Eating High Carb Low Fat, an alternative?

[Avocado Sevenfold]

Hi @tatterzombie great profile pic btw!

I am just wondering about your current HCLF ND. I have often read on here that a person doing ND should take a teaspoon of olive oil a day with their veg to maintain good gallbladder health. I am not sure how low fat you are at the moment so just putting that out there in case you missed it.

 

[tatterzombie]

thanks @Avocado Sevenfold !

I read the same thing around here somewhere as well and I do wonder about that.. right now through oat bran and flax seed I am usually around 8-10 grams of fat..
Would I notice anything if my gallbladder thought this is too little?
I mean, I've got lots of fat on my body.. shouldn't the gallbladder be able to utilize that if it needs more?

 

[zand]

Hi @tatterzombie great profile pic btw!

I am just wondering about your current HCLF ND. I have often read on here that a person doing ND should take a teaspoon of olive oil a day with their veg to maintain good gallbladder health. I am not sure how low fat you are at the moment so just putting that out there in case you missed it.

Yes that's a mistake I made too.

 

[Oldvatr]

I have a few questions on this HCLF diet plan. Firstly, i see a lack of lipid pofile data being posted, so I wonder how it affects this.

Secondly, how does this diet relate to anyone suffering NAFLD? At least a ketogenic diet will help to burn off adipose storage fat. Is this diet requiring a significant exercise regime in support, or is it suitable for the more sedentary person.

How do I as a relative lightweight (65kg weakling) control my weight and prevent weight loss or put on weight if I need to?

What about the micronutrients? What supplements are advised? Especially the fat soluble vitamins.

The discussion so far has been on carbs and fat, but nothing about protein levels. Clues, anyone? I assume this diet excludes dairy and avacados. Are grains mandatory or optional? Is soya recommended?

I am not trying to destroy this thread. These questions are the same ones I applied to the LCHF and Atkins diets recently, so I am trying to see how this diet compares. There is more at stake than bgl and bmi. (stake, not steak, = not typo)

 

[Oldvatr]

thanks @Avocado Sevenfold !

I read the same thing around here somewhere as well and I do wonder about that.. right now through oat bran and flax seed I am usually around 8-10 grams of fat..
Would I notice anything if my gallbladder thought this is too little?
I mean, I've got lots of fat on my body.. shouldn't the gallbladder be able to utilize that if it needs more?

LDL takes triglicerides to the cells, HDL hoovers up the unused trigs, and takes them to the liver for recycling. The liver can package some back into new LDL, but a lot will be excreted back into the intestine and voided. The gallbladder is the solenoid valve that controls the flow of excess trigs. If the flow of bile is significant, then the chances of developing gallstones is low, so an HF diet is actually beneficial. On a low fat diet, studies have shown a higher risk of gallstones devloping, and higher likelihood of gallbladder surgery.

You will know if you develop gallstones, but will not be aware until the blockage has occurred.

 

[tatterzombie]

Good morning @Oldvatr

I did not post a lipid profile because I didn't have one done.. I had one done before hclf when I was diagnosed with diabetes.. Cholesterol was ok.. Triglycerides were rather high, I think about 400 (but I have no idea what kind of units).. Greece is trying to cut back on health care costs so doctors have become rather stingy with prescribing blood tests..
I have always had high triglycerides.. But no doctor ever suggested anything to treat this other than losing weight..

The diet excludes diary but not avocados.. You can certainly fit them in, in small amounts. Dr Greger and Dr Barnard even explicitly allow a small portion of nuts/seeds..
But even in its most strict the diet is not fat free as whole foods are never totally fat free.. There is fat in oats, in potatoes.. in everything
Grains are not mandatory, neither is soy. Beans are recommended in varying amounts as are fruit..
There is no specific amount of protein they suggest.. (how many beans can you eat? )
As for the fat soluble vitamins, it is a low fat diet not a no fat diet.. It is probably best to combine your salad with those few nuts..

Advised supplements are B12 and just my suggestion a brazil nut a day just in case the food you get was grown on selenium depleted soil..

As for the rest.. I am no doctor .. So I checked the doctors promoting this.. Unfortunately I couldn't find something better than this for NAFLD ( http://nutritionfacts.org/video/prevent-non-alcoholic-fatty-liver-disease/ )

And about weight gain scroll to the bottom here ( https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2003nl/jul/030700HowDoIGainWeightPF.htm )

For further questions towards someone who will be better at answering I would like to direct you to https://www.drmcdougall.com/health/education/webinars/
They hold weekly webinars and questions can be submitted..

On a different lipid profile note.. I intend to have a full blood test early in November.. If you have patience, there will be numbers submitted here

 

[Oldvatr]

Good morning @Oldvatr

I did not post a lipid profile because I didn't have one done.. I had one done before hclf when I was diagnosed with diabetes.. Cholesterol was ok.. Triglycerides were rather high, I think about 400 (but I have no idea what kind of units).. Greece is trying to cut back on health care costs so doctors have become rather stingy with prescribing blood tests..
I have always had high triglycerides.. But no doctor ever suggested anything to treat this other than losing weight..

The diet excludes diary but not avocados.. You can certainly fit them in, in small amounts. Dr Greger and Dr Barnard even explicitly allow a small portion of nuts/seeds..
But even in its most strict the diet is not fat free as whole foods are never totally fat free.. There is fat in oats, in potatoes.. in everything
Grains are not mandatory, neither is soy. Beans are recommended in varying amounts as are fruit..
There is no specific amount of protein they suggest.. (how many beans can you eat? )
As for the fat soluble vitamins, it is a low fat diet not a no fat diet.. It is probably best to combine your salad with those few nuts..

Advised supplements are B12 and just my suggestion a brazil nut a day just in case the food you get was grown on selenium depleted soil..

As for the rest.. I am no doctor .. So I checked the doctors promoting this.. Unfortunately I couldn't find something better than this for NAFLD ( http://nutritionfacts.org/video/prevent-non-alcoholic-fatty-liver-disease/ )

And about weight gain scroll to the bottom here ( https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2003nl/jul/030700HowDoIGainWeightPF.htm )

For further questions towards someone who will be better at answering I would like to direct you to https://www.drmcdougall.com/health/education/webinars/
They hold weekly webinars and questions can be submitted..

On a different lipid profile note.. I intend to have a full blood test early in November.. If you have patience, there will be numbers submitted here

Thank you for your in depth reply. I am T2D ans until recently was on Eatwell'#1 diet, i.e. HCLF but otherwise unrestricted in food sources. I was overweight, had the normal T2 characteristics of mucho adipose tissue,expanding waistline, and bgl totally wacky and out of control. I was a serious candidate for insulin therapy.
I am looking at this diet discussion to see if it would have produced a similar beneficial reduction in those bad characteristics when compared to the diet I actually used successfully.
In terms of weight control, there are IMO two basic pathways for this - glycogen control or ketosis. Glycogen comes from both carbs and protein and is the primary weight and fat storage path. It takes precedence over ketosis (fat burning). So, apart from doing an insane amount of exercise to use up the glycogen in our bodies, then the only way to control the glucogen pathway is carb and protein restriction. When glucogen is available in the blood, then the ketosis pathway is normally closed, so the burning of fat from the adipocytes does not occur, and our bloated bodies retain this fat and NAFLD is a consequence. So I am interested in how the HCLF diet would act to reduce fatty livers once they are present, since ketosis is inhibited by the glucogen being plentiful. The only way I can see it happening is major exercise together with serious fasting.

Of course, a very low fat diet will not add to the adipocyte storage so will not cause NAFLD since most of the fatty acids produced would be used normally. So this diet may be of more benfit to Newbie T2D rather than a fully hardened established T2D with a belly.

I need to view the videos you linked to. Reading the blurb, I have to say that the advice in many places seems to be at odds with some of the recent studies we have seen in the passt year. Epecially the study that shows there is no link between dietary cholesterol and our internal lipids. This is where the limit of 1 egg a week comes from since the doctors seem very ovophobic.

 

[Indy51]

If you do a search for "quackwatch barnard", you'll get a whole heap of posts at various places, including diabetes sites. I didn't bother searching any of the others but Greger always seems a bit suss to me from the few video snippets of his that I've seen. There's a "holy roller" type of vibe about the guy.

 

[Oldvatr]

If you do a search for "quackwatch barnard", you'll get a whole heap of posts at various places, including diabetes sites. I didn't bother searching any of the others but Greger always seems a bit suss to me from the few video snippets of his that I've seen. There's a "holy roller" type of vibe about the guy.

Yes we saw that in the recent thread on Whole Food Plant Based (WFPB), where there was religious zeal in abundance. But there seem to be valid claims being put forward that a HCLF diet works for diabetics, and I suppose we need to review it and discuss it. The description of the endocrine system does seem to be archaic, and is no longer supported by recent research findings, but then how good is recent research? i am happier with it when compared to the out and out lies and misrepresentaion of older studies pre 2006, but we should not make an automatic assumption that because it is recent then it must be true, The jury is still out on some of the recent findings.

I must admit that when I asked the question Has anyone had any success with WFPB there were zero responses. I now ask this thread - has anyone had success with an HCLF diet of any type?

 

[Indy51]

For anyone who hasn't seen this (I'm pretty sure it's been posted a few times), a talk by Denise Minger about this type of diet:

And a followup blogpost she wrote on the subject:

https://rawfoodsos.com/2015/10/06/in-defense-of-low-fat-a-call-for-some-evolution-of-thought-part-1/

 

[Oldvatr]

Yes we saw that in the recent thread on Whole Food Plant Based (WFPB), where there was religious zeal in abundance. But there seem to be valid claims being put forward that a HCLF diet works for diabetics, and I suppose we need to review it and discuss it. The description of the endocrine system does seem to be archaic, and is no longer supported by recent research findings, but then how good is recent research? i am happier with it when compared to the out and out lies and misrepresentaion of older studies pre 2006, but we should not make an automatic assumption that because it is recent then it must be true, The jury is still out on some of the recent findings.

I must admit that when I asked the question Has anyone had any success with WFPB there were zero responses. I now ask this thread - has anyone had success with an HCLF diet of any type?

Replying to my own posting, the so called scientific study that was conducted by Dr Barnard claims that results for weight and bgl on his diet were substantially better than the ADA recommended diet, hence a cure for diabetes 'is possible'. in actual fact, the first step in his diet is to eliminate processed foods, and I suspect that any diet that eliminates those will be better than ADA (and Eatwell) Also banning sugar.

It seems that the Barnard diet is not a specific High Carb diet, but is a carb allowed / high fibre vegan diet. Not sure what Greger is proposing in his apart from a strict egg limit.

 

[SunnyExpat]

Good morning @Oldvatr

I did not post a lipid profile because I didn't have one done.. I had one done before hclf when I was diagnosed with diabetes.. Cholesterol was ok.. Triglycerides were rather high, I think about 400 (but I have no idea what kind of units).. Greece is trying to cut back on health care costs so doctors have become rather stingy with prescribing blood tests..
I have always had high triglycerides.. But no doctor ever suggested anything to treat this other than losing weight..

The diet excludes diary but not avocados.. You can certainly fit them in, in small amounts. Dr Greger and Dr Barnard even explicitly allow a small portion of nuts/seeds..
But even in its most strict the diet is not fat free as whole foods are never totally fat free.. There is fat in oats, in potatoes.. in everything
Grains are not mandatory, neither is soy. Beans are recommended in varying amounts as are fruit..
There is no specific amount of protein they suggest.. (how many beans can you eat? )
As for the fat soluble vitamins, it is a low fat diet not a no fat diet.. It is probably best to combine your salad with those few nuts..

Advised supplements are B12 and just my suggestion a brazil nut a day just in case the food you get was grown on selenium depleted soil..

As for the rest.. I am no doctor .. So I checked the doctors promoting this.. Unfortunately I couldn't find something better than this for NAFLD ( http://nutritionfacts.org/video/prevent-non-alcoholic-fatty-liver-disease/ )

And about weight gain scroll to the bottom here ( https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2003nl/jul/030700HowDoIGainWeightPF.htm )

For further questions towards someone who will be better at answering I would like to direct you to https://www.drmcdougall.com/health/education/webinars/
They hold weekly webinars and questions can be submitted..

On a different lipid profile note.. I intend to have a full blood test early in November.. If you have patience, there will be numbers submitted here

I'm sure we'll all be wishing you well, and will be interested to see what your levels will be like after a few months of your diet, and when things have stabilised.

 

[Oldvatr]

For anyone who hasn't seen this (I'm pretty sure it's been posted a few times), a talk by Denise Minger about this type of diet:

And a followup blogpost she wrote on the subject:

https://rawfoodsos.com/2015/10/06/in-defense-of-low-fat-a-call-for-some-evolution-of-thought-part-1/

Interesting take on this type of diet. A couple of things struck me. Firstly the trials and studies all had very small samples, and were not RCT or blind studies. interesting, but not conclusive. Also the all cause mortality Q&A was interesting, especially in the light of recent study that shows all cause mortality on a low fat diet was higher than most others (mind you, there is that point of low fat < 10%, not the normal 30%) Apparently more suicides on low fat diet, including the ones being discussed in the video.

I have an interest in this approach since I am not totally convinced that the jury has finally settled in respect of HF being ok. But there are many presentations showing that HF produces good lipid profiles and good outcomes which are missing from the evidence given for HCLF or WFPB. However, having said that, my own personal lipids aren't great on LCHF so far.

 

[Avocado Sevenfold]

@tatterzombie There are many self-styled experts on the internet, people with axes to grind etc. Personally, I am only interested in your experience of diabetes control as this is the subject of the thread. It worries me that I could one day end up in a nursing home or hospital and as a LCHF vegan would starve to death. It would reassure me to learn if HCLF would perhaps be a viable option.

As far as I know, you cannot use stored body fat to prevent gallstones although I like your optimism! I hope @Pipp does not mind me tagging her. She has experience of both ND and sadly gallbladder problems.

 

[tatterzombie]

@Avocado Sevenfold: I wouldn't be too worried about the HCLF as I tried it and as long as I adhered to it, it worked for me.. as long as you remain under 10% fat all should be good

My further experience concerning HCLF will continue after ND is over early in September, so till then updates will be over in the low calorie forum ( http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/newcastle-diet-reporting-from-crete.104764/ )
But till then I can only say.. HCLF ND produces amazing results

 

[Pinkorchid]

Well my diet is more moderation I have always been low in saturated fat as I don't like red meat sausages bacon cream or butter and I have eaten like that for years and years. I still eat most vegetables and fruit love salads with cold chicken or fish and I have cheese and eggs . My last HbA1c blood test had gone from 46 to 42 so I am happy with that. I am 77 in good health with no other illnesses or mobility problems.

 

[Pipp]

@tatterzombie There are many self-styled experts on the internet, people with axes to grind etc. Personally, I am only interested in your experience of diabetes control as this is the subject of the thread. It worries me that I could one day end up in a nursing home or hospital and as a LCHF vegan would starve to death. It would reassure me to learn if HCLF would perhaps be a viable option.

As far as I know, you cannot use stored body fat to prevent gallstones although I like your optimism! I hope @Pipp does not mind me tagging her. She has experience of both ND and sadly gallbladder problems.

Hi @Avocado Sevenfold . Sorry I am a bit late to the party. Not had the best of weeks.
I have been tagged because I might be able to share info about my experience of ND and gallbladder?

Hope I got that right, and this is of use to @tatterzombie .

I used ND method way back before it was mainstream. At the time it was for me an alternative to bariatric surgery. I had great success with weight loss and apparent T2 reversal.
I already knew I needed abdominal surgery to repair adhesions and other problems from previous surgeries. I knew I had gallstones too, even though they were not giving symptoms. The gallstones were described to me as being just like grains of sand. No treatment needed. What I hadn't been advised, (despite doing ND with medical supervision) was that I should add some oil to the diet. The gallstones grew to the size of marbles, within the space of a few months. That necessitated gallbladder removal. Unfortunately, the gallbladder ruptured in surgery. Not pleasant. I was very ill after that.
I would urge everybody doing ND to ensure that they have some oil daily. Also that they don't skip any of the meal replacements. If you are meant to have 3 a day have them all.

 

[NoCrbs4Me]

@Avocado Sevenfold: I wouldn't be too worried about the HCLF as I tried it and as long as I adhered to it, it worked for me.. as long as you remain under 10% fat all should be good

My further experience concerning HCLF will continue after ND is over early in September, so till then updates will be over in the low calorie forum ( http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/newcastle-diet-reporting-from-crete.104764/ )
But till then I can only say.. HCLF ND produces amazing results

Perhaps I missed it, but if HCLF was working for you, why are you trying ND?

 

[tim2000s]

Perhaps I missed it, but if HCLF was working for you, why are you trying ND?

If you read the OPs original post, it relates to weight loss rather than blood glucose control.

 

[NoCrbs4Me]

If you read the OPs original post, it relates to weight loss rather than blood glucose control.

A starvation diet will certainly result in weight loss, there's no doubt about that.