@Tannith what are you going to do once, and if, you manage to reverse your diabetes? Go back to eating ‘normally’ and risk being back where you started or try and maintain a non diabetic blood level? I have had a normal hba1c for approx 7 years and eat about 120g carbs per day; My FBS mostly ranges from between 4.4 and 5.6 yet, according to my DN, I am not in remission only well controlled. I believe I am in remission and the new GP I see in the practice believes I am no longer diabetic however, I would not like to risk increasing my BS by eating the same amount of so called ‘normal’ healthy foods such as wholemeal bread, pasta, rice, potatoes, low fat yoghurts, spreads etc and fruits such as bananas that I was before. As you can see from my carb intake I do still eat some of these but in moderation.Low cal is not the same as low carb. The two are "methods" of doing two totally different things. Low cal can reverse T2 whereas low carb can only lower blood sugar, (which can also be done with drugs like metformin). I am looking to REVERSE my T2. Just temporarily lowering blood sugar is not my goal. And the OGT measures beta cell function because it measures the body's SPEED of response to glucose, rather than just the total amount of glucose you have put into your blood by swallowing it (or not swallowing it, as in the case of low carb)
But Tannith is right when referring to thermodynamics. These are unbreakable laws of energy.
Can you supply any independent research references to support your opinion?You can ONLY lose weight with low carb if you use it as a low cal diet. If you don't replace the missing carbs with extra calories from fat then of course you reduce your calories and lose weight. But simply changing the macronutrient from which you derive your calories cannot cause weight loss, only lower BG.
Agreed. But as you say, the simple laws of thermodynamics that work well in a laboratory calorimeter do not easily account for the treatment of calories from a large amount of messy interactions from enzymes, hormones, gut bacteria, and more within a living organism - all of which may lead to many different and variously efficient routes of ATP and mitochondrial metabolism. So calories in, calories out is not particularly useful to help plan for many individuals for practical lifestyle management - they need to consider many other factors.It still comes down to calories in vs calories out. The reason it seems otherwise is because people mistake calories in as being measured at our mouths. But in reality, both calories in and out are a 'bottom-line' equation. After all the questions of satiety, dietary compliance, nutrient absorption/malabsorption and whether the body ramps up metabolism, increases heat or forces us to fidget via N.E.A.T, to burn any excess energy off, one is left with a number that is balanced against our actual/real caloric expenditure. An energy deficit will lead to needing to borrow from stored energy (fat and muscle bank), and an excess will allow one to make an energy deposit, to be used for another time.
Because we can't accurately measure the absolute calories in food, nor the energy that is lost through the various processes and inconsistencies, or the fact that us lay people certainly can't accurately measure our caloric expenditure (not to mention that none of this is neatly calcualated by the body in 24-hour time packages), it can seem like calories in/out does not compute. But Tannith is right when referring to thermodynamics. These are unbreakable laws of energy. Which is fortunate, because we'd never have survived as a species were it not for our ability to store and burn excess energy, at the appropriate times.
If our bodies were simplistic mechanical devices, then I might agree with you, but our bodies have an innate intelligence that regulates all the processes in our bodies better than the computers in the Space Shuttle.
While our food transits the intestines and colon, our body controls how and when it collects nutrients from the gut and usually this process is responding to another set of demand./ saity enzymes that alter what we accept from the food stream. Most of our meal appears at the other end and gets discarded. We know this contains the macronutrients from the meal since it can be placed into a sludge digester and produce methane which we can burn for energy, It also can be used as a fertilizer so has other nutrients still in the mix that did not get grabbed. So the calories-in does not represent what actually gets passed into our body for use.
We have now established that this is true of glucose, and also for lipids, so that fat in does not usually equal fat gain for example.
If it did then I would be severely obese instead of skinny.
I eat a high-fat diet, but my weight has been static for 5 years now and my BMI is 21.
I am a pensioner who is a couch potato in lockdown, but my mass is still unchanging whereas the CICO mantra states I should be ballooning.
I used to weigh nearly 17 stone, but after I started LCHF for my blood glucose control, I have dropped to 10 stone and stay there within 1 kg. My wife shared my diet, and she dropped from 18 stone to just over 9 stone at the same time. My waist lost 6 inches of girth as a result. So for me, Low Carb lost weight and gave me control of my BGL. I have never counted a calorie in my life. I do not even count carbs and I do not starve myself.
Re thermodynamics. What happens if you put less and less fuel on a fire? Does the fire still burn the same or does it give out less heat? What happens if you let the fire die down so low that even putting on more fuel does nothing to revive it? I well remember being told off as a kid for letting the log fire go out because I didn't keep it stocked up with the right fuel.
So isn't this what very low calorie diets do to our metabolism? Effectively damp down the fire? This is what happened to me when I followed them and my metabolism has never fully recovered.
Now, have you ever thrown the wrapper from a block of butter into the open log fire? Instant energy!
Throw enough fat wrappers in and the wood logs that had gone out come alight again. That's what happened to me when I added fat (and therefore calories) and reduced carbs. It's all about thermodynamics don't ya know? You need energy to burn the existing unused energy that the fire can't burn and the fat wrapper kickstarts the fire.
If you put the right type of calories in you get the right metabolic effect. As diabetics we are carb intolerant, so let's not put petrol into our diesel engines eh? Or we could carry on cutting down on fuel and expect the engine to work well running on almost empty. I go for butter by the slice, not bread, that's thermodynamics for you.
This is my lived experience.But there are an awful lot of people that believe that carbs cause weight-gain, regardless of quantity.
Sorry but our bodies are far from being a closed system.
The first law applies to closed systems like bomb calorimeters.
You rightly say that you cannot control used calories which is why calorie reduction leads to RMR slowing.
Changing what you eat is far more beneficial as it harnesses our hormones to help us rather than hinder
When are you going to stop giving information for those who have working systems, and start taking on board the comments and lived experience and differences for those with insulin challenges, and a different reaction to carbohydrates?I'm agreeing that the human body is not a closed system. I'm also using the term calorie as interchangeable with energy. We don't need calorimeters to show us what we already know i.e that excess consumption of external energy, past our energetic expenditure, will lead to storage and underconsumption of external energy, under our energetic expediture, will lead to burning of stores.
'Feast and famine' is a tale as old as time, and our ability to fatten up in times of abundance and plunder those stocks in times of scarcity has been fundamental in our up-to-this-point evolution, but also why we are primed to become obese within our current dietary environment.
Slowing of RMR is a natural response to reduced energetic needs from lost weight. But it is also the body's first line-of-defense against unnecessarily plundering reserves that it has sequestered for times of famine. It doesn't take much to break through that barrier and force the burning of stored energy.
And to clarify, I'm not particular referring to huge caloric-restriction, but consistent and manageable deficits.
Changing what we eat is likely a good idea, as most people who get overweight do so with diets not particularly well-aligned with health. As for harnessing hormones? If it helps you, then go for it
Agreed. But as you say, the simple laws of thermodynamics that work well in a laboratory calorimeter do not easily account for the treatment of calories from a large amount of messy interactions from enzymes, hormones, gut bacteria, and more within a living organism - all of which may lead to many different and variously efficient routes of ATP and mitochondrial metabolism. So calories in, calories out is not particularly useful to help plan for many individuals for practical lifestyle management - they need to consider many other factors.
When are you going to stop giving information for those who have working systems, and start taking on board the comments and lived experience and differences for those with insulin challenges, and a different reaction to carbohydrates?
You are giving no credence to the issue being addressed, in your replies. Information for those who do not have insulin issues is not relevant or applicable to those who have such issues with carb consumption.
And you havent yet answered what sort of diabetes you have or why you are on this forum.
how many calories are you eating a day on your plan? how are your blood sugar levels doing? what was you HbA1c before embarking on this diet, and what was it on diagnosis|? How long since diagnosis?I have type II diabetes, currently weigh 116 kilos. I started a 'program' 6 weeks ago, in which I decided to up my carbs to an average of 4-500 grams-a-day, and cut fat to around 10% of my calories, maintaining a macronutrient ratio of 80% carbs/10% protein/10% fat i.e essentially making my macronutrient ratio the diametric opposite of those on a ketogenic diet.
I started the program at 119 kilos, and for the purpose of trying to determine the effect of macro allotment only, I tried very hard not to lose any weight (Drastically cut exercise/walking). Despite that, I have managed to somehow lose 3 kilos on my 450g carb diet, which has included daily rice, bread and potato meals, along with occasional fizzy drinks and sugary tea.
My first day home OGTT was scary. Before testing I was at 14mmol/L and within 1 hour was literally off-the-charts (so high, my testing kit couldn't track it).
Suffice to say, I am coming from this whole discussion, and even my membership of this community, from a position of being absolutely diabetic, and extremely insulin-resistant. What I am trying to be is true to the experience of countless others who have paved the way before me; those who have gone from various incarnations of huge metabolic damage, including with diabetes, to healthy, thriving high-carbers.
So I apologise if it comes off as me being unsympathetic. I'm not. I'm not in any way claiming I am correct in this. Just trying to have a discussion with others who want to discuss these concepts, hopefully to the betterment of mine and others' knowledge.
I have type II diabetes, currently weigh 116 kilos. I started a 'program' 6 weeks ago, in which I decided to up my carbs to an average of 4-500 grams-a-day, and cut fat to around 10% of my calories, maintaining a macronutrient ratio of 80% carbs/10% protein/10% fat i.e essentially making my macronutrient ratio the diametric opposite of those on a ketogenic diet.
how many calories are you eating a day on your plan? how are your blood sugar levels doing? what was you HbA1c before embarking on this diet, and what was it on diagnosis|? How long since diagnosis?
I ask these questions as your results will be hard to interpret without that information.
I admit, I have never met any type 2 diabetic who is a healthy thriving high carber unless they have also had many meds too, or anyone eating the way you are, so this is very interesting stuff. What meds are you on?
The significance of a reading depends on when it is taken. A reading before food, after food, what food was eaten, and how much time has elapsed since the meal.Last I knew, I was testing at FBG of 9, as opposed to a reading of 18, which i saw at the beginning of January.
And how's that going for you?
So how on Earth are you going to assess what this program is achieving? No hb1ac before starting, few fbg , no after meal tests? Purely on weight?Been eating anywhere between 2200 and 3000 calories per day.
Not sure on my Blood sugar levels. They were trending down, with few bumps here and there. I can't afford to test too often, but also I don't want to be bound to the meter. Too many variables to contend with. Just trusting the process. Last I knew, I was testing at FBG of 9, as opposed to a reading of 18, which i saw at the beginning of January.
Did fall off plan for a while, but been better recently. Will test again, soon.
I don't know my HbA1c as i don't get tested at my doctors. Haven't been tested since my diagnosis of pre-diabetes a few years back.
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