Winnie53]

photognut, sorry to hear about the carcinoma. I hope they were able to remove it and you're now being annually monitored. Scary stuff... Thanks for the reference to the Pauling theory regarding the lysine, proline and vitamin C. I was curious as to how you came to add those things to your regimen.

CatLadyNZ, sleep apnea is a serious problem, and can be the cause of other conditions such as atrial fibrillation, a heart condition that my husband has. Our daughter-in-law's brother has sleep apnea so severely, he also wrecked his car, and would sometimes wake up on the floor. He's slowly getting better with CPAP and is working full time again. To reassure you, my sleep problems have continued to lessen over the last six months, and my brain functioning has improved too, thankfully.

I understand that this topic is about nutritional supplements that improve blood glucose levels, but diet is foundational...

I neglected to mention, on my list of health problems, my diagnosis of non-celiac gluten sensitivity in 2011. Shortly after beginning the LCHF diet, I decided to eliminate all grains from my diet, in addition to processed foods, in part to insure that I've completely eliminated gluten from my diet, but also to improve my blood glucose levels. That too has helped.

What I've learned over the last six months is that even good quality nutritional supplements may or may not be effective without first eating a healthy diet. So for best results, find a nutrient dense diet that brings down the blood glucose levels first, then add on nutritional supplements to further lower blood glucose levels and to reduce, stabilize, or reverse diabetic complications.

 

[photognut]

photognut, sorry to hear about the carcinoma. I hope they were able to remove it and you're now being annually monitored. Scary stuff... Thanks for the reference to the Pauling theory regarding the lysine, proline and vitamin C. I was curious as to how you came to add those things to your regimen.

Sorry for late reply. How I came across adding all this to my regime? It basically boiled down to desperation after my MI (aged 46). I was given Ramipril for high BP, when I didn't have high BP in the first place, the Ambulance kept being called out when I hit the deck. I binned that drug, my Cardiologist gave me another angiogram to make sure the LAD stent wasn't narrowing, then agreed I did the right thing in stopping the drug. The Beta Blockers also lower Blood Pressure and mess with cholesterol. I was suffering from Angina, prescribed nitrates which also lower blood pressure. The Statin, well, that made me crawl out of bed, legs aching... I binned that too. Aspirin made my hair fall out, bad bruising, I knew I had to do something, and fast. I slowly replaced prescription blood thinners with natural alternatives. I decided that I would only use information from "expert" sources. Linus Pauling had a theory, I thought it was criminal that the medical profession ridiculed such a pioneer because he veered away from conventional medicine to explore Orthomolecular Medicine. I adopted his Vitamin C, Lysine and Proline theory.


For a couple of years I also took Purified Chondroitin Sulphate based on Dr Lester Morrison’s theory http://knowledgeofhealth.com/the-ma...l-molecule-20-years-before-cholesterol-drugs/ I will occasionally add this to the regime.


I then discovered Reverse Heart Disease written by two American Cardiologists Sinatra & Roberts. I read the whole book before turning to the supplement dosage page, Magnesium stopped my angina. I researched Vitamin B3, Niacin for my cholesterol, I worked up to high doses, my cholesterol level improved and I was also diagnosed as Type 2 diabetic. I’m not a diabetic!! I stopped the Niacin (prescription Niaspan) and my glucose levels returned to normal, I was also given a Glucose tolerance test, which came back normal. So, something was giving warning signs that my metabolism has a dysfunctional / deranged aspect, not yet showing it's full colours.

My doctor is getting the jitters with my ever increasing supplement regime and sends me off to the Cardiologist – his sidekick informs me I am lucky to be alive, I have a drug-eluting stent in my LAD along with a lesion at the “Widow Maker” I need to go back on the standard meds!! I am sat there dumbfounded that they would merrily shove a patient back on drugs when it is proven that these drugs make the person ill – this is really bad science. The bullying / scaremongering reinforces my faith in the path I have taken,it is the right one for me. 5 years down the line….. I’m still here!!! I think the luck card must have ran out a while ago, what will they say next?


Three years ago I started putting on weight for no apparent reason going from 8.5st to 12.5st along with a confirmed diagnosis of Diabetes, whatever had been brewing years ago had matured. I was prescribed Metformin, couldn’t tolerate it. Then I was prescribed prolonged release that had no effect on my ever increasing glucose and night time production levels. I was never a big eater so its suppressant qualities were wasted on me. This latest diagnosis hit me quite hard “what do I have to do, to keep the Reaper away that little bit longer?” So, another exercise in how to control the uncontrollable = get rid of the Grain & high carb food and I might just get rid of my Diabetes. I’m currently down to 10st and I will be back to normal soon.


That is how my supplement regime developed.

 

[Winnie53]

photognut, I think all type 2 diabetics would benefit from reading books by cardiologists Stephen Sinatra and Mark Houston. The books are very different, but they use similar approaches. Additional testing is the best way to individualize treatment. The current standard of treatment to put everyone on statins, or at least it seems like that, just doesn't make sense to me. It's great that you're getting you health back on track with the changes you made to your diet. At 10 stone, you don't have far to go to get to your previous 8.5 stone.

 

[photognut]

photognut, I think all type 2 diabetics would benefit from reading books by cardiologists Stephen Sinatra and Mark Houston. The books are very different, but they use similar approaches. Additional testing is the best way to individualize treatment. The current standard of treatment to put everyone on statins, or at least it seems like that, just doesn't make sense to me. It's great that you're getting you health back on track with the changes you made to your diet. At 10 stone, you don't have far to go to get to your previous 8.5 stone.

Thanks Winnie, I'll get around to reading Mark Houston's work, currently have a line up waiting to be read - just started Gut by Giulia Enders and my friend who suffers from Fibromyalgia has given me to read - What your Doctor may not tell you about Fibromyalgia by R.Paul St Amand - interestingly he makes a connection that it can go hand in hand with Diabetes, again we are looking at food as the culprit