Type 2 Will higher fat harm my good cholesterol readings?

[SunnyExpat]

Some research done a few years ago, (think I read it on a Dr Kendrick blog) showed that those with lower cholesterol died earlier than those with higher cho. The theory being that we produce more cholesterol the older we get because it protects the essential stuff. Makes sense to me.

You are quite right, it's a bath tub curve though. As cholesterol increases you die as well.

The trick is to stay in the sweet spot.
I won't quote the exact figure, as I can't remember it precisely, but I'm sure someone has a link to the chart.

 

[zand]

I have been wondering about that for a long time. Maybe the cholesterol increases because there is something wrong with you and the body is trying to heal itself. For too long this has been presumed to be a causal effect - that high cholesterol causes death. Maybe it's simply a correlation that someone who has something seriously wrong that they could die from has increased cholesterol. This is just me thinking aloud, so don't ask for links.

 

[serenity648]

I very much dislike the American names for items on the shopping list for the beginning of week1 tomorrow I start after spending a fortune at the supermarket on foods, I hope I eat, got back home and had to look up names on google to find out what they were, so I won't be doing well if I have to do that all the time, it means making a lot of work, and that's just not me when it comes to diets, so glad I don't have to weigh or count, as that was one of the reasons I only ever attended a couple of those ghastly weight losing clubs, then discover some folk go for fish and chips afterwards meaning they're not taking their weight problems serious, now on top of any worries on that score I've got type 2.

I read through the foods you can have 'till you're full' and it startled me to see so much fat, does anyone know, or can you point me to where I can find out if this does something to your cholesterol, as mine has never been high?

do you know what the breakdown of your cholesterol is?

My figure is 5.2, but 3.8 of that is HDL, so thats good. If my figure goes up next time, after trying the LCHF diet for 3 months, I will ask for the breakdown. If it had raised my LDL I will be having a think about my fat consumption. It it has gone over 5.2, but the raise is in HDL, I wont be concerned as that is an improvement in my cholesterol over all.

Thats the problem with a cholesterol reading with no breakdown. We could be trying to reduce what is actually a good healthy figure if the HDL is good.

As i said up thread, my LDL only caused concern when it was higher than my HDL when I used to eat margarine, transfats and the like, and tried to avoid naturally occurring fats in foods. Because of the genetic family cholesterol problem I get/got tested every 6 months to a year.

I avoid as many foods with additives, and ones which have been through processing unessential to food safety, as much as possible. That appears to have helped my HDL levels too, and reduced my LDL ones.

There is something about triglycerides too, but I have to rush out and I cant remember the info, I am sure someone else will fill you in on those.

 

[Oldvatr]

You are quite right, it's a bath tub curve though. As cholesterol increases you die as well.

The trick is to stay in the sweet spot.
I won't quote the exact figure, as I can't remember it precisely, but I'm sure someone has a link to the chart.

http://openheart.bmj.com/content/2/1/e000196.full
https://www.msdmanuals.com/en-gb/pr.../lipid-disorders/overview-of-lipid-metabolism
http://www.bmj.com/content/351/bmj.h3978
http://www.eufic.org/page/en/show/l...y-saturated-fats-cardiovascular-disease-risk/
http://www.nhs.uk/news/2014/03March/Pages/Saturated-fats-and-heart-disease-link-unproven.aspx

And for SunnyExpat:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3303886/

 

[Oldvatr]

I have been wondering about that for a long time. Maybe the cholesterol increases because there is something wrong with you and the body is trying to heal itself. For too long this has been presumed to be a causal effect - that high cholesterol causes death. Maybe it's simply a correlation that someone who has something seriously wrong that they could die from has increased cholesterol. This is just me thinking aloud, so don't ask for links.

If you think about it most of the pre 2006 studies into cholesterol and CVE / CVD used people with existing conditions, so experienced a higher mortality rate than the general population. Those tests were skewed and shown to be flawed. Post 2006 clinical trials and studies had to meet stricter regulation, and had to stop using the RR relative Risk statistical analysis method that was shown to be open to misinterpretation and willful exaggeration.

 

[Bluetit1802]

do you know what the breakdown of your cholesterol is?

My figure is 5.2, but 3.8 of that is HDL, so thats good. If my figure goes up next time, after trying the LCHF diet for 3 months, I will ask for the breakdown. If it had raised my LDL I will be having a think about my fat consumption. It it has gone over 5.2, but the raise is in HDL, I wont be concerned as that is an improvement in my cholesterol over all.

Thats the problem with a cholesterol reading with no breakdown. We could be trying to reduce what is actually a good healthy figure if the HDL is good.

As i said up thread, my LDL only caused concern when it was higher than my HDL when I used to eat margarine, transfats and the like, and tried to avoid naturally occurring fats in foods. Because of the genetic family cholesterol problem I get/got tested every 6 months to a year.

I avoid as many foods with additives, and ones which have been through processing unessential to food safety, as much as possible. That appears to have helped my HDL levels too, and reduced my LDL ones.

There is something about triglycerides too, but I have to rush out and I cant remember the info, I am sure someone else will fill you in on those.

Triglycerides are the important ones to keep as low as possible and is the figure we should all know.

Not all LDL is bad. There are 2 sorts, which are not separated in our routine tests. There are little hard ones (very bad) and big fluffy ones (good). The lower your triglycerides, the more of the big fluffy LDL particles you will have and less of the little hard baddies. The higher your trigs the more of the little hard baddies you will have. There are tests available to see what your LDL is made up of, but these are not routinely done in the UK.

 

[JohnEGreen]

One thing Ancel Keys did say and he was quite adamant about it was that diet does not affect serum cholesterol levels to any significant degree.

 

[chri5]

Triglycerides are the important ones to keep as low as possible and is the figure we should all know.

Not all LDL is bad. There are 2 sorts, which are not separated in our routine tests. There are little hard ones (very bad) and big fluffy ones (good). The lower your triglycerides, the more of the big fluffy LDL particles you will have and less of the little hard baddies. The higher your trigs the more of the little hard baddies you will have. There are tests available to see what your LDL is made up of, but these are not routinely done in the UK.

Hi, according to Dr Malcolm Kendrick if your trigs are below 1 you are not producing any of the small dense ones.

 

[Bluetit1802]

Hi, according to Dr Malcolm Kendrick if your trigs are below 1 you are not producing any of the small dense ones.

That is good to know. I mustn't have any then.

 

[Oldvatr]

Hi, according to Dr Malcolm Kendrick if your trigs are below 1 you are not producing any of the small dense ones.

small dense ones = hard ones (very bad). It is these sdLDL particles that are linked to arterial disease because they are damaged, and the body cannot decode them, so the HDL sweepers do not collect them, and the liver rejects them. fluffy LDL has the right markers attached, so are properly dealt with by our endocrine system, and are not a danger to us (fluffy = good) So sdLDL is the debris left after a car accident that the breakdown services (aka HDL) cannot pick up after the accident. Some antioxidents might be able to remove some of this rubbish, but so far there is no really effective supplement that we can take to clean out our arteries. .

Smoking, alcohol and diabetes up the odds of us having these LDL crashes, but it seems high fat is no longer seen as a contributor to this mayhem. A high carb diet does seem to increase the odds too. Time and further research will tell us more about this outcome

 

[Dark Horse]

One thing Ancel Keys did say and he was quite adamant about it was that diet does not affect serum cholesterol levels to any significant degree.

I think he said that dietary cholesterol does not affect serum cholesterol rather than diet does not affect serum cholesterol.

 

[zand]

That is good to know. I mustn't have any then.

Me neither

 

[Oldvatr]

I think he said that dietary cholesterol does not affect serum cholesterol rather than diet does not affect serum cholesterol.

Although i have not fully studied Ancel Keys work (mainly because it is not available online) but he seems to be seriously debunked. it would appear that his 7 Countries study originally started out with 22 countries being studied, but suddenly this was reduced to 7, and these were the ones that were closest to fitting his hypothesis, in other words cherry picking. His original data has been lost now, and all we have are his final graphs and conclusiions. Subsequent RCT trials have shown his conclusions to be unfounded, apart from Framlingham, which used dodgy statistical analysis methods (i.e. PETO) to back up the NHS guidelines. New meta studies have shown Framlingham to be discredited. One of these meta studies shows that there is no link between dietary cholesterol and out lipid panel results.

So for me it does not matter one jot what he said about this.

 

[serenity648]

Triglycerides are the important ones to keep as low as possible and is the figure we should all know.

Not all LDL is bad. There are 2 sorts, which are not separated in our routine tests. There are little hard ones (very bad) and big fluffy ones (good). The lower your triglycerides, the more of the big fluffy LDL particles you will have and less of the little hard baddies. The higher your trigs the more of the little hard baddies you will have. There are tests available to see what your LDL is made up of, but these are not routinely done in the UK.

Thank you for explaining that.

 

[NoCrbs4Me]

3.8 of that is HDL

Are you sure? That sounds more like your total/HDL ratio.

 

[serenity648]

Are you sure? That sounds more like your total/HDL ratio.

thats what the nurse said. HDL 3.8, LDL 1.4

I dont know what you mean about the ratio. would you mind explaining please? Getting any info out of the nurse was like pulling teeth, so if I have to ask more questions, I would like to know what to ask. I usually just get one figure, which I assume is both the LDL and HDL together? maybe?

 

[NoCrbs4Me]

thats what the nurse said. HDL 3.8, LDL 1.4

I dont know what you mean about the ratio. would you mind explaining please? Getting any info out of the nurse was like pulling teeth, so if I have to ask more questions, I would like to know what to ask. I usually just get one figure, which I assume is both the LDL and HDL together? maybe?

I highly recommend you get a print out of your lab results. I had a meeting with my diabetes nurse last week and she thought my HDL was 4.4 at first, but then she looked closer and it was the total/HDL ratio. This is simply your total cholesterol divided by HDL. Total cholesterol is not LDL + HDL. LDL is calculated from total cholesterol, HDL, and triglycerides using a mathematical formula.

 

[serenity648]

Thanks again. I will try to get a print out next week. if i do, can i get back to you with my numbers so you can help me make sense of them please?

I saw my doctor today (foot problem), and, whilst she didnt actually say anything negative about the nurse, did go through my liver,kidney etc figures with me and recommend I not rely on the nurse to be pro-active but to make sure i get appointments and tests myself, and she (my doctor) is always happy to see me. I wish i had asked her about my cholesterol now. But 5.2 total cholesterol is definitely right.

 

[Bluetit1802]

thats what the nurse said. HDL 3.8, LDL 1.4

I dont know what you mean about the ratio. would you mind explaining please? Getting any info out of the nurse was like pulling teeth, so if I have to ask more questions, I would like to know what to ask. I usually just get one figure, which I assume is both the LDL and HDL together? maybe?

You need a print out. These figures look all wrong to me. They may be the wrong way round, or the 3.8 may be a ratio as @NoCrbs4Me suggests. The Total is calculated and is normally HDL + LDL + 20% of the Trigs.

There are different ratios. Total cholesterol divided by HDL, (TC/LDL), Non-HDL (LDL plus Trigs) and Trigs dvided by HDL (Trigs/HDL) All these should be as low as possible. I get confused as to the actual desired levels because many of the websites showing them are American and they have different units. The figures I have are:
TC/HDL under 4
Non HDL under 3.4
Trigs/HDL under 0.8mmol/l

But these may not be correct. Maybe someone has the correct ones for the UK measurements?

 

[SunnyExpat]

One thing Ancel Keys did say and he was quite adamant about it was that diet does not affect serum cholesterol levels to any significant degree.

Yes, he seems to have been wrong on a lot of things.