What is the HF in LCHF?

[Oldvatr]

We had a 'discussion' in one of the other threads here that showed that there seems to be a gap in our understanding of what the Protein and Fat parts of the LCHF diet do. I certainly completed my LCHF training course, and came away with a large question mark about it, so had to do a load more research. i want to use this thread to discuss the role of protein and fat specifically and i think the LC part is well understood and is discussed already in the Low Carb threads.

I have put this as a discussion because i sincerely think it needs discussion, and also because there were those that felt that this topic should not be discussed in the Low Carb Forum. There were also those that felt it should not be discussed at all.

Has anyone got any good links to reports that describe how we metabolise protein and fat, and also shows how they differ in what they do?

I would also like to look at the safety side of this topic, since there are legitimate concerns in respect of heavy use of these, and take into account recent research findings that seem to turn established thinking upside down

Please join in.

 

[tim2000s]

Has anyone got any good links to reports that describe how we metabolise protein and fat, and also shows how they differ in what they do?

Perhaps you could expand on what you mean by this? Are you talking about the Krebs cycle or the processes that prepare the various foodstuffs for the Krebs cycle?

 

[Oldvatr]

Perhaps you could expand on what you mean by this? Are you talking about the Krebs cycle or the processes that prepare the various foodstuffs for the Krebs cycle?

Hi Tim, obviously Krebs Cycle (citric cycle) is relevant, since it covers the storage and useage of glucose in the body, but I think it only applies to Catbs and Protein, but not Fat. The Krebs cycle shows that once metabolised into glucogen in the blood, then protein is the same as carbs as far as insulin resistance and bgl levels go, but fat has a different path that does not seem to require insulin to operate. Fat does need the body to be in ketogenic (fat burning) mode either by exercise or by low glucose levels. At least that is how i understand it.

The pre Krebs part is to do with GI and how well and how quickly we metabolise these three energy sources. This is relevant to how best to control our bgl in terms of choice of food and timing od medication, and for those on insulin, the amount of and timing of bolus adjustment. This too is part of the diet debate.

Lastly, it is easy to get locked into the effect on bgl, but there are other effects we should discuss and one is what to do about weight when carbs are reduced. To replace the calories we can use either fat or protein to control weight, but these have limitations, i believe.

What about cholesterol and lipids These are all things that are very relevant and necessary. That is why i have launched this thread on its own,

Also to throw on the fire:- are we missing any vital micronutrients by going LCHF? Amino acids? iron? folic acid? etc

 

[AndBreathe]

We had a 'discussion' in one of the other threads here that showed that there seems to be a gap in our understanding of what the Protein and Fat parts of the LCHF diet do. I certainly completed my LCHF training course, and came away with a large question mark about it, so had to do a load more research. i want to use this thread to discuss the role of protein and fat specifically and i think the LC part is well understood and is discussed already in the Low Carb threads.

I have put this as a discussion because i sincerely think it needs discussion, and also because there were those that felt that this topic should not be discussed in the Low Carb Forum. There were also those that felt it should not be discussed at all.

Has anyone got any good links to reports that describe how we metabolise protein and fat, and also shows how they differ in what they do?

I would also like to look at the safety side of this topic, since there are legitimate concerns in respect of heavy use of these, and take into account recent research findings that seem to turn established thinking upside down

Please join in.

The LCHF training course you mention; where is it? Who delivered it and what were it's objectives?

 

[Oldvatr]

The LCHF training course you mention; where is it? Who delivered it and what were it's objectives?

DCUK - this site. its what got me onto this forum in the first place. Was a FB link initially, but I did see it advertised in the newsletter. Beare with me. i will search for a link and edit here if i find one.

 

[Oldvatr]

The LCHF training course you mention; where is it? Who delivered it and what were it's objectives?

Its here: http://www.diabetes.co.uk/lowcarb/
and its a freebie too.

 

[Finsky]

Also to throw on the fire:- are we missing any vital micronutrients by going LCHF? Amino acids? iron? folic acid? etc

I would not say those are issues specifically with LCHF diet...same apply what ever diet we are on and comes down individual's food choices. Lowering down carbs down doesn't necessary mean will cut out sources for any particular vitamins/micronutrients, as nature has so wonderful way of supplying them over many different 'edibles'...it is just down how varied the diet.
LCHF diet might even work out being better for many...since they are reducing carbs, which many sources are 'empty' energy and provide very little nourishment...choosing something different to provide fulfilment for one's tummy and appetite can mean much healthier and nutrient rich diet...something they might not usually choose over carbs.

 

[Oldvatr]

I would not say those are issues specifically with LCHF diet...same apply what ever diet we are on and comes down individual's food choices. Lowering down carbs down doesn't necessary mean will cut out sources for any particular vitamins/micronutrients, as nature has so wonderful way of supplying them over many different 'edibles'...it is just down how varied the diet.
LCHF diet might even work out being better for many...since they are reducing carbs, which many sources are 'empty' energy and provide very little nourishment...choosing something different to provide fulfilment for one's tummy and appetite can mean much healthier and nutrient rich diet...something they might not usually choose over carbs.

I agree they are not specific, but they are things we need to consider, and there maybe someone reading this thread who has encountered something that they can share with us for consideration. Earlier on today i researched Soybean products, and found queries about their safety. There is a debate going on as to whether these are urban myths, or if there is perhaps some valid science behind it. Again perhaps someone posts a link to relevant reports, as can happen on a forum like this. That is why i posted an open set of questions.

 

[britishpub]

I think @Tim55 and @Winnie53 have experience of supplements, not necessarily all relating to the LC diet, but which might be interesting.

I think Vitamin B12 and B6 were one's a LC could leave you low on.

 

[AndBreathe]

Its here: http://www.diabetes.co.uk/lowcarb/
and its a freebie too.

I have registered for the programme, but haven't yet taken the time to go through it. Is the programme LCHF or LC? I thought it might be the latter, but happy to stand corrected.

 

[JohnEGreen]

fat metabolism
the biochemical process by which fats are broken down, incorporated, and used by the cells of the body. Fats provide more food energy (9 kcal/g) than carbohydrates (4.1 kcal/g). Fat catabolism begins with the hydrolysis of fats(triglycerides) into glycerol and fatty acids. Glycerol is converted into a compound that can enter the citric acid cycle. Catabolism of fatty acids continues by beta-oxidation to produce acetylcoenzyme A, which also enters the citric acid cycle. The body synthesizes fats from fatty acids and glycerol or from compounds derived from excess glucose or from amino acids. The body can synthesize only saturated fatty acids; essential unsaturated fatty acids can be supplied only by diet. Fat metabolism is controlled by hormones such as insulin, growth hormone, adrenocorticotropic hormone, and glucocorticoids. The rate of fat catabolism is inversely related to the rate of carbohydrate catabolism, and in some conditions, such as diabetes mellitus, the secretion of these hormones increases to counter a decrease in carbohydrate catabolism.

The sum of the physical and chemical changes involved in the break down and synthesis of fats in the body.Dietary fats are digested to fatty acids and glycerol in the small intestine,absorbed,and reformed into triglycerides that are transported in the form of chylomicrons. Fats may be stored in adipose tissue as potential energy or may be broken down to provide immediate energy.The liver has enzymes for the beta-oxidation of fatty acids and their use in the Krebs cycle.Fats may be formed from excess dietary carbohydrate or amino acids.Synthetic reactions produce phospholipids and steroids






Mosby's Medical Dictionary, 9th edition. © 2009,

 

[Oldvatr]

I think @Tim55 and @Winnie53 have experience of supplements, not necessarily all relating to the LC diet, but which might be interesting.

I think Vitamin B12 and B6 were one's a LC could leave you low on.

Thanks. I have seen this mentioned in connection with vegan diets, and of course there are vegetarians doing LC diets too. But if our protein is animal based then this would normally supply these two vits. But I could be wrong on this.

But this is exactly the sort of thing I want to be raised here. i.e anybody lactose intolerant? or coeliac? vegan?

 

[Oldvatr]

fat metabolism
the biochemical process by which fats are broken down, incorporated, and used by the cells of the body. Fats provide more food energy (9 kcal/g) than carbohydrates (4.1 kcal/g). Fat catabolism begins with the hydrolysis of fats(triglycerides) into glycerol and fatty acids. Glycerol is converted into a compound that can enter the citric acid cycle. Catabolism of fatty acids continues by beta-oxidation to produce acetylcoenzyme A, which also enters the citric acid cycle. The body synthesizes fats from fatty acids and glycerol or from compounds derived from excess glucose or from amino acids. The body can synthesize only saturated fatty acids; essential unsaturated fatty acids can be supplied only by diet. Fat metabolism is controlled by hormones such as insulin, growth hormone, adrenocorticotropic hormone, and glucocorticoids. The rate of fat catabolism is inversely related to the rate of carbohydrate catabolism, and in some conditions, such as diabetes mellitus, the secretion of these hormones increases to counter a decrease in carbohydrate catabolism.

The sum of the physical and chemical changes involved in the break down and synthesis of fats in the body.Dietary fats are digested to fatty acids and glycerol in the small intestine,absorbed,and reformed into triglycerides that are transported in the form of chylomicrons. Fats may be stored in adipose tissue as potential energy or may be broken down to provide immediate energy.The liver has enzymes for the beta-oxidation of fatty acids and their use in the Krebs cycle.Fats may be formed from excess dietary carbohydrate or amino acids.Synthetic reactions produce phospholipids and steroids






Mosby's Medical Dictionary, 9th edition. © 2009,

Nice one. i was not aware that insulin was involved, but this would explain why some T1D's have difficulty with apparent Insulin resistance (which is normally associated with T2D). It also explains why there is a fat 'bump' some time after the normal carb bump. So fats do add to the glucose problem too. i know unused trigs get stored in the adipose tissue, which is why I wanted this discussion. Too often i have read that we can ignore the fat coz blah blah, but it seems we cannot. indeed I believe insulin dependants have to bolus for fat, but the timing is difficult to judge. Any one know what percentage is recommended for the fat bolus, and what timing people use? Adipose storage is not a good thing, so this might explain why metabolic syndrome is so difficult to shift.

Thanks for sharing this. It is clear you did some major research yourself.

 

[AndBreathe]

I think @Tim55 and @Winnie53 have experience of supplements, not necessarily all relating to the LC diet, but which might be interesting.

I think Vitamin B12 and B6 were one's a LC could leave you low on.

I've had a number of full blood panels done since reducing carbs and none has found me to be deficient in anything. As yet, I don't think there's a test for sense......... Ahem.

I think with any diet where some foods are reduced in any quantity, it makes sense to ensure where possible micronutrients are covered by other elements consumed.

I know @Brunneria has issues with lactose, and there are a number of Coeliac patients on the forum. @Avocado Sevenfold is certainly veggie, but not sure about full blown vegan.

 

[Oldvatr]

I've had a number of full blood panels done since reducing carbs and none has found me to be deficient in anything. As yet, I don't think there's a test for sense......... Ahem.

I think with any diet where some foods are reduced in any quantity, it makes sense to ensure where possible micronutrients are covered by other elements consumed.

I know @Brunneria has issues with lactose, and there are a number of Coeliac patients on the forum. @Avocado Sevenfold is certainly veggie, but not sure about full blown vegan.

Thanks for tagging them. Their input will be welcome. Sense and Sensibility? LOL

 

[Totto]

When it comes to the question of possible deficiencies due to a LC/LCHF diet you need to remember that if grains had been essential to us as a species we wouldn't exist. Same for potatoes, bananas and a lot of other stuff we have been taught is vital for our health and well-being.

 

[britishpub]

you need to remember that if grains had been essential to us as a species we wouldn't exist.

There is an outside chance that the Human Race may have evolved a little over those few thousand years.

 

[Oldvatr]

When it comes to the question of possible deficiencies due to a LC/LCHF diet you need to remember that if grains had been essential to us as a species we wouldn't exist. Same for potatoes, bananas and a lot of other stuff we have been taught is vital for our health and well-being.

I think the indigenous peoples where potatoes and bananas come from may not agree fully with this. We were hunter gatherers so ate what ws available. There may have been grasses and wild rice available, before we developed agriculture.

I have to ask - why is carb storage and burning the primary mode of metabolism? why does our body seem to prefer carbs? i suspect that it was difficult to kill wild game predictably in those days, and meat may have been rare in both senses. think paleo man may have still found carbs, else why did he bother to go to all that trouble to cultivate? of course, they could have lived on rabbits, but not for long.

 

[Totto]

There is an outside chance that the Human Race may have evolved a little over those few thousand years.

Like this, you mean?

 

[Totto]

I think the indigenous peoples where potatoes and bananas come from may not agree fully with this. We were hunter gatherers so ate what ws available. There may have been grasses and wild rice available, before we developed agriculture.

I have to ask - why is carb storage and burning the primary mode of metabolism? why does our body seem to prefer carbs? i suspect that it was difficult to kill wild game predictably in those days, and meat may have been rare in both senses. think paleo man may have still found carbs, else why did he bother to go to all that trouble to cultivate? of course, they could have lived on rabbits, but not for long.

I didn't say eating the occasional grain of wild grass would kill you. To believe we risk deficiencies by not eating grain is however rather stupid. I'm talking about the species, not about ethnic groups around the world who started to grow stuff like spuds. Had spuds been essential to us there would be neither spuds nor humans as we wouldn't have been around to start agriculture in South America.