Wrong message - AGAIN

[Brunneria]

Hi Scardoc
Saying that being overweight is a major risk factor for T2d is putting the cart before the horse. Over weight is caused by an unbalanced diet, an unbalanced lifestyle or a combination of both. If as a consequence we contract T2d then it is due to those factors, not by being overweight.

I would go even further, and say that most people (in countries subject to the 'diabetes epidemic') are living an unbalanced lifestyle and eating an unbalanced diet. The ones who become overweight and/or develop type 2 diabetes do so because they are less physically able to tolerate that lifestyle/diet.

As @statistical says, weight gain is a symptom, not the cause.

 

[this is too difficult]

I have no Idea if eating that way can stop you being diabetic, But I an sure that I cant eat that way now that I am Diabetic.

 

[Indy51]

Interesting that Dr Michael Moseley has now changed his tune on saturated fat:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/a...s-The-Fast-Diet-author-DR-MICHAEL-MOSLEY.html

 

[Gudrun]

Interesting that Dr Michael Moseley has now changed his tune on saturated fat:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/a...s-The-Fast-Diet-author-DR-MICHAEL-MOSLEY.html

Thanks for that link, Indy. I'm glad we are getting away from the warnings about fat.

 

[Scandichic]

I have no Idea if eating that way can stop you being diabetic, But I an sure that I cant eat that way now that I am Diabetic.

I can't eat that way either!
I went over to Asda to get some cheese (the fridge section was broken and all the cheese was out the back) but couldn't wait as only had 10 mins of lunch break left and bought a very small fruit salad (strawbs, melon, kiwi) . I measured bs before 6.6 and after 10.8. It took 3 hours for the spoke to get to 7.2. I love fruit and am envious @AnnieC that you can eat it! I bet @Gudrun is too! Infact all of us who can't tolerate it! I can manage blueberries and raspberries in very small quantities.
I am pleased for anyone who manages to control their bs and weight whatever diet they choose. I am fed up of being bashed over the head by HCPs who refuse to accept that there is more than one way to achieve this.
Like @kesun I do not find it helpful that people continually mention weight when talking about T2 as it is obvious that there are several other factors such as genetics but people often latch onto the weight thing and use it in part of the blame game with T2.

 

[Gudrun]

I can't eat that way either!
I went over to Asda to get some cheese (the fridge section was broken and all the cheese was out the back) but couldn't wait as only had 10 mins of lunch break left and bought a very small fruit salad (strawbs, melon, kiwi) . I measured bs before 6.6 and after 10.8. It took 3 hours for the spoke to get to 7.2. I love fruit and am envious @AnnieC that you can eat it! I bet @Gudrun is too! Infact all of us who can't tolerate it! I can manage blueberries and raspberries in very small quantities.
I am pleased for anyone who manages to control their bs and weight whatever diet they choose. I am fed up of being bashed over the head by HCPs who refuse to accept that there is more than one way to achieve this.
Like @kesun I do not find it helpful that people continually mention weight when talking about T2 as it is obvious that there are several other factors such as genetics but people often latch onto the weight thing and use it in part of the blame game with T2.

I love fruit, especially strawberries. Have been eating two punnets each day for weeks now (as well as blueberries, raspberries, etc,). Having to lose about 5 stone or so (42 kg) and finding it really hard (having to fight for each pound lost), I decided to quit eating fruit and seriously start on the LCHF. Followed the dietdoctor advice (cream in my coffee, rather than milk; added cream to my scrambled eggs, used more olive oil or butter to fry my bacon; lots of oily fish etc.) and because of the extra fat was full much quicker (and for longer). Within 3 days (three days) I lost a staggering 2.2 kg.

Admittedly, it's mostly water, but I'm thrilled. Thrilled enough to pass on all the biscuits on offer at a meeting last night. Wasn't even tempted (and that's a first for me).

Obesity may well be a factor, but as Scandi says it is not the only factor. In my family (apart from one niece) I am the only one who is not diabetic (only prediabetic) and this clearly shows the importance of genes.

 

[Brunneria]

I love fruit, especially strawberries. Have been eating two punnets each day for weeks now (as well as blueberries, raspberries, etc,). Having to lose about 5 stone or so (42 kg) and finding it really hard (having to fight for each pound lost), I decided to quit eating fruit and seriously start on the LCHF. Followed the dietdoctor advice (cream in my coffee, rather than milk; added cream to my scrambled eggs, used more olive oil or butter to fry my bacon; lots of oily fish etc.) and because of the extra fat was full much quicker (and for longer). Within 3 days (three days) I lost a staggering 2.2 kg.

Admittedly, it's mostly water, but I'm thrilled. Thrilled enough to pass on all the biscuits on offer at a meeting last night. Wasn't even tempted (and that's a first for me).

Obesity may well be a factor, but as Scandi says it is not the only factor. In my family (apart from one niece) I am the only one who is not diabetic (only prediabetic) and this clearly shows the importance of genes.

Careful, @Gudrun
You get a taste for all that gorgeous, lovely, rich buttery goodness, and then there is no going back... Doomed, for life, to enjoying your food.
But don't tell anyone, or the NHS will place you in the Naughty Corner.

 

[phoenix]

On the T2 course here (which on food was very much like the T1 course, I went with a friend to help with language) you would be told not to eat fruit as a meal. .
The balanced meal which someone questioned earlier very relevant, fruit should normally be part of a balanced meal.https://www.afd.asso.fr/diabetique/equilibre-alimentaire
ie with protein/veg/dairy/fruit /starch (could be legumes which were emphasised or spoon of brown rice or bread)
This of course is the advantage of the 2 hour lunch hour , you don't have to rush to the shop (in fact apart from the out of town supermarkets you will find most are closed)
A fruit portion is considered to be about 100g At the T2 course they stressed that some was good and necessary but not to eat large amounts.
On the other hand, if on hypoglycaemic medication (Glic/insulin) and a bit low before going for a walk then they would tell you to eat a fruit in preference to anything else.

 

[Gudrun]

Careful, @Gudrun
You get a taste for all that gorgeous, lovely, rich buttery goodness, and then there is no going back... Doomed, for life, to enjoying your food.
But don't tell anyone, or the NHS will place you in the Naughty Corner.

And it just tastes so much better.. last night I had chicken with bacon and asparagus in a sauce made with single cream (no water added). Today I shall have some hard boiled eggs with smoked salmon and a bit of boursin (garlic cheese; full fat, of course) for lunch. Tonight mushrooms with onion and garlic, cooked in coconut cream (utterly delicious) and perhaps a bit of fried bacon. For breakfast this morning I had a couple of hot and spicy chicken legs (loved the skin).

 

[AnnieC]

I love fruit, especially strawberries. Have been eating two punnets each day for weeks now (as well as blueberries, raspberries, etc,). Having to lose about 5 stone or so (42 kg) and finding it really hard (having to fight for each pound lost), I decided to quit eating fruit and seriously start on the LCHF. Followed the dietdoctor advice (cream in my coffee, rather than milk; added cream to my scrambled eggs, used more olive oil or butter to fry my bacon; lots of oily fish etc.) and because of the extra fat was full much quicker (and for longer). Within 3 days (three days) I lost a staggering 2.2 kg.

Admittedly, it's mostly water, but I'm thrilled. Thrilled enough to pass on all the biscuits on offer at a meeting last night. Wasn't even tempted (and that's a first for me).

Obesity may well be a factor, but as Scandi says it is not the only factor. In my family (apart from one niece) I am the only one who is not diabetic (only prediabetic) and this clearly shows the importance of genes.

You see I could not eat that way I don't think my stomach would tolerate all that fat after so many years of a low fat diet I am not a big meat eater usually only chicken and grilled or baked fish so eating more meat would not be an option as I don't really like it
I don't test very much any more because I was getting paranoid about it if I did not get the levels I expected until I realised you can't really take what the meter says as gospel anyway as whatever the levels were it was only for that particular moment in time, test the same food another time and levels were different I could eat something one day and levels would be fine eat the same thing another day and the levels would be much higher so that did not tell me at all as to what raised me
.If I had believed the meter I could have given up foods that I can eat perfectly well . This is the reason constant testing is not recommended for T2's simply because levels vary so much from day to day Even non diabetics can get high BG readings after eating certain foods thats how the body works.
I am prediabetic have been for a few years now and have never been overweight in my life... current weight 8.8 st... not that my doctor uses the phrase prediabetic she says you are either diabetic or you are not . I take statins so I am more predisposed to diabetes even if I stopped them it would not change that now .

 

[Brunneria]

You see I could not eat that way I don't think my stomach would tolerate all that fat after so many years of a low fat diet I am not a big meat eater usually only chicken and grilled or baked fish so eating more meat would not be an option as I don't really like it
I don't test very much any more because I was getting paranoid about it if I did not get the levels I expected until I realised you can't really take what the meter says as gospel anyway as whatever the levels were it was only for that particular moment in time, test the same food another time and levels were different I could eat something one day and levels would be fine eat the same thing another day and the levels would be much higher so that did not tell me at all as to what raised me
.If I had believed the meter I could have given up foods that I can eat perfectly well . This is the reason constant testing is not recommended for T2's simply because levels vary so much from day to day Even non diabetics can get high BG readings after eating certain foods thats how the body works.
I am prediabetic have been for a few years now and have never been overweight in my life... current weight 8.8 st... not that my doctor uses the phrase prediabetic she says you are either diabetic or you are not . I take statins so I am more predisposed to diabetes even if I stopped them it would not change that now .

I'm glad you've found something that works for you - because we are all different!

However, if you are following a low fat diet of any kind, please be aware of the essential vitamins and fatty acids that we all need for healthy skin and brain function, and supplement if necessary.

There are no essential carbohydrates, but there are several essential nutrients in fats, and recent studies (and the examination of older studies) have shown that lowering fat levels too far have negative health implications.

 

[Harpar]

On the T2 course here (which on food was very much like the T1 course, I went with a friend to help with language) you would be told not to eat fruit as a meal. .
The balanced meal which someone questioned earlier very relevant, fruit should normally be part of a balanced meal.https://www.afd.asso.fr/diabetique/equilibre-alimentaire
ie with protein/veg/dairy/fruit /starch (could be legumes which were emphasised or spoon of brown rice or bread)
This of course is the advantage of the 2 hour lunch hour , you don't have to rush to the shop (in fact apart from the out of town supermarkets you will find most are closed)
A fruit portion is considered to be about 100g At the T2 course they stressed that some was good and necessary but not to eat large amounts.
On the other hand, if on hypoglycaemic medication (Glic/insulin) and a bit low before going for a walk then they would tell you to eat a fruit in preference to anything else.

My endo told me to eat a minimum of 150g carb per day, if I even attempt 30g carb at a meal i get to double figures, so even to consume 90g carb would mean a spike into double numbers 3 times a day - personally I don't think that is a good idea. As for eating fruit as part of a meal, I certainly wouldn't be able to eat an orange after dinner for example, I could eat it instead of a dinner but not as well as. But as I have just been told that postprandial spikes do not matter and that mine are all in my head, don't suppose it matters much, can't think yourself diabetic ! !

 

[Scardoc]

Hi Scardoc
Saying that being overweight is a major risk factor for T2d is putting the cart before the horse. Over weight is caused by an unbalanced diet, an unbalanced lifestyle or a combination of both. If as a consequence we contract T2d then it is due to those factors, not by being overweight.

Excess fat, particularly around the stomach, is known to cause insulin resistance so regardless of the reasons behind someone being overweight, and they are numerous, it is a major risk factor.

 

[Scardoc]

I would go even further, and say that most people (in countries subject to the 'diabetes epidemic') are living an unbalanced lifestyle and eating an unbalanced diet. The ones who become overweight and/or develop type 2 diabetes do so because they are less physically able to tolerate that lifestyle/diet.

As @statistical says, weight gain is a symptom, not the cause.

As above, weight gain is very much one of the causes as it’s excess fat causing the insulin resistance. Weight gain may be a symptom in some cases and is certainly a symptom for a huge raft of other conditions such as poverty, mental illness, physical disability etc etc.
What I am saying is: it may not be the single root cause but it is a cause and as such it is a very important factor in identifying those at risk of developing T2.

". The ones who become overweight and/or develop type 2 diabetes do so because they are less physically able to tolerate that lifestyle/diet."
I don’t buy this at all. Are you saying that the general population (especially children) are getting fatter these days because they have suddenly become less able to tolerate junk food or a lack of exercise? We’re every bit as physically able as we’ve always been but we choose to be less physically active. Yes, modern technology and urbanisation has reduced the calories we burn but we still have a choice as adults to exercise and, as parents, to switch off the electronic gizmo and throw the kids outside (not literally!). Or walk to work and make them walk to school. We still have the choice to eat a balanced diet.

 

[AnnieC]

I'm glad you've found something that works for you - because we are all different!

However, if you are following a low fat diet of any kind, please be aware of the essential vitamins and fatty acids that we all need for healthy skin and brain function, and supplement if necessary.

There are no essential carbohydrates, but there are several essential nutrients in fats, and recent studies (and the examination of older studies) have shown that lowering fat levels too far have negative health implications.

Well I have been doing low fat for some years now and it has not harmed me yet I am 75 and in good health no other medical problems and good mobility so I think I will go on following my GP's advice about low fat

 

[phoenix]

My endo told me to eat a minimum of 150g carb per day, if I even attempt 30g carb at a meal i get to double figures, so even to consume 90g carb would mean a spike into double numbers 3 times a day - personally I don't think that is a good idea. As for eating fruit as part of a meal, I certainly wouldn't be able to eat an orange after dinner for example, I could eat it instead of a dinner but not as well as. But as I have just been told that postprandial spikes do not matter and that mine are all in my head, don't suppose it matters much, can't think yourself diabetic ! !

I don't know where you got 90g carb from, I doubt I ever eat that much in a meal. There is about 12g carb in 100g of apple., about 11g in Kiwi fruit and 6g in strawberries. The reason that they say to eat the fruit with a meal is that the other elements in the meal will delay absorption. If you have some insulin of your own this will be more likely to be able deal with the post prandial spike over time than if you eat the fruit alone. (there is a nice image from the GI site comparing the results of a deluge of rain (a puddle) with the same amount of rain as a drizzle (it's absorbed into the ground).
The target given here is 50mg/dl (2.7mmol/l) rise at 2 hours .

There is a lot of debate/controversy about the role of postprandial spikes in the development of complications. Not going to attempt to write about it.
Glycemic Variability, both sides of the issue http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/36/Supplement_2/S272.full
Key conclusion 'This article brings into focus how the role of glucose variability in the development of vascular complications in diabetes remains unresolved.'

 

[Brunneria]

As above, weight gain is very much one of the causes as it’s excess fat causing the insulin resistance. Weight gain may be a symptom in some cases and is certainly a symptom for a huge raft of other conditions such as poverty, mental illness, physical disability etc etc.
What I am saying is: it may not be the single root cause but it is a cause and as such it is a very important factor in identifying those at risk of developing T2.

". The ones who become overweight and/or develop type 2 diabetes do so because they are less physically able to tolerate that lifestyle/diet."
I don’t buy this at all. Are you saying that the general population (especially children) are getting fatter these days because they have suddenly become less able to tolerate junk food or a lack of exercise? We’re every bit as physically able as we’ve always been but we choose to be less physically active. Yes, modern technology and urbanisation has reduced the calories we burn but we still have a choice as adults to exercise and, as parents, to switch off the electronic gizmo and throw the kids outside (not literally!). Or walk to work and make them walk to school. We still have the choice to eat a balanced diet.

Nice re-interpretation of my words.
Unfortunately, it proves you didn't read them properly.

 

[statistical]

As above, weight gain is very much one of the causes as it’s excess fat causing the insulin resistance. Weight gain may be a symptom in some cases and is certainly a symptom for a huge raft of other conditions such as poverty, mental illness, physical disability etc etc.
What I am saying is: it may not be the single root cause but it is a cause and as such it is a very important factor in identifying those at risk of developing T2.

". The ones who become overweight and/or develop type 2 diabetes do so because they are less physically able to tolerate that lifestyle/diet."
I don’t buy this at all. Are you saying that the general population (especially children) are getting fatter these days because they have suddenly become less able to tolerate junk food or a lack of exercise? We’re every bit as physically able as we’ve always been but we choose to be less physically active. Yes, modern technology and urbanisation has reduced the calories we burn but we still have a choice as adults to exercise and, as parents, to switch off the electronic gizmo and throw the kids outside (not literally!). Or walk to work and make them walk to school. We still have the choice to eat a balanced diet.

Insulin resistance is due to the over consumption of carbs. The effect/result of the overeating is weight gain.

 

[Harpar]

I don't know where you got 90g carb from, I doubt I ever eat that much in a meal. There is about 12g carb in 100g of apple., about 11g in Kiwi fruit and 6g in strawberries. The reason that they say to eat the fruit with a meal is that the other elements in the meal will delay absorption. If you have some insulin of your own this will be more likely to be able deal with the post prandial spike over time than if you eat the fruit alone. (there is a nice image from the GI site comparing the results of a deluge of rain (a puddle) with the same amount of rain as a drizzle (it's absorbed into the ground).
The target given here is 50mg/dl (2.7mmol/l) rise at 2 hours .

There is a lot of debate/controversy about the role of postprandial spikes in the development of complications. Not going to attempt to write about it.
Glycemic Variability, both sides of the issue http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/36/Supplement_2/S272.full
Key conclusion 'This article brings into focus how the role of glucose variability in the development of vascular complications in diabetes remains unresolved.'

What I was saying is that the current recommended carb intake for a female is 150g per day, or at least that what my endo told me, if divided over 3 meals, thats 50g per meal. I cannot eat anything like 30g per meal, if I do, I would have a double figure BG at every meal. I currently have around 15-18g max per meal, which if I have vegetables means that there would be no carbs left for fruit. Also, a small meal is about all I can eat at a time, no physical room either for any fruit. so for me its and either / or situation, not an eat fruit as well as a meal. For those who are lucky enough to be able to eat more carbs and bigger meals, then perhaps eating fruit with a meal is better. I fully understand the logic behind the eat with a meal, just personally can't do it.

 

[Scardoc]

Insulin resistance is due to the over consumption of carbs. The effect/result of the overeating is weight gain.

I may be reading this wrong. Are you saying that only weight gained by over consumption of carbs causes insulin resistance?