Canadian Diebetes. can you believe this

[Tom Green]

Well, i think you need to re-watch the video, for a start. You have misquoted Fung in the post i have quoted, and seem to be confused about at least some of his statements.

You also seem to be confused between the cause of T 1 and T2 diabetes.

I realise that you like having these opinions because they support your world view, but you would be more convincing if you used fact, not fiction to argue your case.

Which Of my points don't you agree with?

 

[Tom Green]

Fung states clearly that insulin causes diabetes in T2. In fact he states that we are using insulin, the cause of T2 to control T2 which he states is the cause of T2.

 

[NoCrbs4Me]

Fung states clearly that insulin causes diabetes in T2. In fact he states that we are using insulin, the cause of T2 to control T2 which he states is the cause of T2.

What he says is that too much naturally secreted insulin from the pancreas (from too much carbs) causes insulin resistance (i.e. type 2 diabetes). So long before a type 2 diabetic's blood glucose gets to diabetic levels, his insulin levels were abnormally high. Eventually the pancreas can't produce enough insulin to overcome the insulin resistance and the blood glucose levels rise. There is evidence that hyperinsulinemia can cause cancer.

 

[Tom Green]

Yes that is what he says. But I've been told that my immune system attacks the cells that produce insulin rendering them incappable Of handling glucose. Carbs convert to sugar /glucose. If Fungs hypotheses were correct, all fat people would develop T2. I'm sure we all know obese people who don't develop diabetes who gorge themselves on unhealthy foods. I certainly do.
One if my friends is very obese, eats like a pig and has no diabetes. The explanation isn't as simple as Fung implies.

 

[NoCrbs4Me]

Yes that is what he says. But I've been told that my immune system attacks the cells that produce insulin rendering them incappable Of handling glucose. Carbs convert to sugar /glucose. If Fungs hypotheses were correct, all fat people would develop T2. I'm sure we all know obese people who don't develop diabetes who gorge themselves on unhealthy foods. I certainly do.
One if my friends is very obese, eats like a pig and has no diabetes. The explanation isn't as simple as Fung implies.

For type 1 diabetes, the immune system attacks and destroys the beta cells and you basically don't produce any insulin, although there can be a honeymoon period where there is still some beta cell function. This is not caused by eating much carbs.

For type 2 diabetes, the beta cells work fine, but due to insulin resistance must pump out extra insulin to get blood glucose at the right levels. Eventually, however, the insulin resistance becomes too much for the amount of insulin the pancreas can pump out and blood glucose levels rise. And after many years of maximum pumpage, beta cells start to die. As I said before, for years before blood glucose levels reach diabetic levels, the pancreas is pumping out excessive amounts of insulin. The majority of obese people likely have insulin resistance, just not elevated blood glucose. I would also suspect that your obese friend does not have non-diabetic blood glucose levels. And for all you know maybe he does have diabetes. You should ask him what his fasting blood glucose and his HbA1c are. Maybe he hasn't even been tested for diabetes.

Also, I don't think Fung has said that being fat causes type 2 diabetes. Being overweight is just a symptom of insulin resistance. But, not all people are overweight due to insulin resistance.

 

[Tom Green]

No he didn't say being fat causes diabetes but being fat does cause insulin production to rise which means they would have high level of insulin.
My fat friend doesn't have duabetes since he gets checked regularly .

 

[Tarabas]

My question was about the statement "insulin is toxic to the cells". I found interesting theses, but no medical explanation. Toxic means "doing something biological harm to it". What is the damage which insulin makes to the cells? Without this, it is a thesis. Probably worth to make research on it, but not enough to say "it is toxic"

 

[Tom Green]

http://www.diabetes.co.uk/difference-between-type1-and-type2-diabetes.html

 

[AloeSvea]

My question was about the statement "insulin is toxic to the cells". I found interesting theses, but no medical explanation. Toxic means "doing something biological harm to it". What is the damage which insulin makes to the cells? Without this, it is a thesis. Probably worth to make research on it, but not enough to say "it is toxic"

Fair enough. My science-trained Mr Svea would agree with you. He didn't like the use of the term toxicity for it either. So, I researched further online and found a paper which talks about insulin toxicity in neural/ brain stem cells. As we probably all know there is a lot of talk and scientific activity around the connection between impaired BG (and insulin resistance) regulation and brain cell problems and alzheimers/Type 3 diabetes.

http://www.nature.com/cddis/journal/v4/n8/full/cddis2013295a.html

"Insulin-mediated cell death manifested not only in all human NSCs tested, regardless of origin, but also in differentiated human neurons. The underlying cell death mechanism at high insulin concentrations was similar to insulin resistance, where cells became less responsive to insulin, resulting in a reduction in the activation of the PI3K/Akt pathway critical to cell survival signaling.

Keywords:
human neural stem cells; insulin; insulin resistance; cell apoptosis; PI3K/Akt intracellular signal"

I liked this paper for dealing with the full-on complexity of beta cell failure:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3900074/

But no - not a word of insulin toxicity.

Dr Fung does introduce the concept of insulin toxicity, basically. It is his theory, which he says is based on logic. I like his logic! It seemed pretty convincing to me. Watch and see?

I attach Fung's slide on references used in that lecture. (I'm a very thorough reader and viewer! And as well as great fat storage in my cells, alas, I also have good storage in my computer. I screen shot as I watched.)

 

[AloeSvea]

And here is the diagram of the apparent/supposed/proposed effect of hyperinsulinemia on the cell:

This is also about the increased cardiovascular risk attached to T2D, and, in this model, from high levels of insulin doing damage. The idea that lowered insulin levels is associated with lower cardiovascular risk I thought was pretty accepted in the scientific community? Or have I just been watching quite a bit of the wonderful Dr Fung lately?

 

[NoCrbs4Me]

No he didn't say being fat causes diabetes but being fat does cause insulin production to rise which means they would have high level of insulin.
My fat friend doesn't have duabetes since he gets checked regularly .

Insulin resistance causes elevated insulin. You can have elevated insulin and normal blood glucose. You can have insulin resistance without being overweight.

 

[AloeSvea]

Yes that is what he says. But I've been told that my immune system attacks the cells that produce insulin rendering them incappable Of handling glucose. Carbs convert to sugar /glucose. If Fungs hypotheses were correct, all fat people would develop T2. I'm sure we all know obese people who don't develop diabetes who gorge themselves on unhealthy foods. I certainly do.
One if my friends is very obese, eats like a pig and has no diabetes. The explanation isn't as simple as Fung implies.

You know there are different expressions of T2D. You have an element of an autoimmune reaction in yours? (Which can be seen in blood lipids by the level of ... oh s*** - I can't remember - but I do remember that you can check to see how your immune system is working via your doctor and lab tests.) People have different beta cell issues, different insulin resistance issues, different food sensitivities and different responses to different treatments because of all these factors (and more!) Oh yes - and different development of complications from diabetes.

Over time I learnt to ask for particular tests to check out the various aspects of the dysfunction in my own body. I now know for instance, due to c-peptide levels (which is a way to check your insulin production levels) that I still produce a lot of insulin. My poor old pancreas is still churning it out to keep up with my poor old liver still churning out the self-made glucose! Which may be why I am particularly interested in Fung's theory of T2D.

 

[Living-by-the-beach]

http://www.diabetes.ca/diabetes-and-you/healthy-living-resources/diet-nutrition/basic-meal-planning

That looks like a disaster diet. I think the Canadians are in cahoots with Big Pharma from that diet! LOL
The typical days eating looks disastrous

Specifically

• Choose starchy foods such as whole grain breads and cereals, rice, noodles, or potatoes at every meal. Starchy foods are broken down into glucose, which your body needs for energy.

- See more at: http://www.diabetes.ca/diabetes-and...tion/basic-meal-planning#sthash.1H3ybu3d.dpuf

 

[Tom Green]

You know there are different expressions of T2D. You have an element of an autoimmune reaction in yours? (Which can be seen in blood lipids by the level of ... oh s*** - I can't remember - but I do remember that you can check to see how your immune system is working via your doctor and lab tests.) People have different beta cell issues, different insulin resistance issues, different food sensitivities and different responses to different treatments because of all these factors (and more!) Oh yes - and different development of complications from diabetes.

Over time I learnt to ask for particular tests to check out the various aspects of the dysfunction in my own body. I now know for instance, due to c-peptide levels (which is a way to check your insulin production levels) that I still produce a lot of insulin. My poor old pancreas is still churning it out to keep up with my poor old liver still churning out the self-made glucose! Which may be why I am particularly interested in Fung's theory of T2D.

I get comprehesive blood tests every 3-4 months. Earlier today my GP went over my results and he was very happy with them. Kidneys are working great, Tryglicerides are perfect and A1c was 6.1. Fasting was 6.7. My cardio risk was less than 1. I'm really happy with my sugar control and I eat very well .
I'm 6'1", 102 kilos with a large bone frame. I weight trained for years but have backed off the last few years.

 

[AloeSvea]

I get comprehesive blood tests every 3-4 months. Earlier today my GP went over my results and he was very happy with them. Kidneys are working great, Tryglicerides are perfect and A1c was 6.1. Fasting was 6.7. My cardio risk was less than 1. I'm really happy with my sugar control and I eat very well .
I'm 6'1", 102 kilos with a large bone frame. I weight trained for years but have backed off the last few years.

Yes, you and I have a very similar blood lipids/HBA1c profile! I feel very privileged to have been able to read your thoughts, and about your T2D, as we have such different forms of treatment, with the same-ish result.

You watched the Fung lecture though, didn't you? You're not worried by the studies and stats he presents about, how to express it? the 'health paradox' for T2 diabetics using added insulin to lower blood glucose? In terms of increased colorectal cancer and cardiovascular risk for diabetic insulin users? (They're Canadian studies/stats to boot!). ie T2D is not a disease of blood sugar, but of blood sugar and insulin/hormone dysregulation. You're rather heavily banking on hyperinsulinemia NOT being part of the T2D equation? Being 70-something now is part of not being so concerned with this? (As I am still only early 50s, and yet to see a grandchild yet, this is enormously meaningful to me! Not to mention other exciting life goals.) Saying this, I have read the studies published in the DCUK forum that suggests T2diabetics who get treated with insulin on diagnosis do much better long term. There must be something in that indeed.

And, whatever works for each of us! In our lives. Keeps our feet attached to our legs, kidneys functioning, and heart beating, as you say. As we are all saying. It's all good?

 

[Tom Green]

I've been very lucky to catch the blockages before I had a catastrophe. A total shocker! The last time I had so much as a headache was when I was 25 and a student in London UK. I've never had an upset stomach since I was about 23 and drank too much wine at a grape and wine festival.
I really can't complain, my life has been amazing. Travelled all over the world .I have 4 grandkids soon to be 5.All my kids are very successful. At 71 my views are different than a younger person but I always had a very positive view on life. I just don't let anything bother me.

 

[mekalu2k4]

I've been very lucky to catch the blockages before I had a catastrophe.

Yes, some guys are lucky. But some are not. My neighbour who is fitness trainer is very healthy; never had any major health issues even at 72. One day he had to call ambulance apparently experienced a stroke. But he looked fine, I talked to him; he in fact walked into the ambulance. After 30 min, docs were doing ECG on him; and he got the second stroke - that is it; he is gone.

At 71 my views are different than a younger person but I always had a very positive view on life.

Agreed. Views change as we age.

I just don't let anything bother me.

Yes, this is important. Just be yourself, there is nothing to lose at this stage. Good luck.

 

[Brunneria]

Is it really the same chance as a non-diabetic?

I hope so but I haven't seen any evidence to that effect.

Hi,

Sorry have taken so long to get back to you.
It was rather a sweeping statement, wasn't it?
I think I could have phrased it a bit better - something along these lines:

risks from hyperglycaemia are the same as a non-diabetic
with the addition that
risks from hyperinsulinaemia are as yet not fully researched (see Kraft's findings from his 1000s of insulin assays) BUT will be lower than if I was eating a carby diet and adding in insulin.

If you have followed Kraft's work you will see that he established a clear link between heart disease and hyperinsulinaemia long (sometimes years and decades) before the patient was identified as diabetic.

Plus, there are other factors, including general nutrition and things like Vit D deficiency. So risks are never one-trick-ponies.