X-pert course updated to include LCHF

Oldvatr

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bulkbiker, I think you miss understand my point While I appreciate that you only wish to help. But trying to forcing your opinions on me, is I feel totally the wrong approach. You said "Your doctor is obliged" My doctor took an oath to "first do no harm" so until he is 100% sure he is not going going to give me what could be bad advice. I am also 100% sure he is not going to second guess or follow any "NICE" guidelines.........

...... I have come to realize my friend has gone down the road of taking things a bit to far in his HFLC diet. Thank you.
BulkBiker is right. All HCP's working in the NHS have to sign a contract of employment that in effect binds them to the NICE guidelines. This protects them from class action lawsuits in the event things go wrong. NICE regulates through these guidelines what medicines and procedures they can or cannot prescribe, and what process to follow while dealing with patients. It is a tick box exercise. A GP would be going against his practice manager if he or she steps out of line. It is like the Party Whip in the Commons.

The Eatwell and diet advice is also embedded into NHS training for their staff , so a GP has to do a lot of private research to come to agreement on alternative treatments. This is time most GPs do not have much of. Again, it takes a brave professional to go against the establishment tide.
 
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catherinecherub

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If anyone decides that it is a good idea to highjack this thread and direct personal comments to other participants then they will be banned from this thread and possibly receive a temporary ban from the forum if they decide to repeat their actions.
Can we please carry on directing posts towards the topic and keep calm when replying to a post that you do not agree with rather than trying to belittle the poster..
Newbies may be watching this thread to see the pros and cons of a LC diet and it is off-putting for them to see negative posts as an introduction to the forum rather than all the support that is offered here.
 
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Daphne917

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Thank you Daphne917 For the moment this is the strategy I am adopting, I love pasta and roast potatoes with a Sunday lunch the thought of never being able to have them any more is very depressing.
Hi @Bobby59 I still eat roast potatoes but only have 2 little ones. Be careful with pasta as this is quite high carb but I have found that I can eat a small portion which has been cooked, cooled and then re-heated w/out sending my BS too high.
 

Lindy1706

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That's was still the message less than a year ago.

I was given the eat Badly plate and low GI advice on Tuesday when the practice nurse gave me my diagnosis.....When I mentioned LCHF I got the horrified "not with your cholesterol levels" and when I asked about the 800 calorie blood sugar diet that was classed as "totally ridiculous and dangerours and and impossible to stick to".....sigh!
 

Brunneria

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I was given the eat Badly plate and low GI advice on Tuesday when the practice nurse gave me my diagnosis.....When I mentioned LCHF I got the horrified "not with your cholesterol levels" and when I asked about the 800 calorie blood sugar diet that was classed as "totally ridiculous and dangerours and and impossible to stick to".....sigh!

[irony]
Always good to see a medical professional with an open mind!
[/irony]

but doesn't it give you the most wonderful motivation to go back in a few months with new blood scores and prove her WRONG!
 
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dbr10

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I was given the eat Badly plate and low GI advice on Tuesday when the practice nurse gave me my diagnosis.....When I mentioned LCHF I got the horrified "not with your cholesterol levels" and when I asked about the 800 calorie blood sugar diet that was classed as "totally ridiculous and dangerours and and impossible to stick to".....sigh!
I know. Coming on top of the diagnosis, the advice to eat carbs when we are carbohydrate intolerant is just another blow. Then there is the actual treatment which does not seem to me to be aggressive enough and, of course, uses the cheapest drugs. It all destroys any confidence we might have had that the NHS might actually look after us. There can be a problem with cholesterol on LCHF and some on here seem to favour vegetable fat for that reason. I am still trying to find the right balance as far as it is possible. Good luck.
 

Bobby59

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@Bobby59 If you are 100% sure of your doctor's advice, why do you anticipate trying a LCHF diet against his advice sometime in the future?

He has not said not to use it. Just not until it is fully endorsed with more research. There was no hidden meaning between the lines so why are you looking for one there? Could the HFLC diet be yet one more diet fad?

@Bobby59 Also, why do you think your friend has taken LCHF too far?

I think this because my friend is avoiding the smallest carbs intake even when it is only suspected. He simply dose not look to be a well man. The facade he maintains of being well and happy is very thin much like him self. But he is a committed and dare I say fanatical man and there simply is no arguing the toss with him. I was left wondering is this the typical HFLC dieter, slowly I am starting to think may be it is.
 
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Bobby59

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@dbr10 Firstly apologies for hijacking your thread rather....
@Bobby59 what you decide to do is up to you. I will bow out of this discussion.

I could not agree more. Thank you my apologies, my comments were meant to open a productive debate. But instead I got a bit of a personal bashing for not bowing to the status quo that seems to be going on here. As the nice man said He clearly can not understand what it is I am dong here as he clearly fails to see any possibility of there being any thing untoward with the HFLC diet a lot like my fanatical friend.

A question that I feel is very important. Given the history of supposed fantastic diets and miraculous cures. It is possible the HFLC diet is little more than yet one more fad. I look at the sudden turn around in medical science from fats being bad to fats being good all most over night as breath taking. I wonder why this amazing change of events strangely came along with a increase of Type Two Diabetes.

Some years ago I heard a story of a wall in a small town in America. After a big storm a faint image of what looked like a man with long hair and a beard and what looked like a halo around his head on the wall. Soon enough the image was thought to be that of Jesus Christ and people came from all over to see it and prey next to it. Some claimed to have been cured of illness because of it. This went on for many years making the small town very popular. Then one day there was another big storm when the dust settled clear as it could be on the wall was a painted advert for cigarettes with a depiction of a long hair, beard cowboy and his ten gallon hat..
 
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Bobby59

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[irony]
Always good to see a medical professional with an open mind!
[/irony]

but doesn't it give you the most wonderful motivation to go back in a few months with new blood scores and prove her WRONG

If you took 100 or 1,000 of your friends back with the same good results then you are proving some thing to her. Going back with just your results is for her insouciant research.
 

NoCrbs4Me

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He has not said not to use it. Just not until it is fully endorsed with more research. There was no hidden meaning between the lines so why are you looking for one there? Could the HFLC diet be yet one more diet fad?
I'm not looking for any hidden meaning, I just find it odd that you have come up with many reasons against LCHF, then say "I am looking to use the HFLC diet at some stage". I doubt LCHF will ever be "fully endorsed", so you won't have to worry about that. If your doctor said to you that "the jury is still out and I should just stick to a balanced diet for now", that sounds a lot like he is saying not to use LCHF. I'm sorry if I misunderstood. Perhaps you you should ask him for clarification.

What do you mean by your friend is "taking things a bit to far in his HFLC diet"? Has your friend's health been damaged by LCHF?

LCHF certainly could be a fad diet, although there is already plenty of research on it and it has been around for a few millennia. Does your doctor endorse the new Eatwell Guide? The Eatwell Guide is what the government recommends everyone follow, including diabetics. Is that what you'll be following? i.e. is that what you consider to be a "balanced diet"?

Anyway, LCHF can be difficult for people to accept since it goes against decades of the government telling us to minimize fat intake and eat lots of starchy food. I urge you to keep an open mind as LCHF has resulted in quite a large number of us on this forum achieving normal blood sugar levels without any medication, going from obese or overweight to normal weight, improving there lipid profile, lowering their blood pressure, etc.
 

AndBreathe

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I could not agree more. Thank you my apologies, my comments were meant to open a productive debate. But instead I got a bit of a personal bashing for not bowing to the status quo that seems to be going on here. As the nice man said He clearly can not understand what it is I am dong here as he clearly fails to see any possibility of there being any thing untoward with the HFLC diet a lot like my fanatical friend.

A question that I feel is very important. Given the history of supposed fantastic diets and miraculous cures. It is possible the HFLC diet is little more than yet one more fad. I look at the sudden turn around in medical science from fats being bad to fats being good all most over night as breath taking. I wonder why this amazing change of events strangely came along with a increase of Type Two Diabetes.

Some years ago I heard a story of a wall in a small town in America. After a big storm a faint image of what looked like a man with long hair and a beard and what looked like a halo around his head on the wall. Soon enough the image was thought to be that of Jesus Christ and people came from all over to see it and prey next to it. Some claimed to have been cured of illness because of it. This went on for many years making the small town very popular. Then one day there was another big storm when the dust settled clear as it could be on the wall was a painted advert for cigarettes with a depiction of a long hair, beard cowboy and his ten gallon hat..

I would respond with just a couple of points.

Your friend may be over-zealous and may have gone OTT with his dietary changes and weight loss. Not one single person on here knows how accurate that assessment is without actually seeing him and discussing his regime with him. Assuming he is a capable adult, he has made a lifestyle choice which may or may not serve him well over the longer term. Every single one of us does that every day - including you.

Many people comment that when they lose weight in particular, the hear unpalatable feedback from their friends and sometimes relations. Sometimes that is well meaning and bourne out of the changes the onlookers see, and are unfamiliar with. Some of us, once we pass spring chicken stage, find it takes a little longer than immediately for our skin and outer appearance to catch up with the improvements in our inner well-being, because, just as an example, our skins don't shrink quite so readily or rapidly. And thirdly, some people's friends would love to be achieving what they are and are jealous. The massive majority are feeding back supportively fearing our wellbeing, nit not always everyone.

To be clear, I am not drawing lines between your post and any aspect of that comment.

Over time, you will come to understand which of you or your friend was closer to reality with your feelings and his actions. I really do hope your friend remains well; not because I desperately want you to be wring, but because I would like him to be healthier and enjoying the benefit of the changes he seems to have made. Change isn't easy.

From my own perspective I have reduced my carb intake and when I, myself, got very slim I increased my fat intake a bit in order to stabilise my weight and all other health markers.

Incidentally, the swing from low fat to fuller fats has been a slow burn process, with many more health care professionals understanding that the timeline for increasing diabetes and obesity is closely connected to the time-frame for recommending low fat products. Sadly, though, there has been a great deal of resistance of HCPs "coming out" for full fat before the official guidance begins to support it. In some ways that is understandable; such is the litigious society we live in.

These days I rarely get the "you look a bit drawn" feedback because people are more used to seeing me thinner. Where I am now, I spend around half of the year (winter), with summers in UK. I had actually had a very difficult lead up to returning here last month (a bit later than usual) and wasn't looking forward to being told I looked pale and drawn. In my opinion I did. I'd had some surgery and no sign of sunshine for months on end, as opposed to warmer, sunnier climes here and everyone else glowing. But, the reality couldn't have been more different. I had further refreshed my wardrobe so that I am no longer wearing anything too big, or very roomy any more. I am wearing well fitting underwear, clothing and swimwear and enjoying it. Actually, I was told I looked fitter than the butcher's dog.

So, I think your assessment of your friend's position is a very complex one, which time will tell upon. In the meantime, I hope you too remain well.
 

Bobby59

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33
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I'm not looking for any hidden meaning, I just find it odd that you have come up with many reasons against LCHF, then say "I am looking to use the HFLC diet at some stage". I doubt LCHF will ever be "fully endorsed", so you won't have to worry about that. If your doctor said to you that "the jury is still out and I should just stick to a balanced diet for now", that sounds a lot like he is saying not to use LCHF. I'm sorry if I misunderstood. Perhaps you you should ask him for clarification.

You say you are not seeking hidden meaning. Then completely twist my comments to some other meaning that backs your wild supposition up. I have not "come up with many reasons against LCHF," I am how ever suggestion that if this is the answer to a situation of millions of people let's please invest in more research to first prove it and then improve on it. If I told you drinking your own urine would cure you and I know of hundreds of people who have do it and are now cured would you do it. Wait silly question I suspect you would.

What do you mean by your friend is "taking things a bit to far in his HFLC diet"? Has your friend's health been damaged by LCHF?

In a nut shell yes I feel he has taken it to far. I seem to be saying this to many different people on the same thread over and over again. I have also said that many who do not fully understand how to properly use the diet could harm them selves.

QUOTE="NoCrbs4Me, post: 1103918, member: 113206"]LCHF certainly could be a fad diet, although there is already plenty of research on it and it has been around for a few millennia. Does your doctor endorse the new Eatwell Guide? The Eatwell Guide is what the government recommends everyone follow, including diabetics. Is that what you'll be following? i.e. is that what you consider to be a "balanced diet"? [/QUOTE]

I did not ask him all he said was stick to a balanced diet for the time being and control the portion size. He did not endorse any other diet.In our meals we have smaller portions there are a lot less carbs more veg more fish & meats, we cut out breads all of them, no surgery drinks and sadly a lot less beer and wine no tinned or processed foods allowed. In general managing our intake as best we can using our best judgment and what we have learnt from what we see as useful information from books and the internet. So far I have lost just about a stone and my wife 10 ponds in 5 weeks of doing this.My blood sugars are dropping, but i am not very good at remembering to do them at the moment. I am the only one who is type two. My wife displays the symptoms of type two but has not been fully diagnosed. I regularly cycle about 80 - 100 miles spread over 2 or 3 rides a week and have done this since being diagnose in August 2014 as I am off work at the moment because of another illness. The very strange thing is for the last year regularly exercising and eating fairy normally the Insulin peeks had vanished and I did not lose or gain any weight. Since deliberately lowering my carbs the insulin peeks have returned and I some times doze off after a meal.

QUOTE="NoCrbs4Me, post: 1103918, member: 113206"]Anyway, LCHF can be difficult for people to accept since it goes against decades of the government telling us to minimize fat intake and eat lots of starchy food. I urge you to keep an open mind as LCHF has resulted in quite a large number of us on this forum achieving normal blood sugar levels without any medication, going from obese or overweight to normal weight, improving there lipid profile, lowering their blood pressure, etc.[/QUOTE]

I found this line of your comment very interesting. "going from obese or overweight to normal weight" How can you know what your "normal " weight is unless you know some thing no one in the world knows. Can I ask who told you what your normal weight should be? Could it be you found this out from the same guide lines given to you by the same people who told you for many years eating fat was bad for you? Given the sudden turn around in research where eating fat is concerned how can you be so confident in talking their word for your so called "normal weight" to be unquestionably correct? In Fact how can you take their word on any thing any more? Who knows may be this time next year the researchers may tell us all eat more getting fat it is good for you. You are told what your normal blood sugar levels should be by these same people and you trust this information with out question. Can I ask do you trust this information because it has been found out through lots of research? You seem to openly distrust them on one level and embrace their every word with complete trust on another level.

All I said was, I was told by my doctor to hold off fully committing to any diets until there was more solid information available, how you ever read so much into that baffles me. Phew a long one that I hope you now have all the information you require.
 

Bobby59

Active Member
Messages
33
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Tablets (oral)
Dislikes
Cabbage and most veg
I would respond with just a couple of points.

Your friend may be over-zealous and may have gone OTT with his dietary changes and weight loss. Not one single person on here knows how accurate that assessment is without actually seeing him and discussing his regime with him. Assuming he is a capable adult, he has made a lifestyle choice which may or may not serve him well over the longer term. Every single one of us does that every day - including you.

Many people comment that when they lose weight in particular, the hear unpalatable feedback from their friends and sometimes relations. Sometimes that is well meaning and bourne out of the changes the onlookers see, and are unfamiliar with. Some of us, once we pass spring chicken stage, find it takes a little longer than immediately for our skin and outer appearance to catch up with the improvements in our inner well-being, because, just as an example, our skins don't shrink quite so readily or rapidly. And thirdly, some people's friends would love to be achieving what they are and are jealous. The massive majority are feeding back supportively fearing our wellbeing, nit not always everyone.

To be clear, I am not drawing lines between your post and any aspect of that comment.

Over time, you will come to understand which of you or your friend was closer to reality with your feelings and his actions. I really do hope your friend remains well; not because I desperately want you to be wring, but because I would like him to be healthier and enjoying the benefit of the changes he seems to have made. Change isn't easy.

From my own perspective I have reduced my carb intake and when I, myself, got very slim I increased my fat intake a bit in order to stabilise my weight and all other health markers.

Incidentally, the swing from low fat to fuller fats has been a slow burn process, with many more health care professionals understanding that the timeline for increasing diabetes and obesity is closely connected to the time-frame for recommending low fat products. Sadly, though, there has been a great deal of resistance of HCPs "coming out" for full fat before the official guidance begins to support it. In some ways that is understandable; such is the litigious society we live in.

These days I rarely get the "you look a bit drawn" feedback because people are more used to seeing me thinner. Where I am now, I spend around half of the year (winter), with summers in UK. I had actually had a very difficult lead up to returning here last month (a bit later than usual) and wasn't looking forward to being told I looked pale and drawn. In my opinion I did. I'd had some surgery and no sign of sunshine for months on end, as opposed to warmer, sunnier climes here and everyone else glowing. But, the reality couldn't have been more different. I had further refreshed my wardrobe so that I am no longer wearing anything too big, or very roomy any more. I am wearing well fitting underwear, clothing and swimwear and enjoying it. Actually, I was told I looked fitter than the butcher's dog.

So, I think your assessment of your friend's position is a very complex one, which time will tell upon. In the meantime, I hope you too remain well.

Sorry I should of been more forthcoming with this. My friend of some 6 weeks. We met as a result of my over hearing his conversation about HFLC diet at a bike rest. For much of the time he was my only source of information about HFLC.

So you think I am jealous oh dear oh dear oh dear.
 

AndBreathe

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Sorry I should of been more forthcoming with this. My friend of some 6 weeks. We met as a result of my over hearing his conversation about HFLC diet at a bike rest. For much of the time he was my only source of information about HFLC.

So you think I am jealous oh dear oh dear oh dear.

Only you could make that judgement. I did not.
 

NoCrbs4Me

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@Bobby59 Other than from your friend, have you tried to find out info on LCHF? Perhaps that is why you have doubts about LCHF? Why do you think he is taking LCHF too far?

I'm not sure what you're going on about regarding normal weight. I never claimed to reject all official government health guidelines. Are those the only 2 choices? Reject all health guidelines or follow all of the unquestioningly?

You sure don't seem to be following the Eatwell guide, so I would guess that you also don't follow the official government health guidelines unquestioningly. Can I ask why you have rejected the government's advice to eat a diet of mostly carbs? From your description of what you eat, you are closer to LCHF than Eatwell.
 

Bobby59

Active Member
Messages
33
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Tablets (oral)
Dislikes
Cabbage and most veg
@Bobby59 Other than from your friend, have you tried to find out info on LCHF? Perhaps that is why you have doubts about LCHF? Why do you think he is taking LCHF too far?

I'm not sure what you're going on about regarding normal weight. I never claimed to reject all official government health guidelines. Are those the only 2 choices? Reject all health guidelines or follow all of the unquestioningly?

You sure don't seem to be following the Eatwell guide, so I would guess that you also don't follow the official government health guidelines unquestioningly. Can I ask why you have rejected the government's advice to eat a diet of mostly carbs? From your description of what you eat, you are closer to LCHF than Eatwell.

Could it be that I have done some internet research of my own after seeing the effect the HFLC diet has had on my newly found friend. Every one in the UK gets a booklet given to them when they become diagnose with Type Two inside the booklet which I am looking at right now there are a few meal ideas. These meal ideas I can only think of being for very small portions as they include a fair few carbs loaded meals. I have to ask are you deliberately trying to wind me up? I question the HFLC diet as it seems fairly clear to me that in untrained hands it can do harm. The option of asking an untrained internet guru for answers again seems to me to verg on absolute craziness. The HFLC diet needs more research and when used be over seen by an expert not John123 from Essex who is clearly a fanatic and may well be unknowingly harming him self with the diet.

And hay presto I get an e mail with exactly that. Sadly all this has left me with a bit of a head ache so I will read it tomorrow thank you Louise. God Bless you for that.
 
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NoCrbs4Me

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Could it be that I have done some internet research of my own after seeing the effect the HFLC diet has had on my newly found friend. I have to ask are you deliberately trying to wind me up?
I'm hardly trying to wind you up. You haven't said what effect of LCHF has been on your friend. You don't seem interested in discussing LCHF in a meaningful way, so I'll leave this thread as well.