Prof Roy Taylor's work on reversing type 2 diabetes

[ringi]

I dont understand the idea that you can eat whatever amount you want on LCHF and still lose weight.

A lot of people find that when they eat more fat and a lot fewer carbs, they choose to eat less without having to try to. Our bodies also find it easier to put weight on from a 1000 cals of carbs, then from 1000 cals of fat.

 

[Buttons11]

You aren't the only one that gains weight on LCHF - it happens to me, too. I can be in ketosis (tested with Ketostix) yet put on pounds. It seems the only way I can lose weight is by restricting (and counting) calories. .

A friend of mine had been basically following the Atkins diet on and off for years. She continually put weight on, and many people (myself included) tried to dissuade her from following this high fat diet.
About 3 years ago she was diagnosed with type 2, her DN tried telling her not to eat a high fat diet but she went back on the Atkins and was pleased to tell me that her Hba1c went straight back to the normal range. Now I have been diagnosed I realised how she did it, BUT she continues to consume vast quantities of calories, seeming to assume if she is in ketosis, she can eat whatever she likes. She will frequently eat a 6 or 8 egg omelette for breakfast.
A little over 5' tall, last time she admitted it to me, she said she weighed 16st, and reckon she's more than that now. I've given up trying to help.

 

[ringi]

At least fasting is easy when in ketosis, I often skip breakfast and lunch, sometimes combined with a 20 miles walk if I have not lost any weight in the preceading few weeks.

 

[ickihun]

I'm still losing on low carb, low fat with occasional fatty treat.
When I say low carb, I mean less than 150gs. It's still good for occasional breadcrumbered fish with kids.
Metformin taken long term acts like my wonder diet. I only lose on metformin after months of taking it. Once it starts it's heaven. Averaging 1kg per week loss.
So maybe my diet is irrespective of metformin working better with less carb spikes to fight.
I've noticed I only lose if my bgs have been excellent for most of that week.
So taking just under 100units of insulin per day doesn't give me added weight either. Supplement r-ala helped with insulin finding it's path quicker but no weight loss on it by less insulin.
My loss is down to long term metformin and the correct amount of insulin for me, at present.
Ps. Consultant doesn't expect me to become insulin free after bariatric surgery. I do wonder how much more less I'll need thou?
He advised me to reduce insulin on liver shrinking diet but he told me yogurt and milk diet but dietician said should be veg based for diabetics, not milk and yogurt for none diabetics. Veg etc it will be but god knows how much. Only low low carb puts my liver right but palpitations to boot. We'll see.

 

[DavidGrahamJones]

I dont understand the idea that you can eat whatever amount you want on LCHF and still lose weight.

Very definitely, 100%, and no doubt about it, does that apply to everyone. If anyone can eat whatever amount they like on a LCHF then they are very fortunate, I know that I can't and I know that I'm not alone.

It's like a lot of things to do with diabetes, weight etc there is no such thing as "one size fits all", it's a myth.

I should add that my carb intake is about 40 gms a day and that's calculated by my "Weight by Date" software. I weigh everything I eat and input everything into the "weight by Date" program on my desktop.

 

[Syd]

It has been a while since I looked in on this forum but my forthcoming annual check (only 18 months since my last one) up by the Diabetes nurse prompted me to have a look, and that look took me to Dr Taylor's Youtube video which really did not add much to what he has written over the past few years.

As with most subjects on this forum, the topic inevitably comes back to LCHF although I don't think in any shape or form this was mentioned by Dr Taylor in the video. I also stand to be corrected, but I don't think his research concludes that LCHF trumps any other form of diet. Indeed in the video, Dr Taylor enjoins us to eat 3/4 lb (340g) of potatoes instead of 1 lb(453g), hardly LC but may be HF depending on what one puts on the spuds.

He does recommend that having lost weight that one should eat in moderation so as to maintain that loss, but does not specify from which of the macronutrients one should derive the majority of one's calorie intake. He makes the point that whatever the body is fed, it will deal with it.

Much of Dr Taylor's research accords with common sense. Lose weight, and your blood glucose will normalise, keep the weight off, and the hba1c will remain lower. Where I take issue with him is the need to go on the crash diet as the first port of call (if that indeed is what he is suggesting). I would have thought that the first thing to do after a diabetes diagnosis is to reduce your calorie intake to normal or slightly below normal levels, so if you require 3,000 calories a day, reduce to 2,500 and you will lose weight and probably have a better chance of keeping that weight off.

 

[ringi]

Dr Taylor says in the question sectinon at the end of one of his talks, that it seems to make no real difference how fast the fat is lost, and that people who are not uisng very low colorie, seem to get on better with low carb diets, then "moderate" low fat diets. I think the issue is that a lot of the diabetic drugs along with our own insulin production makes it very hard for us to lose weight while our BG is high.

Very Low Colorie solves this problem by getting BG towards normal levels within a week of starting it, low carb solves this probelm by giving the body little to make glocose from, intermittant fasting works by haveing times of lower BG.

Once someone is no longer diabatic, high BG are not an issue, hence to keep the weight off it mostly comes down to how much someone eats and what exercise they do. Low carb then has no magic apart from people seem to find it easyer to count carbs then colories, and tend to stick it ot better. (However I tend to think a few 23hr fasts a month will be the best option for me.)

The real magic of low carb is that I could see the result on my BG each time I had a carb free meal, this gives hope and hence motivation. Most people have tried to lose weight on "moderate" low fat diets in the past and have failed many times (otherwise they would not have Type2), so telling someone to do the same thing again is pointless as they know it will fail.

The magtic of Very Low Colorie is that is gives very quick results and by the end of the 1st week the improvment is clear, and that motivates people.

Remember that Dr Taylor resaerch is all about proving the process (twin cycle) that couses Type2, he is only reversing cases of Type2 so it can monitor what is going one, and hence work backwards to see what triggers Type2 in the first place. He does not clam to have studies the best way to reverse Type2, but has proved 100% that it can be done.

 

[Chook]

Interesting.... I found out yesterday that just eating 800 cals / day isn't good enough for my BG - my FBG was raised this morning (Monday was 4.9, today was 7.8) - so it looks like I need to keep the carbs down to very low too.

 

[ringi]

I expect your BG will come back down again if you keep up the 800 cals/day for a few days. 7.8 is not that high, so I would not be worried about it provided it comes down within a week of 800 cals/day.

(On 800 cals/day the liver fat is burned off very quickly, once this fat has done our body can cope with a few more carbs.)

 

[bulkbiker]

you will lose weight and probably have a better chance of keeping that weight off.

Except that if you ask most people who have followed a calorie restricted diet in the past they will tell you that doesn't work. Metabolisms often slow when caloric reduction is followed so you have to eat less and less to maintain weight which usually leads to weight gain and the dreaded yo-yo..

 

[Tannith]

Except that if you ask most people who have followed a calorie restricted diet in the past they will tell you that doesn't work. Metabolisms often slow when caloric reduction is followed so you have to eat less and less to maintain weight which usually leads to weight gain and the dreaded yo-yo..

Isn't that exactly what Prof Taylor's new, third study is about to test? We shall get the results very soon. The second study, longer than the first, indicated that people do in fact keep the weight off.this latest one will show if they can keep it off for four years - and "leaks" suggest they can.

 

[ringi]

His third study mostly looks at if it works when done by nurses and normal GPs, rather than expert researchers. E.g can the NHS get normal (not us highly motivated and self-educated people) to reverse their diabetes on a large scale. The first set of results will be out at the end of this year, then it will be many years of check ups.

I am hoping that some of the people in the "control group" went off script and also get good results.......

Remember that the VERY low-calorie diet he uses is closer to fasting than to a normal "NHS approved" calorie restricted diet.

 

[Tannith]

His third study mostly looks at if it works when done by nurses and normal GPs, rather than expert researchers. E.g can the NHS get normal (not us highly motivated and self-educated people) to reverse their diabetes on a large scale. The first set of results will be out at the end of this year, then it will be many years of check ups.

I am hoping that some of the people in the "control group" went off script and also get good results.......

Remember that the VERY low-calorie diet he uses is closer to fasting than to a normal "NHS approved" calorie restricted diet.

Also I think to see if people could avoid the need for bariatric surgery by simply eating to the level they would be restricted to after surgery, without actually going under the knife. I believe they also have to do at least a fortnight of a shakes diet of some sort prior to surgery to get their livers small enough for the operation to be safe. It would save the NHS loads if people could eat the amount to fill an egg sized stomach without actually reducing it at all. Also save all the risks and side effects of the ops for the patients.

 

[russelleaton]

I've been reading up about Roy Taylor's work on the mechanisms that cause diabetes and how it can be reversed by diet (eg Newcastle diet). I stumbled across a video of an interview with him where I think he said the results of the big study that is ongoing are to be published 'in a few months time'. Anyway I can't find the video again to check when it was actually recorded.

Does anyone know when the results of this study are due and if there are any interim findings available yet ? I believe there have been 300 patients on the Newcastle diet with at least a year follow up. I'm very interested to see the conclusions of this work.

Any kind of very low carb diet accelerates insulin resistance and T2D.

 

[marathonmona]

Any kind of very low carb diet accelerates insulin resistance and T2D. ".

.

*facepalm*

 

[ickihun]

Also I think to see if people could avoid the need for bariatric surgery by simply eating to the level they would be restricted to after surgery, without actually going under the knife. I believe they also have to do at least a fortnight of a shakes diet of some sort prior to surgery to get their livers small enough for the operation to be safe. It would save the NHS loads if people could eat the amount to fill an egg sized stomach without actually reducing it at all. Also save all the risks and side effects of the ops for the patients.

Nope. No milkshakes to shrink liver. Real food. For diabetics. None diabetics have milk and yogurt.
I'm assuming the ND all about reversing diabetes not preventing diabetes. Or am I wrong?

 

[ickihun]

Any kind of very low carb diet accelerates insulin resistance and T2D. ".

That's strange since I've always had a third my meals as carbs. Snacks too. Suffered IR before pubity (pcos sufferer) and only once low carb did I get a sniff off low insulin need. I'm still highly insulin resistant but less so depending on carb content of my diet. I only don't do vlc due to palpitations and interference to my underactive thyroid.
Your book needs a revision if that's what your first addition is missing!

 

[zand]

Any kind of very low carb diet accelerates insulin resistance and T2D. ".

Like @ickihun I don't agree that this happened in my case. We must both be exceptions to the rule then.

 

[DavidGrahamJones]

Any kind of very low carb diet accelerates insulin resistance and T2D.

I'd love to see the empirical evidence. My GP told me that my Insulin Resistance had got worse while on a low carb diet, until I removed protein from my diet and BG got a lot better. I've only had my Insulin Resistance measured once, shame I didn't have it measured before the low carb, to provide some anecdotal evidence.

 

[Tannith]

It could be coincidence. I understand T2 gets very gradually worse over the years however you treat it low carb or metformin. And that only reversing it with ND or bariatric surgery will prevent it getting worse in the long term.