Why is running/walking first thing good for you?

That depends on how well your pancreas can handle the amount of sugar your liver will dump into your blood stream. You may find it could make you hyper. What is your current fasting level this may be a good guide whether you should do it.

I am not sure it really makes much difference whether you eat and go for a run or run and then eat on the fat around your liver and pancreas, but it may on the maximum glucose levels your body sees during your exercise.

As I said in the other thread I like to exercise before I eat. May I suggest you get a meter and try both for several days testing say every 15 mins and see the different profiles.

We are all different and react differently to different situations so what works for one may not work for the next.

Hi, i have read so much about this, none of which relates to diabetics unfortunately, as you are newly diagnosed I'm not sure it relates to you, for me I've been on a low carb diet for a year and my body dosent rely on glucose for fuel anymore, i run on fat stores, people say to run after fasting overnight and before eating to train your body to get used to doing this as in a marathon, you cannot carry enough fuel in the form of glucose and will run out around 18 to 20 miles so for distance runners teaching your body to use fat as energy is very important, this is what they call hitting the wall, so yes i would say running when fasted will indeed burn the fat for fuel, as i said I'm not sure how healthy this is, most distance runners are lunatics and seem to thrive on extremes, i can't see any harm in trying it though, but i would strongly suggest testing your bloods, before, during and after to make sure your not doing yourself more harm than good

best of luck, please let us know how things go, I'm very interested in all things exercise and especially running related

If you are type 2 and not on strong medications, exercise is good for you. Type 1s or those type 2s on stronger meds have to be careful because as they use up their blood glucose, the meds can interfere with with the body's natural balancing mechanism of homeostasis. This literally means same state and is the body's attempt to keep things within natural limits.

When you exerise, your blood glucose gets used up and your level drops. When you drop below about 4.0 your body creates more by converting various stores by a process called gluconeogenesis.

"Gluconeogenesis is a metabolic pathway that results in the generation of glucose from non-carbohydrate carbon substrates such as pyruvate, lactate, glycerol, glucogenic amino acids, and fatty acids (both even-chain and odd-chain).

It is one of the two main mechanisms humans and many other animals use to keep blood glucose levels from dropping too low (hypoglycemia)."

It is in essence, 'topping you up'. On the whole, this is a good thing because you are losing weight whenever this happens. In addition, exercise improves your insulin sensitivity over time so it works better for you and thirdly, it alters your blood chemistry in a positive way:

"The role of physical activity must be considered. Increased levels of daily activity bring about decreases in liver fat stores and a single bout of exercise substantially decreases both de novo lipogenesis and plasma VLDL." (Prof Roy Taylor, Medscape, Type 2 Diabetes Etiology and Reversibility)

When your BG drops too much your metabolism will dump glycogen from your liver. Unless your liver is completely depleted (if you are in deep ketosis or hitting the wall in the marathon) then that probably won't be coming straight from gluconeogenesis.

I don't eat any carbs (<25g a day for sure), always run fasted, and often get a "liver dump" after I've finished (because gluconeogenesis has added some glycogen to my liver even though I don't eat carbs).

The liver dump is a good thing - it clears glycogen out of your liver that would only end up getting leaked out eventually. At least when it happens post exercise you are less insulin resistant, so the "spike" is unlikely to last for long.

borofergie said:

When your BG drops too much your metabolism will dump glycogen from your liver. Unless your liver is completely depleted (if you are in deep ketosis or hitting the wall in the marathon) then that probably won't be coming straight from gluconeogenesis.

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As far as I know, that's glycogenolysis and is the other main pathway. It differs from gluconeogenesis in the way it is triggered. Both occur mainly in the liver but glycogenolysis is triggered by a hormone, epinephrine (adrenaline), which is released as a part of a fight or flight response, ie where you might need extra energy. Gluconeogenesis is triggered by generally low energy levels which can occur during sleep, periods of fasting or steady non threatening activity, eg a long walk or swim etc.

TOSH1 said:

Hi

I want to start running/walking first thing in the morning without eating. I have been told that when you do this, your body sees that there is no fuel and starts eating away your stared fat as fuel.

Why is this not a good idea.

Thank you

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Hi Toshi

I agree with Andrew that testing is the only way to determine what is best for you.

I always test before I run and now after the run. I used to test during but stopped and eat something if I feel shaky or low ( and often if I don't )

I run all the time at any time, but when I was first diagnosed I had to watch for hypos and if I ran in the evening, I often got a late night or early morning hypo that seemed to come out of no where.

As my fitness improved, that stopped and now I can run for 2-hours without feeling low.

It depends on the day but I can feel low in the 70 to 80 range sometimes and other days I feel great and not wobbly.

Often now I'll run and be in the middle 70s to 80s and 2-hours later spike to 110 or more - glycogenolsis as Yorksman wrote?

I used to take glucose tabs and take 3 every hour. That worked for awhile, but now I take a mixed bag of large raisins and pumpkin seeds.

But test and be aware that it will always be evolving and you will change too.

Biggest problem was getting an accurate reading when testing during a run being all sweaty a sometimes shaky.

I had to add both wipes and a small towel in my kit during runs

I've run a lot of marathons and tried carbo loading, etc. I've run thin and heavier, the key for how I felt was my level of fitness and how hot I was - dehydrated. If I had trained with over 45-miles a week for a good long time I was fine and didn't hit the wall as long as I was hydrated.

Toshi , how far are you running? What kind of training HIT or LSD - long slow distance?




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runner2009 said:

Often now I'll run and be in the middle 70s to 80s and 2-hours later spike to 110 or more - glycogenolsis as Yorksman wrote?

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If it's two hours later I'd guess its gluconeogenesis, which is the response due to generally low levels, as glycogenolysis is pretty much instant. If you were jogging and suddenly saw a tiger, your fight or flight response requires a immediate boost in energy levels. Two hours to crank yourself up is too long

But, lots of joggers do report a 'runners high', a state sometimes compared with persistence hunting and which may involve other chemical triggers such as dopamine or serotonin, though, as far as I understand it, this happens when the glycogen stores are used up and the process occurs to stop pain, presumably whilst your body is busy creating some more for you?

The only way to be sure is to test for adrenaline though.

Yorksman said:

If it's two hours later I'd guess its gluconeogenesis, which is the response due to generally low levels, as glycogenolysis is pretty much instant. If you were jogging and suddenly saw a tiger, your fight or flight response requires a immediate boost in energy levels. Two hours to crank yourself up is too long

But, lots of joggers do report a 'runners high', a state sometimes compared with persistence hunting and which may involve other chemical triggers such as dopamine or serotonin, though, as far as I understand it, this happens when the glycogen stores are used up and the process occurs to stop pain, presumably whilst your body is busy creating some more for you?

The only way to be sure is to test for adrenaline though.

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Interesting, as for the "runners high" that is why I like to run (-: I usually get it on a LSD run about an hour into it - always the first 20-minutes suck. But if I a trail running and I have the first half is a steep trail higher than my eye sight and my heart rate is above 140+ I start feeling the high within 20-minutes. Interesting my BG is not in hypo range.

I think this is very complex or so it seems. In the past a hypo would mean a sweaty back and neck, but now I'm usually not low when this occurs - perhaps this is gluconeogenesis? The indication now for a hypo for me is wobbly thighs and core muscles during exercise.

Hi

The replies above give you masses of fantastic information, and they are clearly from people who know lots about the subject! I don't, but I thought you might like an opinion from a very un-sporty person too.

In the mornings, I find it very easy to forget to eat, and then get physically active (walking to work, going out on the weekend, housework, etc.). I don't feel hungry, and I often have a desire not to eat. Since I have got myself a blood glucose monitor, I have discovered that this period of non-hungry activity coincides with something called the dawn phenomenon (google it for the technical description). This is when my body decides that it needs to generate energy to allow me to start my day, raids its reserves, and dumps glucose into the bloodstream. I feel great, alert, energetic, and even less likely to eat! It is like having free energy.

Clearly, using this energy up in a useful way, makes sense, and I think it is the reason that many of us with impaired glucose control skip breakfast.

However (and this is based on a lot of personal experience), there may be a problem when that 'free energy' runs out. Time after time I have gone from bright, lively and cheerful to white, shaky and irritable. It happens when my blood sugar suddenly drops, it is horrible, and is often called 'a hypo'.

(Hyperglycaemia is high blood glucose, hypoglycaemia is low blood glucose.)

Different people experience hypos differently, and I think that type 1 diabetics often experience differently from type 2s. My personal experience of hypos is that they range from minor feelings of weakness, to major bouts of rage, tearfulness, all-body aches, facial numbness, lost words, confusion and up to 3 days of flu-like aching.

Hardly the kind of thing you want to experience at the end of a fun bout of morning exercise.

I can avoid the whole horrible hypo experience by eating a protein and fat breakfast, no carbs, before the hypo starts, because the energy from the food is available when the 'free energy' runs out.

So, moral of the story:

Until you are fit and used to morning exercise

• Start gently with your morning exercise routines
• Build up gradually
• Learn how your body starts the hypo
• Eat something slow release before the hypo starts
• Enjoy your exercise

borofergie said:

When your BG drops too much your metabolism will dump glycogen from your liver. Unless your liver is completely depleted (if you are in deep ketosis or hitting the wall in the marathon) then that probably won't be coming straight from gluconeogenesis.

I don't eat any carbs (<25g a day for sure), always run fasted, and often get a "liver dump" after I've finished (because gluconeogenesis has added some glycogen to my liver even though I don't eat carbs).

The liver dump is a good thing - it clears glycogen out of your liver that would only end up getting leaked out eventually. At least when it happens post exercise you are less insulin resistant, so the "spike" is unlikely to last for long.

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What all I can say is - you are good writer, athlete and an experienced person in liver dump process. I am now reading all your posts and learning a lot. If you see, I put a question on T2D forum, asking if liver dump is good or bad. People tried to help me out, but your posts from the past explained this aspect in simple terms.

Especially "The liver dump is a good thing - it clears glycogen out of your liver that would only end up getting leaked out eventually. At least when it happens post exercise you are less insulin resistant, so the "spike" is unlikely to last for long" is very helpful. I will continue my marathon training.

Very useful discussion, containing clear explanations. From reading this I took a reading after my morning 3 mile walk:
fasting: 6.8
post walk : 5.7

Yorksman said:

On the whole, this is a good thing because you are losing weight whenever this happens.

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For most people, who do not eat a high protein diet, Gluconeogenesis isn't a good way to lose weight. It typically generates glucose from protein, thus damaging muscles as those are the primary source of protein in the body. If someone eats more than ~100g of protein a day, then the excess can be broken down.

If you are keto-adapted through not eating carbs, then you burn fats in place of carbs and there is less need to generate glucose from protein sources.