Trying to Gain Weight on LCHF

[Oldvatr]

This is a subject that was discussed in a different thread, but off topic, so I am moving it to here.

I am a T2D on orals, and I successfully used LCHF diet to reduce my bgl levels to pre-diabetic range. I am happy that LCHF works for me in this respect. I have some concerns about my lipid panel, which at the moment is elevated, but the main concern that i have is that I am losing weight. I am near my 'ideal' weight of 68 kg, and am finding lower weight to be uncomfortable for mon derriere.

 

[Oldvatr]

This is a subject that was discussed in a different thread, but off topic, so I am moving it to here.

I am a T2D on orals, and I successfully used LCHF diet to reduce my bgl levels to pre-diabetic range. I am happy that LCHF works for me in this respect. I have some concerns about my lipid panel, which at the moment is elevated, but the main concern that i have is that I am losing weight. I am near my 'ideal' weight of 68 kg, and am finding lower weight to be uncomfortable for mon derriere.

The discussion started off in High-Cholesterol- on LCHF thread was prompted by the following information being posted
http://live.smashthefat.com/the-21-day-5000-calorie-challenge/
Now I had been led to believe that the HF part of LCHF gave me control over my weight: decrease HF to lose weight, increaase HF to provide energy for ketosis, but then any excess fat was stored as visceral fat in the adipose tissue for future use.
Now the video puts this second assumption in jeopardy since it seems that under very low carb intake, then there is no excess fat storage, and hence no weight gain.

I have gone back over many scientific papers on LCHF, and they all seem to skirt this part of the topic. They all talk about using the energy while in ketosis, and there is inference that trigs get stored in Adipocytes , but the mechanisms are not discussed anywhere that I could see.

Now if I google weight LCHF, then I get pages wrt weight loss (or complaints of no loss) but nothing about needing to gain weight. Am I the only one? None of the teach yourself LCHF sites discuss this as a possibility, and everyone seems to assume that anyone on LCHF needs to lose vast chunks of blubber. Not I.

 

[ickihun]

I don't lose weight on lchf but I eat too much protein. Protein is commonly used to gain weight.

 

[Bluetit1802]

I can only speak of my own personal experience. I was just inside the obese BMI level when I started on low carb/moderate fat. I lost a third of my body weight, reducing my BMI from 31 to 21. I was forced to increase my fats. Increasing carbs was out of the question, and I already ate a considerable amount of protein. I added some more dairy fats to my diet .... cheese and occasional cream that I hadn't eaten before, and some extra butter, plus an extra egg a day. I slowed down the weight loss but it still continued. I just kept adding a bit more fat until I stopped losing. It took a month or two of experiments. Since then I have kept this extra dietary fat and have maintained my ideal weight now for 18 or more months with no further losses (or increases.)

Of course, adding cheese and an extra egg to my diet has also added protein. So who knows.

 

[Kristin251]

A few years ago I lowered my protein intake and it turned out to be a key element in lowering my BS but I also lost weight. Kind if a double edged sword. I am now T 1 and protein has an even more profound effect on my BS. I like to keep my protein low due to the mTOR pathway that I personally believe is valid but others believe there is not enough research.

 

[Oldvatr]

I don't lose weight on lchf but I eat too much protein. Protein is commonly used to gain weight.

This has also been suggested to me, but the problems with protein is that it generally gets converted straight to glucose in the blood just like carbs, but at a slower rate. This delay is difficult for insulin users to bolus for, but for me on orals, it gives me a second bgl spike around 4 hours after the meal, and this spike is also longer lasting.

Secondly, the advice on protein in LCHF is that it be moderate, and with a max RDA of around 80g/ day.

I have had to cut down on my protein portions because the glucose was stopping me from achieving ketosis. a small mackerel fillet is all I can take nowadays.

 

[Kristin251]

This has also been suggested to me, but the problems with protein is that it generally gets converted straight to glucose in the blood just like carbs, but at a slower rate. This delay is difficult for insulin users to bolus for, but for me on orals, it gives me a second bgl spike around 4 hours after the meal, and this spike is also longer lasting.

Secondly, the advice on protein in LCHF is that it be moderate, and with a max RDA of around 80g/ day.

I have had to cut down on my protein portions because the glucose was stopping me from achieving ketosis. a small mackerel fillet is all I can take nowadays.

That was my problem too. Bs going up and staying up. With insulin now I still only eat 10 g at lunch and 15 dinner. Very little if any at BF because it's so volatile in the morning. I do get some plant proteins from avocado and a few nuts during the day. I can't do dairy. Dairy is tricky too as it raises me a lot.
Fat, unless I eat tons never had any effect in my weight and only since I started I insulin did it.
Are your meals getting smaller and smaller to keep bs in range? Before I was T1 and progressing there I was losing weight way too fast and eating tons of fat. Do you think your insulin is decreasing?

 

[Daibell]

This has also been suggested to me, but the problems with protein is that it generally gets converted straight to glucose in the blood just like carbs, but at a slower rate. This delay is difficult for insulin users to bolus for, but for me on orals, it gives me a second bgl spike around 4 hours after the meal, and this spike is also longer lasting.

Secondly, the advice on protein in LCHF is that it be moderate, and with a max RDA of around 80g/ day.

I have had to cut down on my protein portions because the glucose was stopping me from achieving ketosis. a small mackerel fillet is all I can take nowadays.

Hi. I'm not sure that much of the protein gets converted to glucose which is why insulin users normally ignore protein and fat when calculating or at least only add a bit for those? My understanding is that increasing protein and fat may be needed to balance lower carbs and avoid too much weight loss?

 

[SunnyExpat]

I eat enough carbs to keep me happily out of ketosis, and few enough, and the right ones, to keep my BG well in the normal range, and it's simple for me. Eat too much of anything for long enough, I put on weight, go calorie deficient and eventually I'll lose.

 

[Kristin251]

Hi. I'm not sure that much of the protein gets converted to glucose which is why insulin users normally ignore protein and fat when calculating or at least only add a bit for those? My understanding is that increasing protein and fat may be needed to balance lower carbs and avoid too much weight loss?

I eat very low carb and bolus mostly for protein. I need the fat to slow the protein down and match insulin. When low carbing people tend to gluconeogenisis much faster. I find bernsteins recommndations to bolus for half protein to be quite accurate.

 

[Brunneria]

I once saw a you tube video where Bernstein tried recommending increased fat for weight gain (shot glasses full of olive oil, I believe).
It failed.
So he now recommends extra protein.

Not sure if these vids have the same info, or not:

 

[Bluetit1802]

Hi. I'm not sure that much of the protein gets converted to glucose which is why insulin users normally ignore protein and fat when calculating or at least only add a bit for those? My understanding is that increasing protein and fat may be needed to balance lower carbs and avoid too much weight loss?

I'm not an insulin user, thankfully, but I am an obsessive and fastidious regular tester and I have worn 3 Libre sensors (so far). I eat a lot of protein but have never seen a BS rise due to it, no matter how long after a meal I have tested, and nor have the sensor logs and graphs. Another example of how our bodies all react differently.

 

[Kristin251]

I think the problem with adding protein for the OP is that protein DOES convert to glucose in him/ her so the OP is saying adding protein is not an option

I a might be mistaken but that is how I read it.

 

[Bluetit1802]

I think the problem with adding protein for the OP is that protein DOES convert to glucose in him/ her so the OP is saying adding protein is not an option

I a might be mistaken but that is how I read it.

Indeed. I wasn't suggesting adding proteins. I simply said in my earlier post that I added fats, and thereby a bit of protein contained in the fats I added. There are fats that don't contain protein, and this may be the only way for him to go.

 

[Oldvatr]

Indeed. I wasn't suggesting adding proteins. I simply said in my earlier post that I added fats, and thereby a bit of protein contained in the fats I added. There are fats that don't contain protein, and this may be the only way for him to go.

Yes, I concur. I am ok with babybels, most cheeses, milk, double cream, pulled pork, minced beef in smallish portions, Quorn. I have to be careful with chicken, mackerel, salmon, or herring in olive oil, but am absolutelyfine with Pilchards, brisling, sild, kippers, prawns, and pork in any form. I can get by with small portions of most of these so it is an option I can still consider.

I am concerned by the recent studies that show a link between high protein intake and kidney damage. My latest GFR was not brilliant, but hopefully it was a one off.

 

[Kristin251]

Indeed. I wasn't suggesting adding proteins. I simply said in my earlier post that I added fats, and thereby a bit of protein contained in the fats I added. There are fats that don't contain protein, and this may be the only way for him to go.

When I was T2 I don't think protein effected me nearly as much until I started progressing to T 1. Looking back I see the link but at the time I just had to keep reducing meal size as well as protein so I ate boat loads of fat and nuts to try to gain weight to no avail. For me it took insulin to gain.

It's all such a delicate balance

 

[Oldvatr]

I once saw a you tube video where Bernstein tried recommending increased fat for weight gain (shot glasses full of olive oil, I believe).
It failed.
So he now recommends extra protein.

Not sure if these vids have the same info, or not:

Now I know where my notion regarding using fat to control weight probably came from. An earlier incarnation of Dr Bernstein, no less. I am now thoroughly depressed. His only solution for me seems to be to go on insulin, both bolus and basal, and increase proteins to a large extent. Having proven to myself that I can put on weight using the insulin I still have as a T2D, then I hope I can juggle things without going down that pathway. I have shown I can both lose or increase my own weight while on LCHF, before I got fully into ketosis. Now my weight is dropping again, and I have just started taking steps to reverse it. (but may need to take bigger steps). My weight today has gone up 0.6kg, and this was while i was fasting.

I still see reports of lipid storage in adipocytes, but only as an aside. I need to find better description of this part of the endocrine system. I have not given up on my original notion, and it may be that by reducing IR by LCHF glucogen pathway restriction that I free up insulin for the lipid storage. I will report back. After all its my playpen!

 

[Oldvatr]

When I was T2 I don't think protein effected me nearly as much until I started progressing to T 1. Looking back I see the link but at the time I just had to keep reducing meal size as well as protein so I ate boat loads of fat and nuts to try to gain weight to no avail. For me it took insulin to gain.

It's all such a delicate balance

In answer to your earlier posting, and this one, I am not reducing meal sizes, but where I have a protein I know spikes me then I hold back on it. *see list in my previous posting tonight. I am happy that my results show I am still producing some of my own insulin, especially to the point of reducing my hyperglycemic meds. In fact, my bgl has some leeway in that I could let my general level rise a bit without worrying too much about it. I am not sure I actually need ketosis, but it may be my lipid panel lets me down

 

[Oldvatr]

I still see reports of lipid storage in adipocytes, but only as an aside. I need to find better description of this part of the endocrine system. I have not given up on my original notion, and it may be that by reducing IR by LCHF glucogen pathway restriction that I free up insulin for the lipid storage. I am reporting back. After all its my playpen!

At last i get to refer to the Encyclopedia Britannica
http://www.britannica.com/science/adipose-cell

It does not mention insulin at all. In fact the description I had for the Krebs cycle (glucogen transport and use/storage) shows insulin is needed to control the direction of flow of glucose , but was not involved in the storage of lipids which had its own processes using Leptin. But this info was from about 10 tears ago, so may be 'old thinking'. Still digging.......

Found this for Leptin, and it explains a lot about the effects of stress and sleep disorders, and leptin resistance (similar to IR) increases with body weight and obesity. This will take a while to digest (especially if suffering IR = Interest Resistance)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leptin

 

[Kristin251]

At last i get to refer to the Encyclopedia Britannica
http://www.britannica.com/science/adipose-cell

It does not mention insulin at all. In fact the description I had for the Krebs cycle (glucogen transport and use/storage) shows insulin is needed to control the direction of flow of glucose , but was not involved in the storage of lipids which had its own processes using Leptin. But this info was from about 10 tears ago, so may be 'old thinking'. Still digging.......

Found this for Leptin, and it explains a lot about the effects of stress and sleep disorders, and leptin resistance (similar to IR) increases with body weight and obesity. This will take a while to digest (especially if suffering IR = Interest Resistance)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leptin

The rosedale diet is based on leptin. You may find it very interesting. I sure did.
Can I ask how many grams of protein you eat in a day?
Rosedale also talks about the mTOR pathway. He advises .6-.75 g per kg of LEAN body mass. Puts me between 30-37 and that's what my bs likes too. I am no longer losing weight but status quo