Which insulin is best..old or new?

[Rach79]

Hi Rach,
My Aunt has been T1 diabetic for 33 yrs and has always been on animal insulin twice a day and injecting 30 mins before each meal, (my 10 yr old son is also T1) My Aunt is now a healthy 72 yr old, and in a recent conversation said her DN had told her that her animal insulin was being removed from the market in the near future, but not to worry they'd give her 6months warning!! She's thinks she's too old to change regimes now, she tried synthetic insulin once before and had such a bad experience with hypos which she had no warning of, she'll be very reluctant to have to change.
Of course everyone reacts differently and what works for her may not work for you. My son is heading for another change in his insulin, this will be his 4th, and injects 3 times a day, but think we'll be heading for 4 shortly. One day we'll hit the jackpot and find a regime that works for him, till then we'll just keep trying. At present he's on insuman comb 15, humalog and lantus.
Take care
Suzi x

Suzi - tell your aunt about the patients choice (identified in IDDT link above). It's unfair that diabetics get told such rubbish about insulin and animal insulin has always proved to be beneficial. It isn't for everyone I know but with your aunt it shouldn't be allowed that she is made to change. Please let me know how you are getting on with this. There is a company in the UK who still provide animal insulin contrary to what she has been told - it is Wockhardt. It is likely Novo Nordisk have previously supplied your aunt with animal insulin and they are now withdrawing but Wockhardt isn't. Please show her link attached and let me know
Rach x

PS it makes me cross too, we should be allowed to live free normal lives and not be forced into submission by authorities.

http://www.wockhardt.co.uk/siteimages/N ... uction.pdf

 

[Trinkwasser]

Novorapid £17.27 10mls
Humalog £17.28
Apidra £17.27
Bovine £18.48
Pork £16.80

Levemir £39/5 x 3ml pens
Lantus £39- £42 depending on pens
Isophane pork £25.20/5 x 3ml pens
Bovine Isophane £27.72 5 x3ml pens

That's VERY interesting, I somehow assumed that with the bulk of production moving to Lantus and Levemir and the animal insulins becoming a niche product from a single manufacturer the cost difference would be in the other direction.

SOOOOO you could make a very effective case for changing not just on medical but also cost grounds, should you wish to.

 

[suzi]

Hi Rach,
Had my 10yr old son was at clinic yesterday, HBA1c 8.1 down from 8.3 bit of an improvement but not good enough. Dr has taken him off insumane comb15 (which we both agreed wasn't worth the carteridge it was in!) and left him on Lantus!! plus his 3 humalog injections before meals. See how we go till Feb, then going to try him on animal insulin, basically because each time he injects he has a red splodge mark for a couple of days on the injection sites. Obviously a bit of an allergy skin reaction going on which may improve everything all round.
Going to start new regime at weekend to see how it goes, cause he'll be injecting at school next week and i'd like to get his dose right!
Hope all is well with you, take care
Suzi x

 

[Rach79]

Hi Rach,
Had my 10yr old son was at clinic yesterday, HBA1c 8.1 down from 8.3 bit of an improvement but not good enough. Dr has taken him off insumane comb15 (which we both agreed wasn't worth the carteridge it was in!) and left him on Lantus!! plus his 3 humalog injections before meals. See how we go till Feb, then going to try him on animal insulin, basically because each time he injects he has a red splodge mark for a couple of days on the injection sites. Obviously a bit of an allergy skin reaction going on which may improve everything all round.
Going to start new regime at weekend to see how it goes, cause he'll be injecting at school next week and i'd like to get his dose right!
Hope all is well with you, take care
Suzi x

Well my BG was high last night and then extremely low an hour after with no explanation... so I was up half the night treating a hypo. Today I'm hyperglyceamic and in pain because my shoulder hurts a lot. I'm also frustrated because my doctor told me he would refer me to physio and he has forgotten again :!: I've been doing further research into animal insulins and synthetic and looking at other forums. It appears that synthetic insulin has a less chance of generating allergic reactions than that of animal :? I guess it depends but overall the statistics show a higher proportion of people allergic to animal insulin than that of synthetic. Mind you I've only looked at a few sites but it is worth noting. The IDDT states the dangers of human synthetic insulin but not that of animal insulin. I've even looked on the warnings on the packets of animal insulin (from Wockhardt via the web) and one is "risk of hypersensitivity" in other words could trigger allergic reactions. So we are not immune to any allergic reaction of either type of insulin as both types are capable of triggering one. It does appear your son may have a mild allergic reaction to the insulin he is on, but changing to animal, although possibly more beneficial may not always be the answer.

 

[suzi]

Hi Rach,
hope your feeling better today, Andrew has had several different insulins and all have left him with red splodges on his legs after injections but no other symptoms, all have been synthetic. Were going to try the animal insulins in Feb. 1.) if we don't get good control on the new regime 2.) see if we can illiminate the red splodges (just incase they cause other reactions) Andrew also has coeliac desease, that sometimes affects his diabetic control, especially when he accidently eats gluten.
Suzi x

 

[Rach79]

Hi Rach,
hope your feeling better today, Andrew has had several different insulins and all have left him with red splodges on his legs after injections but no other symptoms, all have been synthetic. Were going to try the animal insulins in Feb. 1.) if we don't get good control on the new regime 2.) see if we can illiminate the red splodges (just incase they cause other reactions) Andrew also has coeliac desease, that sometimes affects his diabetic control, especially when he accidently eats gluten.
Suzi x

That is unlucky. I guess with him going to school as well it's difficult having to choose gluten free, nutritious and tasy meals for him :? Well if he doesn't suit any of the synthetics then this would make sense. Keep trying a process of elimination :!: I hope he gets sorted with it as it's a lot to deal with from a young age.

 

[suzi]

Hi Rach
Well were on day 3 of our new bolus basal regime and what a nightmare :? Have stopped the insumane 15 combi completely and are now on humalog x3daily before meals working out doasage/carbs and increased Lantus at bedtime to 12u(prob increase more as the week passes) Have been up and down like a yo yo but mostly high. Trying to get the balance right is giving me a headache But hopefully the next few days will improve to the stage where we can say "yes were half way there" It's not easy and i sympathis with anyone who has been here before, feeling totally out of my deepth at times, yet i have always been the go with the flow type of person. Have even had to give top ups an Mon Andrew had 6 injections!! poor sod feels like a pin cushion, DS coming out 2moro morning to discuss regime and fine tune things, Dr who i usually have so much faith in neither told DS or dietitician of new regime, are they :x
Hopefully all will be sorted 2moro, had to have a rant,(sorry) feeling totally out of it, i'm soo high on emotion i'm scared of what will happen when i fall :cry: Have had to use my nembulizer this morning for my asthma, think i'm a bit stressed out.
Suzi x

 

[Rach79]

Hi Rach
Well were on day 3 of our new bolus basal regime and what a nightmare :? Have stopped the insumane 15 combi completely and are now on humalog x3daily before meals working out doasage/carbs and increased Lantus at bedtime to 12u(prob increase more as the week passes) Have been up and down like a yo yo but mostly high. Trying to get the balance right is giving me a headache But hopefully the next few days will improve to the stage where we can say "yes were half way there" It's not easy and i sympathis with anyone who has been here before, feeling totally out of my deepth at times, yet i have always been the go with the flow type of person. Have even had to give top ups an Mon Andrew had 6 injections!! poor sod feels like a pin cushion, DS coming out 2moro morning to discuss regime and fine tune things, Dr who i usually have so much faith in neither told DS or dietitician of new regime, are they :x
Hopefully all will be sorted 2moro, had to have a rant,(sorry) feeling totally out of it, i'm soo high on emotion i'm scared of what will happen when i fall :cry: Have had to use my nembulizer this morning for my asthma, think i'm a bit stressed out.
Suzi x

Suzi, it sounds tough as hell :!: I'm here to listen - should you want to rant, scream (although a virtual scream I'll get the message) or just talk. Sometimes it helps to just let it all out. I want a kid one day soon and I'm concerned how I'll manage both my diabetes and his/hers should they get it. I know there's a chance that they won't get it but it is 50/50 with me being a Type 1 Diabetic woman. It is a lot of stuff to think about and try and get right so I sympathise with you 100% :!: It is even more frustrating when the diabetic clinic don't co-operate as well as you would like. I would know because my clinic can be that way with me. It is annoying because I figured out they are more helpful with others but can't keep their records up to date with me or co-operate properly. When I complained about this they of course sent a response with the standard apology and trying to cover themselves with excuses. However it isn't enough when you have to rely on someone to manage your health effectively. Hang in there and hopefully the clinic can come up with a solution to your son's problems. I might do some research on this matter on the internet (as I'm constantly researching diabetes and ways of improving it / maintaining health etc). In the meantime PM me or post here whenever you want

 

[suzi]

Thanx Rach,
we'll were getting there (finally!!!) Basically doing the 4 injections a day, bs morning are around 8 which slightly high but far better than 14, lunchtime 13/tea time 19 so lots of fine tuning to do ,bed time ok at 11 (Andrew can drop like a stone as this morning was 2.3) Going to a carb counting class on Tuesday at the hospital, hopefully i'll grasp it ok, cos at the minute i'm winging it hence Andrews readings! Many thanks for your support, hows things with you?
Take care
Suzi x

 

[Rach79]

Hey Suzi,

They are ok with me thanks I've decided after discussion with my boyfriend to stay on the new stuff. It does actually allow me to be more flexible with my eating and if I'm a bit high I can take another unit or two. It is trial and error really. With Andrew, why do you think his BG's drop suddenly in the morning :?: Does he snack at night sometimes and not others or do an evening sport or P.E. at school the previous day which could affect his BG's :?: It is worth noting down the mornings he goes low and working out what he does the previous day which might affect the morning BG's. Does he keep a daily log :?: I have started to do this recently but due to lack of time and inconvenience it was hard to keep it up! So the solution is that I've just bought a new monitor (I don't think you can get these on the NHS but unsure). It allows me to log my food I have, insulin dosage and BG's so I can quickly look back and analyse what my BG's are doing. I'm soon to try it out and am quite excited (sad I know :wink: ) :!: Well let me know on the progress. Maybe tell Andrew to write a log if you can and he can discuss his results with the clinic when he next sees them.

 

[suzi]

Hiya Rach,
always have kept a log, infact Dr & DN think i'm verging on obsession with Andrew's :roll: But i can look back and say "right didn't give enough insulin to carbs, or too much or didn't allow for sport ect" So am busy fine tunning at mo, though Andrew must be going through a growth spurt and is eating everything in site, have barred him from opening fridge :twisted: told him to snack on cheese!
Had a perfect 6 last night at tea time, hope it wasn't a fluke :lol: Reason for dropping so low sometimes i think is due to the fact he twists & turns like the exodus in bed at night! honestly tho think it's just one of those unexplained things, he's good at waking himself up if Hypo, thinks he's had a nightmare and comes into me, i know to do his blood and can almost guess he's hypo and usually reads 2.4 (also scare him as he enters my room, i sit bolt up right, no matter how deep a sleep i'm in, freaky!!!)
Glad things are getting there for you, it's hard isn't it, but were all doing so well.
Take care and enjoy your new toy
Suzi x

 

[janabelle]

Can I just throw something into the mix; My husband is looking closely into effects of natural insulin on the body, following my awful experience on Lantus, and years of uncontrolled diabetetes on various "human insulins"-read my previous posts for more details!
Both him and I are convinced that natural insulin has effects on the body that synthetic insulin cannot mimic-I believe this to be at the root of my probs. It is well known that purified pork insulin is the next best thing to our own, which is how I explain the huge improvement in my health since being on it. I do still take a synthetic rapid-acting insulin which gives me the freedom to eat when I want. I feel the benefit to my health and improvement in my BS control is definatlely due to being on a natural insulin-Hypurin Porcine Isophane. Wish I'd been on it years ago.
I'd be interested to hear any feedback.
Jus

 

[Rach79]

Can I just throw something into the mix; My husband is looking closely into effects of natural insulin on the body, following my awful experience on Lantus, and years of uncontrolled diabetetes on various "human insulins"-read my previous posts for more details!
Both him and I are convinced that natural insulin has effects on the body that synthetic insulin cannot mimic-I believe this to be at the root of my probs. It is well known that synthetic pork insulin is the next best thing to our own, which is how I explain the huge improvement in my health since being on it. I do still take a synthetic rapid-acting insulin which gives me the freedom to eat when I want. I feel the benefit to my health and improvement in my BS control is definatlely due to being on a natural insulin-Hypurin Porcine Isophane. Wish I'd been on it years ago.
I'd be interested to hear any feedback.
Jus

Well it's something I might still consider then as I'm unsure really. I don't understand though, why is it called animal synthetic insulin?

Hiya Rach,
always have kept a log, infact Dr & DN think i'm verging on obsession with Andrew's :roll: But i can look back and say "right didn't give enough insulin to carbs, or too much or didn't allow for sport ect" So am busy fine tunning at mo, though Andrew must be going through a growth spurt and is eating everything in site, have barred him from opening fridge :twisted: told him to snack on cheese!
Had a perfect 6 last night at tea time, hope it wasn't a fluke :lol: Reason for dropping so low sometimes i think is due to the fact he twists & turns like the exodus in bed at night! honestly tho think it's just one of those unexplained things, he's good at waking himself up if Hypo, thinks he's had a nightmare and comes into me, i know to do his blood and can almost guess he's hypo and usually reads 2.4 (also scare him as he enters my room, i sit bolt up right, no matter how deep a sleep i'm in, freaky!!!)
Glad things are getting there for you, it's hard isn't it, but were all doing so well.
Take care and enjoy your new toy
Suzi x

Hi Suzi,

Firstly, no I don't think you are becoming obsessive at all. You wish to know what is wrong with your son and his diabetes should be controlled. I think constant logging and ruling out everything is a really good thing to do. His body waking in the night is what mine does if I have a hypo, it's difficult to realise the symptoms when half asleep. It's good you wake up too, I think it's the animal instinct in us, or motherly instinct really. Keep at it and don't give up, explore every option and understand that I don't think it's obsessive at all. You are concerned for the health of your son and you wish his diabetes to be better controlled. There's nowt wrong with that

 

[ChezMorgan]

I managed to see my Consultant today ( next appointment wasnt till may 2009), I was at the Diabetic clinic to see my podiatrist , she called him into her room when i told her how ill i was feeling.

He said that he had heard on the grapevine that i wanted to change to pork insulin.......... so i was right, my ears were burning !!!!!
Anyway he organized some ( loads ) of blood tests and said lets see the results and then if you really want to you can change to a pork long acting insulin at night, but not the short acting one as he is worried it would cause me to hypo frequently. With me feeling like poo, two podiatrist , two students and the consultant in the room i didnt feel like arguing ..... at least i am heading in the right direction, i think

 

[suzi]

hi Chez,
Very glad to here theyv'e listened(was it a very long grape vine :lol: ) and yes your heading in the right direction, everyone reacts differently to insulins, whats good for one isn't always good for another. I think a lot of people on this forum have proved that. lets hope the change for you is soon and helps you feel more like your ole self and more importantly in control.
Best wishes
Suzi x

 

[suzi]

Hi Rach,
Result today (think i'm finally getting the hang of Andrews new regime So he woke a litte low this morning 3.5, lunchtime at school 8.3, Hypo during carb counting lesson @2.30pm(just new it would have to happen with 7 nurses in the room!!) but only mild 3.9, over treated it, teatime 19.1 but a perfect score at bedtime 6.6. Have discovered like some have mentioned he needs 1.2u per 10g carbs at breakfast whilst 1.5u per 10g carbs at lunch and teatime. DN is getting me a half unit pen so we can really fine tune things. Just hope it lasts, next carb counting class is'nt til New Year, but as long as i stick to what i've learnt so far, and trawl some of the web sites i'm sure i'll be fine.
Many thanks for all your support and advise, your a star.Hope things are well with you x
Take care
Suzi x

 

[janabelle]

Sorry for ****-up-meant to say "purified" not synthetic, when I was referring to the pork insulin.
Apologies for confusion Rach79! I'll try and edit the original post.
Justine

 

[Rach79]

Sorry for ****-up-meant to say "purified" not synthetic, when I was referring to the pork insulin.
Apologies for confusion Rach79! I'll try and edit the original post.
Justine

It's ok thanks. I just got confused as synthetic is opposite to animal I thought. Well at the moment my sugars are ok but other times I just don't know. Sometimes they are really erratic and I can have a completely abnormal reading for no reason. It's usually when I inject in my stomach which makes me think my lypodistrophy hasn't quite gone away yet. I'll have to check with the clinic 20 December 2008 when I'm back. That's when I get a blood monitor attached to me like a pump but instead tests my sugars 300 times per hour :shock: The clinic said they will get a better idea why my glucose levels are so erratic at times and from there they can aim to help me stabilise them better. They would shove a monitor on me at Christmas time when I want to have some extra turkey and mince pies, but beggars can't be choosers hey :wink:

 

[Rach79]

Hi Rach,
Result today (think i'm finally getting the hang of Andrews new regime So he woke a litte low this morning 3.5, lunchtime at school 8.3, Hypo during carb counting lesson @2.30pm(just new it would have to happen with 7 nurses in the room!!) but only mild 3.9, over treated it, teatime 19.1 but a perfect score at bedtime 6.6. Have discovered like some have mentioned he needs 1.2u per 10g carbs at breakfast whilst 1.5u per 10g carbs at lunch and teatime. DN is getting me a half unit pen so we can really fine tune things. Just hope it lasts, next carb counting class is'nt til New Year, but as long as i stick to what i've learnt so far, and trawl some of the web sites i'm sure i'll be fine.
Many thanks for all your support and advise, your a star.Hope things are well with you x
Take care
Suzi x

Suzi,

Glad things are going better for you and Andrew I think carb count should help him a lot. I am considering this as it has never been offered but something I aim to do in the not too distant future. It is good to hear Andrew is well anyhow and coping better.

 

[suzi]

Hi Rach,
Well this is what i find astonishing with the carb counting( and i'm still not getting it 100%, but when i do i'm estatic!) He wasn't feeling great on Wed (bs 10.2)so gave him 2u humalog cause he wasn't hungry (usually needs at least 6) and it was enough, had scambled eggs for snack, and at lunchtime perfect result 5.6.
The hospital call Andrews regime FABB, flexible adjustment to basal bolus, and its working, so i would definately recomend carb counting. I know children are not advised to low carb, but now when Andrew doesn't fancy eating potatoes/rice ect with a meal i don't have to tell him,"but youv'e got to eat carbs with your meal". Its giving him so much more freedom with meals and times he eats
Sorry to hear there shoving a monitor on you pre Christmas, but then there is a slight advantage that if you carb count you could juggle and have those extra mince pies (have to admit i can't walk past a mince pie myself ) Take care Rach and hope things work themselves out
Suzi x