Which came first...?

[louweez23]

I am still struggling to come to terms with being diagnosed as pre-diabetic, and still can't actually believe I am, given that I don't eat cakes, biscuits, sweets and nor do I take sugar in tea and coffee nor drink full sugar fizzy drinks. Then within 3 weeks of diagnosis I'm diagnosed with a fatty liver, which I find less surprising as I've had a sensation of discomfort on my right hand side, just below my ribs, for at least a year (maybe longer).

I wouldn't consider myself a heavy drinker but I am a regular drinker...or rather I was. I've literally stopped completely since Friday when I got the results of the scan. The Doctor said that the treatment would have been to go on a weight reducing low carb diet to cure the liver problem anyway and that's the way it's been left.

I'm now wondering if it's possible that the pre-diabetes is as a result of the damage to my liver or whether the damage to my liver is as a result of pre-diabetes. I wouldn't have thought that pre-diabetes could do that much damage but I do know that a diseased liver can lead to type-2 diabetes, which begs the question which came first? Of more concern is how damaged is my liver given that my understanding is that unless it's past stage 1 it shouldn't cause other symptoms.

Thoughts?

 

[bulkbiker]

If you have a fatty liver it may not necessarily be down to alcohol. Did you eat a lot of fruit? Fructose also contributes towards a fatty liver as do carbohydrates.
Cutting down on dietary carbs will help with your blood sugars and your fatty liver so it might be a good idea to remove starchy things like bread, rice, pasta, flour generally and sweet fruits especially the tropical variety. As all carbs turn into glucose when they are eaten you can see that eating them has a deleterious impact on your blood sugar levels.
You;ve caught your early with pre diabetes so sone dietary changes may be all it takes to get back to the straight and narrow.

 

[Guzzler]

The short answer, imo, is that Insulin Resistance came first

The good news is that modifying your diet by cutting down on carbs (especially those in fruit) will help to empty the liver of its fat reserves and for some people this emptying can start within days of changing the diet.
The liver is truly a remarkable organ, the only organ that can, within limits, regenerate.
I had fatty liver on diagnosis and I had the same lower right rib pain. Changed to LCHF and within weeks the pain had disappeared and the liver function tests at my second review were back in normal parameters.

 

[Guzzler]

P.S.

The odd glass of red wine (but not the sweet kind) is actually said to be beneficial to those of us with a metabolic dysfunction, as always, everything in moderation.

 

[Crocodile]

@makeup2udirect
Diabetes isn't necessarily caused by eating lollies and cakes then putting sugar in your tea. These actions affect people that already have this condition. Quite a difference. Not just sweets either. Rice and spuds have similar effects. Take a browse around this site and you will find some revelations.

 

[Indy51]

Also a good idea to check the kinds of fats you're consuming. The worst for fatty liver are the omega 6-heavy seed oils (the kinds that abound in most packaged foods).

http://hopefulgeranium.blogspot.com.au/2013/01/fatty-liver-and-its-treatment.html

 

[pollensa]

I am still struggling to come to terms with being diagnosed as pre-diabetic, and still can't actually believe I am, given that I don't eat cakes, biscuits, sweets and nor do I take sugar in tea and coffee nor drink full sugar fizzy drinks. Then within 3 weeks of diagnosis I'm diagnosed with a fatty liver, which I find less surprising as I've had a sensation of discomfort on my right hand side, just below my ribs, for at least a year (maybe longer).

I wouldn't consider myself a heavy drinker but I am a regular drinker...or rather I was. I've literally stopped completely since Friday when I got the results of the scan. The Doctor said that the treatment would have been to go on a weight reducing low carb diet to cure the liver problem anyway and that's the way it's been left.

I'm now wondering if it's possible that the pre-diabetes is as a result of the damage to my liver or whether the damage to my liver is as a result of pre-diabetes. I wouldn't have thought that pre-diabetes could do that much damage but I do know that a diseased liver can lead to type-2 diabetes, which begs the question which came first? Of more concern is how damaged is my liver given that my understanding is that unless it's past stage 1 it shouldn't cause other symptoms.

Thoughts?

Hello there, cannot comment on the liver situation question, but can say like yourself being Pre Diabetic was shocked also when I had high, yet still normal high sugars when tested. Being from Australia where eating of the day included organic foods where possible, my downfall unbeknown to myself was fruits tropical, eating in abundance for many years, daily, in blender smoothies, thinking healthy, but in reality as a member has raised to attention is fructose, and not healthy! Day of my test, as most days but or three day previous had been blending paw paw, mango, pineapple, orange, apples, kiwi, banana and other merrily blitzing in blender for breakie and lunch, well cocktail of sugars, so I can relate not been a cake biscuit sweet eater nor sugar in tea or coffee like yourself, or choc eater, shocked that I had become pre diabetic range, so my question was due to amount of tropical fruits that contributed, and/or taking at that time a drug called impananida for slight blood pressure at the time, obviously I did not take notice of side efficts which said "CAN CAUSE OR WORSEN" sugars!!? or both. I was not asked at the time by my spanish Doc if I had high sugars or tested for same, time of given the medications, so who knows, anyway, just to back up your situation, I guess pre diabetes can creep in suddenly even if one thinks and have been eating what what we feel healthy.

Whether pre Diabetes damages liver, I dont know, if concerned I am sure your doctor if asked may explain and hopefully give some indepth indications on your doubts this area.

Hope the within is of interest great to hear you were already what seems on the right tracks eating healthy, keep it up.

 

[louweez23]

If you have a fatty liver it may not necessarily be down to alcohol. Did you eat a lot of fruit? Fructose also contributes towards a fatty liver as do carbohydrates.
Cutting down on dietary carbs will help with your blood sugars and your fatty liver so it might be a good idea to remove starchy things like bread, rice, pasta, flour generally and sweet fruits especially the tropical variety. As all carbs turn into glucose when they are eaten you can see that eating them has a deleterious impact on your blood sugar levels.
You;ve caught your early with pre diabetes so sone dietary changes may be all it takes to get back to the straight and narrow.

 

[louweez23]

Trust me on this one Fructose is not the problem. Fruit isn't top of my list of foods I eat regularly. I think the problem might have been white bread, pasta, rice and mashed potato, which my entire diet was based around. Pretty much, I have swapped my white bread (6 slices per day) to low carb seeded bread (1-2 slices/day), cut out pasta & white rice and processed breakfast cereal. I'm eating quinoa, brown rice, bulgar wheat instead (but not as much as I find it vile) and one or 2 portions of boiled potatoes per week instead.

I'm lucky. I hold a qualification in nutrition so I know what needs to be done but I am scared to death that the damage to my liver is irreversible.

 

[bulkbiker]

Trust me on this one Fructose is not the problem. Fruit isn't top of my list of foods I eat regularly. I think the problem might have been white bread, pasta, rice and mashed potato, which my entire diet was based around. Pretty much, I have swapped my white bread (6 slices per day) to low carb seeded bread (1-2 slices/day), cut out pasta & white rice and processed breakfast cereal. I'm eating quinoa, brown rice, bulgar wheat instead (but not as much as I find it vile) and one or 2 portions of boiled potatoes per week instead.

I'm lucky. I hold a qualification in nutrition so I know what needs to be done but I am scared to death that the damage to my liver is irreversible.

I'm not sure that you will find much difference between brown and white rice in terms of blood sugar management, or indeed nutrition but we'll leave that aside for the moment. Are you following some kind of whole food plant based diet?

 

[louweez23]

Yes. Blending fruit into a smoothie or juicing will do it every time. Your processor was doing the work your body should have been doing. I don't eat a lot of fruit, simply because I'm lazy and can't be bothered washing, peeling or getting rid of the waste afterwards. Plus it's expensive. I do however, eat lots of veg, so I can truthfully say my ingestion of sugar was low. As a previous poster has pointed out all carbs break down into glucose, the only difference between a simple sugar (di-saccharide) and a starchy/complex carb (poly-saccharide) is the rate at which it is broken down by the body into glucose molecules. Saccharide molecules are arranged in chains and can only be broken down from the end of the chain so a simple sugar is broken down straight away (it doesn't take too long to separate 2 molecules) whereas long chain carbs take a bit longer. The higher the degree of processing of those carbs however, will start breaking down those carbs into sugar a lot quicker. Even mashing a potato will make the glucose be absorbed into the blood a lot quicker than keeping it whole and allowing your body to chew it and digest larger lumps in your stomach. So blending would have the same effect as cutting the long chains up into tiny little pieces and in effect rendering it into the same as eating a glassful of dissolved sucrose.

My fear is that my liver has been damaged to such an extent that it is causing the sugar problems. My doctor has not done a biopsy. He's simply relying on the scan. Imaging does not diagnose which stage of fatty liver disease I'm at, but the fact that I can feel my liver and ankles swell up (especially after drinking alcohol) and I suffer nose bleeds suggests I'm at more than stage 1. Whilst a glass of red wine may be helpful for diabetics it can be deadly to someone with late stage liver disease so as I don't know what stage I'm at I'm crying off it completely.

I have an appointment on 4th July with a Gastroenterologist so I'll let you know how I go on.

 

[louweez23]

I'm not sure that you will find much difference between brown and white rice in terms of blood sugar management, or indeed nutrition but we'll leave that aside for the moment. Are you following some kind of whole food plant based diet?

Kind of. Lots of green leafy veg. Any carbs are whole grain (like wholegrain oats). High protein and quite high in fat so I do know I need to make changes to the fat as there is still too much saturated fat. The brown rice I honestly don't eat a lot of . My portions of all carbs have gone from hearty portions to miniscule.

I'm now struggling to get enough calories. I can't go overboard on the protein because I have a large kidney stone. I can't go overboard on the fat because I have a fatty liver and I can't go overboard on the carbs for obvious reasons. I'm sticking to approx 1600 calories per day and my weight is creeping down painfully slowly. I lost 3lb in 5 weeks.

The only other thing I can do is up the exercise. I used to be a regular gym bunny but I've let that slide. I've got a feeling this is going to be a long road back to recovery. There isn't going to be a quick fix. I'm seeing a gastro-enterologist on 4th July so I'll prepare my questions in advance.

Thank you for your help.

 

[bulkbiker]

I can't go overboard on the fat because I have a fatty liver

Sorry its the carbs that contribute to the fatty liver not dietary fat.
Fat provides calories and satiety you need to up dietary fat and protein and cut down on the carbs in my view.
Are you following the WFPB for health or moral reasons? If health then as you can see it isn't so great so maybe bacon and eggs? Just a thought..

 

[louweez23]

Sorry its the carbs that contribute to the fatty liver not dietary fat.
Fat provides calories and satiety you need to up dietary fat and protein and cut down on the carbs in my view.
Are you following the WFPB for health or moral reasons? If health then as you can see it isn't so great so maybe bacon and eggs? Just a thought..

Proper confusing. There's so much conflicting advice out there. Some sites say to limit dietary fat to 30% of total calorie intake and cut down on saturated fat to between 7-10% for NAFLD. Bacon & eggs is my preferred go to for lunch and sometimes breakfast and even though I cook with olive oil both bacon & eggs are full of saturates. Can't help thinking if I can sort the liver out that the diabetes will sort itself out and that I should focus on the liver first.

 

[bulkbiker]

Proper confusing. There's so much conflicting advice out there. Some sites say to limit dietary fat to 30% of total calorie intake and cut down on saturated fat to between 7-10% for NAFLD. Bacon & eggs is my preferred go to for lunch and sometimes breakfast and even though I cook with olive oil both bacon & eggs are full of saturates. Can't help thinking if I can sort the liver out that the diabetes will sort itself out and that I should focus on the liver first.

In my experience... I cut down as many carbs as I could.. didn't count calories and ate lots of fat.
Lost just over 100 pounds and my Type 2 diabetes.
Sat fat no evidence for heart disease.. read the PURE study.
Definitely focus on the liver but by restricting carbs and not fat.

edit to add the figures in my signature are all true
and check out the low carb success stories thread in the forum.

 

[Guzzler]

I agree with BB, healthy dietary fats, including sat fat, does not link up to fat stored in the liver. Fructose and booze will have an effect on stored fats in the liver. I have never seen anything that suggests sat fats add to liver disease. In the early stages of liver disease it is said to be almost impossible to determine cause judging by a scan alone.

Dr. Robert Lustig (Paediatric Endocrinologist) has said that the HFCS endemic in the N.American diet and in pop in particular is turning children in effect into people suffering the same effects of alcoholism regarding the liver.

 

[Guzzler]

To clarify, Lustig says, and I am paraphrasing, you wouldn't dream of giving your five year old kid a can of beer but you you don't think twice about giving him a can of pop. The end results of excess are the same.

 

[Guzzler]

Proper confusing. There's so much conflicting advice out there. Some sites say to limit dietary fat to 30% of total calorie intake and cut down on saturated fat to between 7-10% for NAFLD. Bacon & eggs is my preferred go to for lunch and sometimes breakfast and even though I cook with olive oil both bacon & eggs are full of saturates. Can't help thinking if I can sort the liver out that the diabetes will sort itself out and that I should focus on the liver first.

I would advise that you read up on de novo lipogenesis and then on fructose metabolism. If you are familiar with the Krebs cycle this will clarify things for you.

 

[Daibell]

Hi. First forget calories as they are irrelevant. Yes, cut the carbs way down as you already realise. Fats are not the enemy we have been told; yet more junk research. They no doubt contribute at some level but not to the extent carbs do. So have a low-level of carbs and enough fats and proteins to keep you feeling full. Omega 3 fish oils are really good and I gather Omgea-6 oils from seeds not so good. It won't have been the diabetes that caused the fatty liver but your carb regime together with your family genes.