What's up with the "low-carb is bad" hype?

AndBreathe · Jul 21, 2015

Sid Bonkers said:

I would like to make a couple of comments on your post Sid.

You state: ".... it has been reported many times on this and other forums that a lchf diet will increase insulin resistance and there are many posts here telling of lc'ers saying that the smallest amount of carbs sends their bg levels into orbit or words to that effect, ...."

I completely agree with that statement; they do, and I am not contesting their findings either. My comment would be simply that in this circumstance, that singly, sudden onslaught into their bodies of increased carb can catch their bodies on the hop. Our bodies like to work on routine. Our digestion systems are just subsets of that. Our digestion gets used to consuming any given diet, and will cope with it in the best way it can, in terms of producing digestive juices and enzymes. However, we can catch our bodies on the hop. Eating LC, the individual's body will tune itself to deal with that pretty effectively, on a day to day basis. Increase the carbs, and the body can be caught on the hop. Digestion doesn't happen efficiently, which sometimes can involve higher blood scores that usual, and than can be acceptable to the individual.

However, if the individual repeats the eating pattern, over a short while, it is likely the blood scores will improve a bit. How much they improve is clearly and individual thing; just as the level to which additional carbs raise the scores is individual. This is often referred to as Last Meal Effect (LME), and can be Googled to your hearts content. I have coined the phrase Enzyme Lag for my own use, as that, to me, sums it up clearly. LME also affects non-diabetics, and the principal is also valid ofr fats or any introduced element that unsettles the system. Think how some people feel after a feast at Christmas, say. Increased consumption leads to lethargy, perhaps indigestion and who knows what's happening to the bloods. Revert to usual eating patterns and it all normalises itself. Continue to eat, or overindulge, and notwithstanding gorging or physical issues (e.g. haitus hernia or the like), the body will get used to that and the symptoms of being over full and lethargic will likely pass. Let's face it; that's quite probably pretty much how many of us gained weight to get us into a less healthy place.

The second point I'd like to comment up is: " .... why would our bodies look for carbs to turn to glucose before fat? .... "

My response is quite simple. It's because it's easier for the body to digest and metabolise carbs for energy. It's the quick fix for energy. It's the digestive equivalent of wanting to eat a meal of x, y or z and having two options how we prepare it; by going to the fridge and gathering the ingredients and cooking, or going to the supermarket, followed by the butcher, the coming home and cooking it. If all the ingredients were in the fridge, why would the individual choose to go to the supermarket and butcher? They'd just get the stuff they had pre-bought and get cooking. In all likelihood, saving hours of prep. Just like carbs get into the system much faster than fats.

Sid, If you are happy and healthy living your life as you do, then I'm extremely happy for you, but in my view, extreme views of "only this works", or "only that works" aren't helpful, but I can say what works for me, with some confidence, backed up by my lab test results and removal from the diabetic register.

I'm not crowing. I'm not telling anyone to do what I did. But, I can happily tell tell people what I have done, without any recourse to my conscience.

People will post enthusiastically where they have had success. They will also post enthusiastically where something has been a resounding fail, but all voices deserve to be heard. What I find a bit tricky is when an individual's communication systems are permanently set to Transmit, without ever using Receive.

Arab Horse · Jul 21, 2015

AndBreathe said:
I would like to make a couple of comments on your post Sid.

You state: ".... it has been reported many times on this and other forums that a lchf diet will increase insulin resistance and there are many posts here telling of lc'ers saying that the smallest amount of carbs sends their bg levels into orbit or words to that effect, ...."

I completely agree with that statement; they do, and I am not contesting their findings either. My comment would be simply that in this circumstance, that singly, sudden onslaught into their bodies of increased carb can catch their bodies on the hop. Our bodies like to work on routine. Our digestion systems are just subsets of that. Our digestion gets used to consuming any given diet, and will cope with it in the best way it can, in terms of producing digestive juices and enzymes. However, we can catch our bodies on the hop. Eating LC, the individual's body will tune itself to deal with that pretty effectively, on a day to day basis. Increase the carbs, and the body can be caught on the hop. Digestion doesn't happen efficiently, which sometimes can involve higher blood scores that usual, and than can be acceptable to the individual.

However, if the individual repeats the eating pattern, over a short while, it is likely the blood scores will improve a bit. How much they improve is clearly and individual thing; just as the level to which additional carbs raise the scores is individual. This is often referred to as Last Meal Effect (LME), and can be Googled to your hearts content. I have coined the phrase Enzyme Lag for my own use, as that, to me, sums it up clearly. LME also affects non-diabetics, and the principal is also valid ofr fats or any introduced element that unsettles the system. Think how some people feel after a feast at Christmas, say. Increased consumption leads to lethargy, perhaps indigestion and who knows what's happening to the bloods. Revert to usual eating patterns and it all normalises itself. Continue to eat, or overindulge, and notwithstanding gorging or physical issues (e.g. haitus hernia or the like), the body will get used to that and the symptoms of being over full and lethargic will likely pass. Let's face it; that's quite probably pretty much how many of us gained weight to get us into a less healthy place.

The second point I'd like to comment up is: " .... why would our bodies look for carbs to turn to glucose before fat? .... "

My response is quite simple. It's because it's easier for the body to digest and metabolise carbs for energy. It's the quick fix for energy. It's the digestive equivalent of wanting to eat a meal of x, y or z and having two options how we prepare it; by going to the fridge and gathering the ingredients and cooking, or going to the supermarket, followed by the butcher, the coming home and cooking it. If all the ingredients were in the fridge, why would the individual choose to go to the supermarket and butcher? They'd just get the stuff they had pre-bought and get cooking. In all likelihood, saving hours of prep. Just like carbs get into the system much faster than fats.

Sid, If you are happy and healthy living your life as you do, then I'm extremely happy for you, but in my view, extreme views of "only this works", or "only that works" aren't helpful, but I can say what works for me, with some confidence, backed up by my lab test results and removal from the diabetic register.

I'm not crowing. I'm not telling anyone to do what I did. But, I can happily tell tell people what I have done, without any recourse to my conscience.

People will post enthusiastically where they have had success. They will also post enthusiastically where something has been a resounding fail, but all voices deserve to be heard. What I find a bit tricky is when an individual's communication systems are permanently set to Transmit, without ever using Receive.

I am learning all the time and am pretty carb intolerant at the moment but would love to hear your "story" and how you manage your diabetes although I realise it may not work for me as I am a very untypical T2 as I was a healthy weight and having cut the carbs am now underweight (just bordering on what BMI says is "dangerously underweight" although I wouldn't agree with that but am underweight).

Pinkorchid · Jul 21, 2015

I don't expect many any others than the LCHF ones will give their opinion on it which is sad really as we need to hear both sides of the story without having the thread derailed

Arab Horse · Jul 21, 2015

Pinkorchid said:
I don't expect many any others than the LCHF ones will give their opinion on it which is sad really as we need to hear both sides of the story without having the thread derailed

Agree that there is always "more than one way to skin a cat" as the saying goes and it is good to hear what works for different people;

Pinkorchid · Jul 21, 2015

Going low carb will make you loose weight as Arab Horse said even if you don't need to so you can actually become underweight which is not good. Many will say to counteract this you need to eat more fats to keep the weight up if this has happened but many people do not like to much fat not because they think fat in the diet is wrong but because they literally do not like fat...me included.. and you can't make yourself like it so how can LCHF solve that

dannyw · Jul 21, 2015

Pinkorchid said:
Going low carb will make you loose weight as Arab Horse said even if you don't need to so you can actually become underweight which is not good. Many will say to counteract this you need to eat more fats to keep the weight up if this has happened but many people do not like to much fat not because they think fat in the diet is wrong but because they literally do not like fat...me included.. and you can't make yourself like it so how can LCHF solve that

What ? You don't like ANY fat ? Avacados, bacon, cheese, nuts ? Seriously ? There is an abundance of foods with a high fat content. I actually think you are in the minority. Most people do like fat. They may not like ALL fat, but they like fat.

Squire Fulwood · Jul 21, 2015

Pinkorchid said:
I don't expect many any others than the LCHF ones will give their opinion on it which is sad really as we need to hear both sides of the story without having the thread derailed

I agree entirely but I don't know what the other side of the story is .....and ............it's probably best you don't respond since it would look like one of those rows I keep hearing about.

dannyw · Jul 21, 2015

@Pinkorchid, you quite often try to give the point of view of those who don't follow LCHF. Don't you think

tim2000s · Jul 21, 2015

Low carb isn't necessarily bad. It serves a purpose in the diet armoury. I find it useful as the best mechanism for dropping body fat, but only when it is done in a calorie controlled way. As a side effect I find that it does wonders for my blood glucose control because it stops the more major swings.

I'm not promoting LCHF because I eat more protein than most (and if I'm honest I like carbs). There are a number of studies out there that suggest that continued use of LCHF type diets can cause issues and there has not been a huge amount of research into this, but that which has been done does suggest that it is not the silver bullet. @phoenix can probably link to some of these.

As I've said many times on here, what seems to be the most effective type of diet for most is one where you eat whole, unprocessed, unrefined foods. Cooking from first principles, eating veg, legumes and pulses alongside meat and healthy fats. My experience of this is that it works well as diets go, and while not as straightforward in terms of keeping the bg levels flat, it is still okay.

To sum up then, whole, balanced and lower carb is what I'd consider a good diet. Not specifically "LCHF".

Arab Horse · Jul 21, 2015

So many variables and we are all different. I do eat fats; nuts being one of my favourites, but as they are very filling I can't eat as much of them as I could the carbs. I am eating a lot better, much more raw food, lots of veg and very little fruit; really miss the fruit.

Dillinger · Jul 21, 2015

tim2000s said:
There are a number of studies out there that suggest that continued use of LCHF type diets can cause issues and there has not been a huge amount of research into this

As a Type 1 following a low-carb diet (as low as I can). I'm very interested in this from the point of view of any problems that it might cause me. I am not aware of any studies that do show that; one hears that claimed quite often but where are these studies? I'm not a zealot; if there was evidence to show it was bad for me (or worse for me than elevated blood sugars) I'd stop immediately.

I think the problem is highlighted in what you have said there; "there are a number of studies..... and there has not been a huge amount of research into this" there either has or there hasn't; it can't be both.

Not having a study on long term health benefits of low-carbing can't be used as a negative against low-carbing; it just means that there aren't studies. The reason I would suggest that there aren't studies is that you cant' monetise a diet in the way that you can monetise a drug so who is going to pay for one to be done?

Best

Dillinger

tim2000s · Jul 21, 2015

Dillinger said:
I think the problem is highlighted in what you have said there; "there are a number of studies..... and there has not been a huge amount of research into this" there either has or there hasn't; it can't be both.

When I say "Not much research", I mean into use of ketogenic diets in the normal population. There is quite a lot in relation to epilepsy. This list is worth a read to help you make your own mind up. It is split into studies showing Advantageous, no, and adverse effects:

http://www.thepaleomom.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Ketogenic-Diet-Literature-Review.pdf

Sadly, it also includes the well battered Inuit story.

PaulinaB · Jul 21, 2015

Dillinger said:
As a Type 1 following a low-carb diet (as low as I can). I'm very interested in this from the point of view of any problems that it might cause me. I am not aware of any studies that do show that; one hears that claimed quite often but where are these studies? I'm not a zealot; if there was evidence to show it was bad for me (or worse for me than elevated blood sugars) I'd stop immediately.

I think the problem is highlighted in what you have said there; "there are a number of studies..... and there has not been a huge amount of research into this" there either has or there hasn't; it can't be both.

Not having a study on long term health benefits of low-carbing can't be used as a negative against low-carbing; it just means that there aren't studies. The reason I would suggest that there aren't studies is that you cant' monetise a diet in the way that you can monetise a drug so who is going to pay for one to be done?

Best

Dillinger

Me too! Some say there are studies for it, some say there are studies against it... and there are people like Dr. Bernstien who say they've been following this diet for decades and are in perfect health!

I personally think, everyone is different and LCHF may be very good for some people and very bad for others - just like any other diet (or basically anything in life). Everyone has their own body that has their own specific issues.
I'm keen on following LCHF because it makes me feel great, keeps my BG in check and takes a lot of worry out of my day. And I want to see if/how my blood tests will change - and if they'll change for worse, I'll not keep on eating this way. But if they'll improve - that's awesome.

On the topic of differences - I, for example, found that my insulin resistance DROPPED significantly! My levemir lowered by 50% (before I actually lost any significant amount of weight) and my reaction to Novorapid has improved a lot (I need much less Novorapid to lower by BG by 1mmol/l than before).

I went through my food log, and it seems I usually stay between 10-30g of carbs per day. Went as low as 11g, 9g of which were coming from broccoli I ate that day

I don't seem to have a horribly adverse reaction when I do eat carbs (had a holiday last week and went on carb-binge to test this), basically only a first meal loaded with carbs and low in fat will shot me up about 30% higher/quicker than normal, but it seem to be a "shock reaction" for the body which goes away quickly.

tim2000s · Jul 21, 2015

PaulinaB said:
Dr. Bernstien who say they've been following this diet for decades and are in perfect health

If you look at Dr B's diet, it isnt' strictly the LCHF version - he recommends a higher protein content than is typically found in LCHF, which means that it's not a Ketogenic diet.

PaulinaB · Jul 21, 2015

tim2000s said:
If you look at Dr B's diet, it isnt' strictly the LCHF version - he recommends a higher protein content than is typically found in LCHF, which means that it's not a Ketogenic diet.

Aha! His diet seemed very strict for me, specific amounts of carbs/protein/fats for each meal...

PS, I like your blog!

AndBreathe · Jul 21, 2015

For the avoidance of doubt; I don't and never have referred to myself as following the LCHF diet.

My meter screamed at me that to remain medication free (my very much preferred state), I had to forgo the major carbs and develop a sense of my personal tolerances and suitable foods.

I did lose weight initially. That was a pleasant by-product of getting my bloods into line which was my only objective. I didn't weight myself for the first 3 months after diagnosis, such was my disinterest.

I lost weight and really trimmed up, then started to really understand the science of insulin resistance. I needed to halt weight loss, and to be honest, that took longer than I anticipated and threw me a few curved balls along the way, meaning my final weight is lower than I would ever have planned; ending up with a BMI of 18.4 (healthy range starts at 18.5, so cutting it fine, if I were to be a pedant). I found the simplest way for me to balance intake/energy (meaning energetic functioning - running around)/enjoyment/and social/fitting in with society, meant I increased my proteins a bit and my fats.

If pushed to give me eating plan a name, I'd go for Reduced Carb, Enough Protein, Enough Fat, making RCEPEF, which isn't too catchy, so I won't bother.

zand · Jul 21, 2015

Well there are those who love LCHF and swear by it.

There are those who won't even try it because they have read that carbs are important/they have found something else that works for them/they don't want to/they love carbs/they hate fat etc etc.

I would really like to hear from someone who has tried LCHF properly and got adverse effects so much so that they had to give it up because their health was at risk (not just because someone said their health may be at risk)

Jaylee · Jul 21, 2015

Sid Bonkers said:
There have been studies that say that certain fats can cause insulin resistance but these are all rubbished by the lchf fraternity as far as I can see where as everything claimed on lc blogs and those who's living is made from selling diet books is immediately believed and becomes part of the lc folf lore, things like we only started eating grains 10,000 years ago which is not the case and was proven recently when an autopsy was performed on an early man that was discovered and found to have grains in his stomach clearly proving that man was eating grains for a much longer period. I dont have the dates but Im sure google will find it if you chose to disbelieve me.

I believe!
Man turned to agriculture in short because its easier to grow a food source like grains in one place as opposed to chasing protein & fat then beating it with a rock??
Ironically it was protein that fuelled this thought through furthering the human brain development.
You don't even need to build a fence to contain the grain. Unlike cattle...
Humanity is a victim of it's own success. Our minds have indeed evolved regarding problem solving innovation. But the body hasn't actually caught up..

As an aside. Even our modern pets are fed too much carb as "filler" in processed dog food for instance. All very clever & convenient!

donnellysdogs · Jul 21, 2015

By adding in more nuts and avocado, olives etc it is possible to stop weight loss.

I've now balanced myself at a healthy 56 /57 kg... Its taken time to do as I have also had other issues with preservatives and sweeteners to do.. You do not have to think of fat as fat....and you canstabilise nicely....

pshuttle · Jul 21, 2015

For me, LCHF has done miracles for control of my BG levels. I used to find it almost impossible to control on the NHS's recommendations. However, I totally get that it is not suitable for everyone. I even accept that it may have as yet unexpected health consequences in the long term (although still better than me definitely losing my eyesight and other complications worsening in the short term). However, if you look at populations around the world, and the varied diets eaten by people from different cultures and in many different circumstances, I have come to conclusion that the human body will make use of pretty much anything it can eat! Basically we can exist on nearly anything, if it is all we have to eat - at least in the short term.

What's up with the "low-carb is bad" hype?

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