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Today's The Day:)

Oh wow...that's great. I guess my fasting may have skewed it? Although my A1C should give me a broader view over the last 3 months. Thanks :)


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Your fasting was spot on.
It's a common misconception that you should return to your fasting level within two hours.
Most people will return to under 7.8 two hours after meals, not fasting level.
You had a very heavy dose of pure fast acting carbs, with no exercise, so a worst case scenario.

The same as after a meal,
http://www.diabetes.co.uk/diabetes_...?utm_source=top&utm_medium=dd&utm_campaign=dd
 
It all depends on carbs, I would peak at c.60mins after carbs and I could be on my way to an hypo at +120mins if I walked about. Then again I do have R.H.
But we all have varied responses to carbs and yours was good at +2hours. Perhaps your well on your way to a cure, Kevin?
regards
D.
 
It all depends on carbs, I would peak at c.60mins after carbs and I could be on my way to an hypo at +120mins if I walked about. Then again I do have R.H.
But we all have varied responses to carbs and yours was good at +2hours. Perhaps your well on your way to a cure, Kevin?
regards
D.

Or st least "Resolved" as my doc describes it:)


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How are your results @KevinPotts - I've been trying to follow the thread but failed miserably ... talk of stuff I don't know about - have you got your HbA1c or do you need to wait?

Sorry for being a dunce ;)
 
With the Hba1c still to come in, (which I would expect to be in the 30's, I going to stick my neck out and say the results are completely none diabetic.

A normal response to a very high carb test, so not simply controlled by a low carb diet, but an excellent result after a lot of effort by the op.
 
Your HbA1c may be skewed because of your fasting. Don't forget your recently created haemoglobin won't have glycated and the test isn't a true average over up to 3 month's as it is weighted towards the most recent week or two.
 
Your HbA1c may be skewed because of your fasting. Don't forget your recently created haemoglobin won't have glycated and the test isn't a true average over up to 3 month's as it is weighted towards the most recent week or two.

Very true I suppose.

I normally go for mine shortly after coming back from a holiday, I figure if I'm still ok after pigging out for a few weeks, drinking too much, and lying/sitting around doing a lot less than normal, it's got to be ok.

But, on the other side of the coin, if you can pass the OGTT without re-acclimatising, that must be good in itself.
 
How are your results @KevinPotts - I've been trying to follow the thread but failed miserably ... talk of stuff I don't know about - have you got your HbA1c or do you need to wait?

Sorry for being a dunce ;)

I got my OGTT today which was excellent.

Full Lipid and A1C results next Wednesday afternoon, so will report back:)


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My reactions so far; others might come to mind. The numbers in your signature represent amazing, amazing reversal in 3 months prior to today's test.

Today's OGTT yielded: time 0 hour - 1 h - 2h; FPG 5.1 - 9.7 - 7.4.

1. Officially normoglycaemic, but the levels are still too high. The criterion for positivity for this test is 7.8 or higher at 2.0 h. (This makes 7.4 a near thing.) However, the only parameter taken into consideration is the 2 hour value. The test result could be negative even with a 1 h value of 14.0.

2. There was a study of OGTT results in normoglycaemic subjects. There was a wide variety of glucose disposal agility among them. But for peak postprandial value (peak, not 2 h), no subgroup had an average greater than 7.8. This tells me that >7.8 is pathological. 9.7 is absolutely pathological, because it's very close to the renal threshold (the could be slight individual variation in the renal threshold, too). My peak used to be >10.0 and probably still is.

3. Another study using the OGTT concluded that the criterion of 8.6 at 1.0 h was statistically a better predictor of progression to diabetes than 7.8 at 2.0 h. This is just one study. The rest of the diabetes world did not pursue this finding.

4. When somebody used the phrase, "better predictor", I assume they were referring to predictor of progression to diabetes (within 5 to 10 years). We might put 'progression diabetes prediction' into the search engine, to compare the three diagnostic tests.

5. When taking the OGTT, it's not desirable to be anywhere near 7.8 at 2 h still. If it is taking 3 or 4 hours to regain fasting level after eating only sugar, then you need the saving grace of lower peak levels, perhaps 7.0. Granted, hyperglycaemia consists in the postprandial response being too high and/or too wide (time dimension). Nevertheless, if you are thinking big, i.e. aiming to fully reverse hyperglycaemic test results, that entails aiming to shrink below 7.0 mmol/l and below 2.0 h. The A1c is the average of 12 weeks worth of fasting BG's and postprandial glucose response curves. Each area under a postprandial hump (response curve) -- i.e., every meal -- will increment the A1c. Lowering the A1c entails some combination of lowering the baseline and shrinking the humps.

6. The biggest clinical shortcoming of the OGTT is that it's very inconsistent. Repetitions are fairly likely to be some positive, some negative. This is discussed in two articles, pro and con, from October 2002. (Diabetes Care magazine, 25(10), care.diabetesjournals.org > issue archive.) Point: a glucose tolerance test is important for clinical practice. DOI: 10.2337. Counterpoint: the oral glucose tolerance test is superfluous. DOI: 10.2337.

7. It's nice that both insulin and glucose were measured every half hour. With this data, you could try to do some arithmetic and compare the result to Figure 3 in this article (DeFronzo 2009 April, http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/content/58/4/773). I suppose for the IR, he used HOMA-IR (it'll be disclosed in the article). The measurements at 0 hours will yield this value, then you can plot it on the HOMA-IR graph (online).

8. It's a pity that they still use these backward tests, the fasting and the OGTT. They should already be taping a continuous meter to one's belly for 3 days, or a week.
 
My reactions so far; others might come to mind. The numbers in your signature represent amazing, amazing reversal in 3 months prior to today's test.

Today's OGTT yielded: time 0 hour - 1 h - 2h; FPG 5.1 - 9.7 - 7.4.

1. Officially normoglycaemic, but the levels are still too high. The criterion for positivity for this test is 7.8 or higher at 2.0 h. (This makes 7.4 a near thing.) However, the only parameter taken into consideration is the 2 hour value. The test result could be negative even with a 1 h value of 14.0.

2. There was a study of OGTT results in normoglycaemic subjects. There was a wide variety of glucose disposal agility among them. But for peak postprandial value (peak, not 2 h), no subgroup had an average greater than 7.8. This tells me that >7.8 is pathological. 9.7 is absolutely pathological, because it's very close to the renal threshold (the could be slight individual variation in the renal threshold, too). My peak used to be >10.0 and probably still is.

3. Another study using the OGTT concluded that the criterion of 8.6 at 1.0 h was statistically a better predictor of progression to diabetes than 7.8 at 2.0 h. This is just one study. The rest of the diabetes world did not pursue this finding.

4. When somebody used the phrase, "better predictor", I assume they were referring to predictor of progression to diabetes (within 5 to 10 years). We might put 'progression diabetes prediction' into the search engine, to compare the three diagnostic tests.

5. When taking the OGTT, it's not desirable to be anywhere near 7.8 at 2 h still. If it is taking 3 or 4 hours to regain fasting level after eating only sugar, then you need the saving grace of lower peak levels, perhaps 7.0. Granted, hyperglycaemia consists in the postprandial response being too high and/or too wide (time dimension). Nevertheless, if you are thinking big, i.e. aiming to fully reverse hyperglycaemic test results, that entails aiming to shrink below 7.0 mmol/l and below 2.0 h. The A1c is the average of 12 weeks worth of fasting BG's and postprandial glucose response curves. Each area under a postprandial hump (response curve) -- i.e., every meal -- will increment the A1c. Lowering the A1c entails some combination of lowering the baseline and shrinking the humps.

6. The biggest clinical shortcoming of the OGTT is that it's very inconsistent. Repetitions are fairly likely to be some positive, some negative. This is discussed in two articles, pro and con, from October 2002. (Diabetes Care magazine, 25(10), care.diabetesjournals.org > issue archive.) Point: a glucose tolerance test is important for clinical practice. DOI: 10.2337. Counterpoint: the oral glucose tolerance test is superfluous. DOI: 10.2337.

7. It's nice that both insulin and glucose were measured every half hour. With this data, you could try to do some arithmetic and compare the result to Figure 3 in this article (DeFronzo 2009 April, http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/content/58/4/773). I suppose for the IR, he used HOMA-IR (it'll be disclosed in the article). The measurements at 0 hours will yield this value, then you can plot it on the HOMA-IR graph (online).

8. It's a pity that they still use these backward tests, the fasting and the OGTT. They should already be taping a continuous meter to one's belly for 3 days, or a week.

Brilliant and very clear detail:)

Thank you so much, learned tons from your post:)

Are you a medic?


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My reactions so far; others might come to mind. The numbers in your signature represent amazing, amazing reversal in 3 months prior to today's test.

Today's OGTT yielded: time 0 hour - 1 h - 2h; FPG 5.1 - 9.7 - 7.4.

1. Officially normoglycaemic, but the levels are still too high. The criterion for positivity for this test is 7.8 or higher at 2.0 h. (This makes 7.4 a near thing.) However, the only parameter taken into consideration is the 2 hour value. The test result could be negative even with a 1 h value of 14.0.

2. There was a study of OGTT results in normoglycaemic subjects. There was a wide variety of glucose disposal agility among them. But for peak postprandial value (peak, not 2 h), no subgroup had an average greater than 7.8. This tells me that >7.8 is pathological. 9.7 is absolutely pathological, because it's very close to the renal threshold (the could be slight individual variation in the renal threshold, too). My peak used to be >10.0 and probably still is.

3. Another study using the OGTT concluded that the criterion of 8.6 at 1.0 h was statistically a better predictor of progression to diabetes than 7.8 at 2.0 h. This is just one study. The rest of the diabetes world did not pursue this finding.

4. When somebody used the phrase, "better predictor", I assume they were referring to predictor of progression to diabetes (within 5 to 10 years). We might put 'progression diabetes prediction' into the search engine, to compare the three diagnostic tests.

5. When taking the OGTT, it's not desirable to be anywhere near 7.8 at 2 h still. If it is taking 3 or 4 hours to regain fasting level after eating only sugar, then you need the saving grace of lower peak levels, perhaps 7.0. Granted, hyperglycaemia consists in the postprandial response being too high and/or too wide (time dimension). Nevertheless, if you are thinking big, i.e. aiming to fully reverse hyperglycaemic test results, that entails aiming to shrink below 7.0 mmol/l and below 2.0 h. The A1c is the average of 12 weeks worth of fasting BG's and postprandial glucose response curves. Each area under a postprandial hump (response curve) -- i.e., every meal -- will increment the A1c. Lowering the A1c entails some combination of lowering the baseline and shrinking the humps.

6. The biggest clinical shortcoming of the OGTT is that it's very inconsistent. Repetitions are fairly likely to be some positive, some negative. This is discussed in two articles, pro and con, from October 2002. (Diabetes Care magazine, 25(10), care.diabetesjournals.org > issue archive.) Point: a glucose tolerance test is important for clinical practice. DOI: 10.2337. Counterpoint: the oral glucose tolerance test is superfluous. DOI: 10.2337.

7. It's nice that both insulin and glucose were measured every half hour. With this data, you could try to do some arithmetic and compare the result to Figure 3 in this article (DeFronzo 2009 April, http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/content/58/4/773). I suppose for the IR, he used HOMA-IR (it'll be disclosed in the article). The measurements at 0 hours will yield this value, then you can plot it on the HOMA-IR graph (online).

8. It's a pity that they still use these backward tests, the fasting and the OGTT. They should already be taping a continuous meter to one's belly for 3 days, or a week.

In the interest of balance, it would be useful it you could provide a link to the studies you mention.

The OGTT is a good predictor, based on a normal response.
The ops results fall into the normal category, and there is little point in then trying to tighten up the category to only be at the 'best' of normal.
As you say, the 'average' of groups were 7.8, not the individual response.
Hence the 2h cutoff t the 7.8, otherwise many none diabetics would be incorrectly failing, and being classed as diabetic while having a perfectly normal response.

Another important point you seem to have overlooked, is that the op was on a low carb diet immediately before this particular test.
This has been proven to slow the insulin response in none diabetics, and normally three days acclimatisation with a high carb diet immediately before should have been undertaken.
So in view of that, it would seem it's an even better result to achieve a normal response.

However, a change of diet, fasting, weight loss, among others things can affect all the tests, so possibly it's the next round of tests that will be key, after the op has been on a steady diet for the three months before, and just before a fast period, rather than after.
 
Are you a medic?

No, but I do have a bachelor's in the science/engineering area. As with some others on this forum, I once received notice of a high A1c test, accompanied by some ill informed advice and stern reactions from HCP's. This spurred me to surf the Web. Acquired a new hobby.

There's a lot more for me to google on. I have a couple of other things that were diagnosed as the embryonic stages of aging related illnesses. I have three conditions that may stall at the harmless stage, or may progress to malignant in 10 years. If I were confident that my A1c will never cross into 48+ and stay there, I might be less eager about this topic. These postmeal rises of 5.5 mmol/L would still be disturbing.

Imagine somebody usually having a steady fasting level of 5.4. Imagine that they eat in such a way that for 24 hours straight, the BG is 7.0 (many people would consider a postmeal of 7.0 not bad). This would represent a rise in A1c of 11 IFCC units, from 31 to 42 (= 1.0% glycation). One meal where this glucose response was 7.0 for exactly 2 hours would contribute about 1 IFCC unit. (In fact, the BG ramps up and ramps down). If the rise lasts for 3 hours instead, the increase in the day's A1c would be half again as much.

Your reversal since April is fantastic. The trend is excellent. By not drinking four cans of fizzy drink at all once, maybe those rises of 4.5, 5.0 mmol/L can be avoided.
 
It bring up something I have seen in myself, that I am better off with a 45 minute and then an hour and a half test for spikes.

One doc told me that the GTT with additional testing hourly for a while cn show your bounce backability in the same wasy as taking blood pressures pulse rates and oxygen levels ever minute for ten minutes after intense 5 minute exercise can show how quick you get your pulse rate up and how quick you are to recover.

Sometimes I fool around with various breathing techniques to see what changes

I've had that test. Over here it's called an ETT (Exercise Tolerance Test). They put you on a treadmill, fully wire you to an ECT for heart monitoring, wire you to blood pressure monitor and mask for VO2

They then measure all your base lines and then gradually increase the speed and inclination if the treadmill for about 15 mins, taking every measurement every 60 secs.

Once you hit 145BPM, they fairly quickly stop the exercise and keep measuring all points to see your recovery rate.

It too me 12 mins to get to 145BPM, my heart came back down to 55BPM in about 5 mins and my BP which peaked at 12 mins at about 180/90 back to 122/72 in the same time period.

I had this test nearly two months ago, but am gutter, stronger and lighter now, so I guess my base and recovery would be further improved:).


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I can't see the science behind this weighting idea Blue tit. Prof Sakaris suggested otherwise. The turn over of red blood cells does not increase just before an hba1c test! :):) However, I do think it poor science that there is no attempt to assess our individual turn over of red blood cells and hence a way of normalising hba1c to the individual patient. D.
Your HbA1c may be skewed because of your fasting. Don't forget your recently created haemoglobin won't have glycated and the test isn't a true average over up to 3 month's as it is weighted towards the most recent week or two.
 
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No, but I do have a bachelor's in the science/engineering area. As with some others on this forum, I once received notice of a high A1c test, accompanied by some ill informed advice and stern reactions from HCP's. This spurred me to surf the Web. Acquired a new hobby.

There's a lot more for me to google on. I have a couple of other things that were diagnosed as the embryonic stages of aging related illnesses. I have three conditions that may stall at the harmless stage, or may progress to malignant in 10 years. If I were confident that my A1c will never cross into 48+ and stay there, I might be less eager about this topic. These postmeal rises of 5.5 mmol/L would still be disturbing.

Imagine somebody usually having a steady fasting level of 5.4. Imagine that they eat in such a way that for 24 hours straight, the BG is 7.0 (many people would consider a postmeal of 7.0 not bad). This would represent a rise in A1c of 11 IFCC units, from 31 to 42 (= 1.0% glycation). One meal where this glucose response was 7.0 for exactly 2 hours would contribute about 1 IFCC unit. (In fact, the BG ramps up and ramps down). If the rise lasts for 3 hours instead, the increase in the day's A1c would be half again as much.

Your reversal since April is fantastic. The trend is excellent. By not drinking four cans of fizzy drink at all once, maybe those rises of 4.5, 5.0 mmol/L can be avoided.

Any rise in BG that stays within the normal none diabetic range is exactly that , normal.
It's not doing you any favours to worry unduly about striving to keep it abnormally low, it'll just be over stressful, for no gain.
 
It depends a lot on the replacement period of individuals hemoglobin, and this can vary from person to person.

"replacement period of the individuals hemoglobin"? Unsure what that means.

Red blood cells get replaced. Haemoglobin is inside the RBC. The average RBC lifespan is said to be 12 weeks. Although experts caution that A1c being calibrated upon the expectation of 12 weeks, other lifespans will spoil the test's accuracy, in my literature search two years ago, the sources I found agreed that RBC lifespan varies in a narrow range of 12 +/- 1 week. With the exception that for certain diabetics, it's 8 weeks. There no reason to believe that variation in RBC lifespan is one of the significant interferences to the A1c.

Conventional expert wisdom says that 50% of the contribution to the A1c result comes from the most recent four weeks (eg, American Diabetes Association Complete Guide to Diabetes). The test would lose a portion of its scientific allure if the 50% period was a short as the most recent two weeks. I will grant that I've always wondered, "50% of what?" What statistical test or what physiological quantity are they basing the claim on?
 
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