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Why won't the NHS tell you the secret to treating diabetes?

Discussion in 'Diabetes Discussions' started by hyponilla, Nov 22, 2020.

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  1. bulkbiker

    bulkbiker Type 2 · Oracle

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    Forks over knives is hardly a "study" neither are Cyrus and Robbie's stories..

    Barnard followed his people for over a year and their diabetes worsened after the initial benefits..and that was only against standard diet advice. It really isn't very compelling.. but like a certain other on this thread you seem impervious to evidence.

    Best of luck.. you'll need it.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  2. Beating-My-Betes

    Beating-My-Betes · Well-Known Member

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    Well, I'm still a little curious as to why you think I'd be losing weight, despite all intentions to the opposite. It's not a monumental loss, but what do you suggest might be the reason i didn't gain a lot of weight, with between 3-500grams of carbs a day and all that elevated insulin. This ain't a gotcha. i'm generally interested.

    Again...six weeks ago I took an OGTT that took me from an fbg of 14 to over 30. This is no doubt a sign of extreme insulin resistance. Six weeks ago, eating 500g of potatoes would've meant me being unable to do anything but lie down for a few hours. But the 500g of potatoes I just ate have left me completely energised. I feel really good. No doubt my sugars are higher than they should be. No doubt they'll take longer than they should to come down. But whatever I've been doing in the last six weeks, i'm now tolerating high levels of carbs (Those potatoes carried 100grams) better than I could, previously.

    Haven't been to the doctor in years. Will go when I have this all under control. For my height, I'd probably do well to lose 50 kilos. But I'd like to convert some of that potential 50 into muscle. Will see how it pans out.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  3. HSSS

    HSSS Type 2 · Expert

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    Sorry catching up with the thread.

    Ever considered it’s your dietary choices - the largest by far factor in what happens to your bgl - that’s causing all of this?
    im still unclear how you think you’re doing this? is it purely about weight loss?
    I think you over estimate what a bad nights sleep can do and underestimate what food does.
    Is this a recognised plan? Which one?
    can I lay a wager if you ate low carb for 6 weeks you’d lose significantly more? As well as much better bgl. As a female of a certain age and much lower starting weight (which tends to mean slower loses) I lost at least a kilo a week in the first few months low carb. I am not unusual in this.
    is he type 2?

    looking at your protein (ignoring the more controversial carbs and proteins) it seems very low and significantly below the 1 to 1.5G per kg usually recommended as a minimum.
     
  4. Beating-My-Betes

    Beating-My-Betes · Well-Known Member

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    I get it. you like the science. me too. but just like MBaker, I also value anecdotes. Personally, I work on the idea of 'reasonable doubt', which for my own purposes is set at '1'. This means that you could show me a billion cases that backed up one position, and all I'd need to see is one example of the opposite being true, for me to no longer be able to claim absolutes.

    Here's a pertinent example: Before getting involved in the conversations on these forums, I believed the idea touted among plant-based proponents that a ketogenic diet could only ameliorate the symptoms of diabetes, by virtue of carb avoidance, but that remission could never actually be possible. It only took me seeing your OGTT, showing very good carb tolerance for me to completely reverse my previously-held belief. Puf! Just like that. Now, if i ever encounter a vegan telling me that only a HCLF diet works to put d2 in remission, I'll tell them that is false.

    As I've explained elsewhere on the forum, I've been in and around various diet and nutrition forums and communities for about 17-18 years. I've done the low-carb, primal, keto, high-carb, raw-vegan, fruitarian diets. But more than all of that, I've been in countless situations where I've had my long-held and even long-preached beliefs disintegrate in the face of contrary evidence, even if that evidence is anecdotal. That's why I'm only interested in getting to the truth, even if it contradicts what I think/thought.

    You, on the other hand, have posted that Barnard chart maybe five or six times. I've even found it in older posts, when I was reading. Even in the face of a growing mass of anecdotal evidence from people vastly improving on their own diabetes numbers and also on the numbers from Barnards' trials, (Not to mention huge amounts of weight-loss within an apparent insulin-heavy paradigm, and improvement of all aspects of their health) and the only thing you can manage to comment is "Forks over knives is hardly a "study" neither are Cyrus and Robbie's stories..". There's seemingly not the slightest curiosity on your part, or question-asking, to explore how all of these people are experiencing such marked health turnarounds, while doing the diametric of everything you hold to be true.

    Like I said, unless you can get people into metabolic wards, free-living studies are going to have limits; not least because of errors in reporting, lack of compliance etc. The same issues likely factored into the Virta studies, which I think bottomed out at an HbA1c of 6.2%, at a year, before then setting on a course sharply back upwards. Are the numbers lower than Barnard's trials? Of course. Turns out that when compliance is necessary many people will be able to stick to a diet of meat, eggs and butter with more success than sugarless oatmeal, with berries, and brown-rice with lentils. Either way, i find the Virta results to be wholly unremarkable. But I don't use that as evidence that a high-fat diet is ineffective either by total numbers, nor in the long-term. Why? because I only have to come here and read the hundreds of accounts of people leaving Virta's numbers in the dust.

    So, no....it's not that I'm impervious to evidence. I just take my evidence from a source of people who are dedicated to following this specific chosen diet, right here on this forum.

    In the coming years, those few pages of current FOK and MD success stories will expand exponentially. i wonder how many cases you'd have to read before finally relinquishing your "from my cold, dead hands" hold on that Barnard study :)


    ok
     
  5. Beating-My-Betes

    Beating-My-Betes · Well-Known Member

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    I'm profoundly insulin-resistant. That's what is causing the problem. But just like many others, I am planning to improve my insulin resistance without removing carbs

    Not purely about weight-loss, though it'll certainly factor into it

    Not at all. But if my numbers have been trending at 9, then a reading of 14 one morning is not worth suffering analysis paralysis over.

    Not following a specific plan, but MasteringDiabetes offer a similar high-carb low-fat plan

    Not only did I not plan to lose weight, I actually tried to avoid it. Did low-carb many years ago. Lost weight. Felt pretty good. Had my bubble well and truly burst by a guy known as PlantPositive.
    Weightloss is not rocket science, though.

    He is not diabetic. I just wanted to show an example of somebody who managed to maintain and build strength on an average of 50-60g of protein, per-day.

    0.8 grams of protein per kilo of lean mass is the normal recommendation I've always seen. Further to that, i'm not an athlete nor interested in building muscle past utility/survival levels.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  6. Tannith

    Tannith · Well-Known Member

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    "maximal rate of insulin secretion increased from 581 (480–811) pmol/min/m2 at baseline to 736 (542–998) pmol/min/m2 at 5 months, 942 (565–1,240) pmol/min/m2 at 12 months (P = 0.028 from baseline), and 936 (635–1,435) pmol/min/m2 at 24 months (P = 0.023 from baseline; n = 20 of 39 of those initially in remission). This was comparable to the NDC group (1,016 [857–1,507] pmol/min/m2) by 12 (P = 0.064) and 24 (P = 0.244) months. Median first-phase insulin response increased from baseline to 5 months (42 [4–67] to 107 [59–163] pmol/min/m2; P < 0.0001) and then remained stable at 12 and 24 months (110 [59–201] and 125 [65–166] pmol/min/m2, respectively; P < 0.0001 vs. baseline) but lower than that of the NDC group (250 [226–429] pmol/min/m2; P < 0.0001). Conclusions: A gradual increase in assessed functional β-cell capacity occurred after weight loss, becoming similar to NDC participants by 12 months. This was unchanged at 2 years with continuing remission of type 2 diabetes."
    This is what a weight loss diet (ANY weight loss diet) can do for your OGT results

    https://www.ncl.ac.uk/media/wwwnclacuk/newcastlemagneticresonancecentre/files/Taylor et al Cell Metabolism 2018.pdf
    I wish you the very best of luck with your diet and hope you will be posting your progress regularly on here despite the discouragement this community usually gives to people using conventional lower cal weight loss diets. Onwards and Upwards! (or rather downwards in the case of your weight!)
     
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  7. Beating-My-Betes

    Beating-My-Betes · Well-Known Member

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    I'd like to clarify an important distinction. My intended plan is not a weight-loss plan, though weight-loss will be a natural side-benefit. I will eventually be incorporating some juice-fasting and master-cleansing (Bought tons of maple-syrup at the beginning of lockdown, and I'll be ****** if I'm throwing that away). Other than that, I won't be going on a low-calorie diet. My plan will be to maintain a 2500-3000 calorie input, while creating an approximate 1000-calorie deficit via expenditure. I don't believe it's necessary to hit all RDAs every day, nor even every few days, but I'm aiming to do so. It'll be my health insurance/assurance :)

    That's not to say i doubt your program won't yield results. But if i were going to do a really low-calorie diet, it would be in the mould of Barbara Rolls' Volumetrics, which is similar to the plan that Penn Jilette used, on the ongoing advice of Ray Cronise, to lose 110 pounds in 3 months. Film-maker and comedian, Kevin Smith also followed Ray's program to lose a ton of weight, post heart-attack.

    It works, but I know at my age that kind of rapid weight-loss would necessitate loose-skin surgery. I'd rather try to regain my past fitness, and shed the pounds that way.

    But I really appreciate your well-wishes. And send them right back at you. Don't really feel there's a place for me, here, which is why I've been keeping a low-profile recently. But this thread has somewhat convinced me to return to the idea of keeping a blog.

    All the best :)

    [Mod edit inline with forum discretion on language.]
     
    • Like Like x 2
    #547 Beating-My-Betes, Mar 5, 2021 at 9:33 PM
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 5, 2021
  8. HSSS

    HSSS Type 2 · Expert

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    Thanks for your answers.
    I’m still baffled by how the high carb approach will reduce insulin resistance.
    why are you avoiding weight loss? Unless you’re a tall big boned guy 115+kg is pretty large. If you felt better with weight loss how does that bubble get burst? I get the black swan issue but this goes beyond that.
    14 is not analysis paralysis. It’s damage occurring levels, especially repeated more than occasionally. Quite frankly so is 9.
     
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  9. Goonergal

    Goonergal Type 2 · Moderator
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    All

    Following a moderator review, this thread has now been closed to further replies.

    While this is something of a last resort, the thread is no longer serving a useful purpose.

    The thread contains some useful debate and information sharing, but the discussion has now become circular and the topic has moved from a thread engaging a wide range of members to one with just a few contributors recycling the same entrenched points of view. It is therefore of limited value to anyone else.
     
    • Agree Agree x 6
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