BBC1 Wales - Fat v Carbs with Jamie Owen

jonbvn

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Just watched BBC1 Wales - Fat v Carbs with Jamie Owen. It should be available shortly on iplayer.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07xwstx

The program provided quite a balanced approach (IMHO). It certainly questioned the current NHS dietary guidelines. It was nice to see that after 3 weeks on LCHF the presenter's cholesterol was down and he had lost half a stone in weight.

I thought it was interesting to see that the medical professionals against the LCHF diet did not have a valid response to the reason why obesity has trebled and T2 diabetes has doubled, in the period the NHS dietary guidelines had been in place.
 
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IanD

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Thanks for the link. Seems there's always the same professional argument -
No long term data on the safety of a LCHF diet.

There are many thousands of contributors to this forum who have many years experience of LCHF - in my case 8 years & I am fit & well at 77. Previous I had followed the Duk/NHS high carb diet & it destroyed my health by debilitating complications.

The BBC1 Panorama showed the surgical approach - amputation & bariatric surgery. I phoned the helpline & they recommended contact with Duk. They only give advice to have a lot fat diet. They are not against reducing carb, but low carb, low fat is not a practical diet.
 

ChrisSamsDad

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Thanks for the link. Seems there's always the same professional argument -
No long term data on the safety of a LCHF diet.

There are many thousands of contributors to this forum who have many years experience of LCHF - in my case 8 years & I am fit & well at 77. Previous I had followed the Duk/NHS high carb diet & it destroyed my health by debilitating complications.

The BBC1 Panorama showed the surgical approach - amputation & bariatric surgery. I phoned the helpline & they recommended contact with Duk. They only give advice to have a lot fat diet. They are not against reducing carb, but low carb, low fat is not a practical diet.

I think there is often a misunderstanding about what constitutes 'evidence' for medical / nutrition science - one big problem with the testimony of lots of individuals is that it's not objective but subjective. Dietary studies are notoriously difficult, because on the whole, people are pretty poor at reporting what they've eaten, forgetting the odd biscuit, under-estimating the portion size they had etc. Some studies address this issue by essentially tightly controlling what people eat, by locking them up in a hospital for instance, but obviously you can't do that for a long term study.

Another issue is the problem of self-selection element - if you were take the evidence of the people on here, there would be an issue that meant you couldn't extrapolate to the whole of society - the people on here who'd be happy to contribute are the ones who'd generally had success, or at least were motivated enough to have tried, there are not a random un-biased sample by any means - you might as well do a survey on wealth distribution in Harrods.

What I've found about the LCHF diet is that it's easy if you're doing it for the whole family, but harder when your family still want to have carbs - they're in the house, you have to cook 2 meals sometimes etc; it takes a bit of creativity and cooking skill and a lot of people don't have that; it's very hard to stick you if you travel a lot. I really don't think it would work for everybody - and there's another area of knowledge which we don't have - for whom is LCHF suitable - not just lifestyle issues like the above, but also there are many types of diabetes, in combination with other conditions - and LCHF won't necessarily be the best choice in the case of certain combinations. It's this kind of evidence that doctors are missing - they want clear guidelines - GPs in particular can't be experts in everything, and generally they want to have a distilled simple plan to follow, compiled by the best experts in the field, and based on the best evidence.

It takes a lot for a GP to go against the guidelines they're told to work under. It's the NHS that needs convincing as a whole.
 
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tim2000s

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Which is why, in the context of Type 2, the best advice is buy a meter and eat to it. Eat foods that don't cause increased blood glucose levels. Surely that's where we need to start?
 
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Pinkorchid

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There will always be many diabetics who even if they know about LCHF find it difficult to do it for many different reasons. Some it may not suit because of other health conditions, some are on a very limited food budgets who can only afford the cheaper foods which are usually higher carb and they certainly can't afford to buy glucose meter strips. Having to cook different meals for their self and the family is more expensive but we can't expect them to give up the foods they like because we have diabetes so the LCHF will often goes by the board for the diabetic. People who because of other health and mobility problems as well as diabetes have carers coming in every day. They are only allowed to heat up microwave food for them so they only eat ready meals which are usually high carb with rice, pasta and potatoes and sandwiches difficult to do LCHF then. Then there are the thousands who have never heard of LCHF and probably most of them never will unless LCHF ever becomes the medical advice world wide. I wonder how many people who joined this forum started LCHF but did not keep it up
 
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IanD

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Yes, BUT
If Diabetes UK were not so pig-headed about carbs & fat their literature would offer the option LCHF alongside the dodgy diet they recommend. In the beginning I thought they knew what they were reommending.
Actually DUK know that their diet fails - their intro video illustrates how carbs convert to blood sugar & assures new patients that T2 is progressive.
 
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GeoffersTaylor

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I don't see why cooking for the family needs to be so difficult. I often cook for mine and simply don't have the pasta/rice/spuds that the others have. I might add a salad, roast a few additional veggies or simply dollop on the mayo but it's fundamentally the same food quite a lot of the time.
 

IanD

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I think there is often a misunderstanding about what constitutes 'evidence' for medical / nutrition science - one big problem with the testimony of lots of individuals is that it's not objective but subjective. Dietary studies are notoriously difficult, because on the whole, people are pretty poor at reporting what they've eaten, forgetting the odd biscuit, under-estimating the portion size they had etc. Some studies address this issue by essentially tightly controlling what people eat, by locking them up in a hospital for instance, but obviously you can't do that for a long term study.

Another issue is the problem of self-selection element - if you were take the evidence of the people on here, there would be an issue that meant you couldn't extrapolate to the whole of society - the people on here who'd be happy to contribute are the ones who'd generally had success, or at least were motivated enough to have tried, there are not a random un-biased sample by any means - you might as well do a survey on wealth distribution in Harrods.

What I've found about the LCHF diet is that it's easy if you're doing it for the whole family, but harder when your family still want to have carbs - they're in the house, you have to cook 2 meals sometimes etc; it takes a bit of creativity and cooking skill and a lot of people don't have that; it's very hard to stick you if you travel a lot. I really don't think it would work for everybody - and there's another area of knowledge which we don't have - for whom is LCHF suitable - not just lifestyle issues like the above, but also there are many types of diabetes, in combination with other conditions - and LCHF won't necessarily be the best choice in the case of certain combinations. It's this kind of evidence that doctors are missing - they want clear guidelines - GPs in particular can't be experts in everything, and generally they want to have a distilled simple plan to follow, compiled by the best experts in the field, and based on the best evidence.

It takes a lot for a GP to go against the guidelines they're told to work under. It's the NHS that needs convincing as a whole.

That is much too technical - the evidence problem is is that the only evidence the self-proclaimed "experts" at Diabetes uk recognise is what supports their opinions. I have discussed it with them in great detail, & shown them that reports they cite to prove what they say in fact come to the opposite conclusion.

e.g. Here I quote from a letter to Diabetes uk:

"... there is NO suggestion in your literature that a low carbohydrate (diet) could be beneficial. We only read recommendations:
“Include carbohydrate … Cut the fat”
in spite of your observation, “They (carbohydrates) all break down into glucose, so they will cause your blood sugar levels to be high.....”
........
"Perhaps the best starting point for further discussion is the DUK position statement: -
“Low-carbohydrate diets for people with Type 2 diabetes (Mar 2011)”
https://www.diabetes.org.uk/About_u...ydrate-diets-for-people-with-Type-2-diabetes/

I'll quote your conclusions:
Diabetes UK has concluded that:
  • Evidence exists suggesting that low-carbohydrate diets can lead to improvements in HbA1c and reductions in body weight in the short term (less than one year).

  • Weight loss from a low-carbohydrate diet may be due to a reduced calorie intake and not specifically as a result of the carbohydrate reduction associated with this diet.

  • Despite the short-term benefit there is a lack of evidence related to long-term safety and benefit of following this diet.
My comment on those conclusion:
"Those positive, though tentative, conclusions suggest that further investigation into the “long-term safety and benefit” is likely to be fruitful. As the report was issued 5 years ago, much further information should now be available, both from experience of people like me & others contributing to the www.diabetes.co.uk/forum and from diabetes professionals responding to the experience of their patients, e.g. as reported by the Public Health Collaboration www.phcuk.org & of course from on-going DUK research."

The “Position statement” asserts: “Despite the short-term benefit there is a lack of evidence related to long-term safety and benefit of following this diet.”

The Duk claim is that low carbohydrate tests are for “less than a year” yet citations 11, 12, 13 report on-going research for up to 44 months, include control groups some of whom adopted the low carbohydrate diet when they saw the benefits for others.
I strongly recommend that everyone interested should download & read this report - it's not too technical, & totally refutes NHS/Duk diet advice:
https://nutritionandmetabolism.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1743-7075-5-14

The “Discussion” section of citation 13 (Nielsen, Sweden, 2008) states:

"There is now little evidence for the claim that a fat-reduced diet for weight reduction has any particular value beyond caloric counting [10]. On the other hand, six randomised studies have shown that carbohydrate restriction with ad-libitum energy intake confers a significant benefit with regard to weight loss in obese persons [11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16]. The current study is consistent with these reports and suggests that high-starch, high-carbohydrate diets excessively stimulate appetite and disturb energy balance in patients with the metabolic syndrome and type 2 diabetes [3]. A reduction of carbohydrates normalises the balance, reduces insulin concentrations and favours utilization of stored fat as fuel as well as significantly reducing insulin resistance [3]. Considering the solid evidence for the negative effect of hyperglycemia on diabetes complications as well as cardiovascular disease the present high-carbohydrate dietary advice resulting in unnecessary hyperglycemia and insulin resistance seems difficult to support [17, 18, 19] and for diabetes patients, current dietary recommendations seem to be a major part of their problem rather than being part of the solution. Carbohydrate restriction, however, reverses or neutralises all aspects of the metabolic syndrome [20, 21]."
 

ChrisSamsDad

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Ah OK, thanks IanD, that's much less technical.
 

Etty

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Everything you say applies to the recommended low fat diet as well as the low carb diet, but our health professionals don't have any problems explaining or promoting low fat diets. The diets should, at the least, be given to patients as an equal choice-- let the patients decide which diet makes more sense for carb-challenged people with diabetes.
 
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IanD

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Everything you say applies to the recommended low fat diet as well as the low carb diet, but our health professionals don't have any problems explaining or promoting low fat diets. The diets should, at the least, be given to patients as an equal choice-- let the patients decide which diet makes more sense for carb-challenged people with diabetes.

Yes - that was the approach I was using with Duk - but they did not understand simple English:

I wrote: "I hope I have given enough food for consideration for DUK to undertake a proper review of its dietary recommendations, & so produce a low carbohydrate diet document for issue to diabetes professionals giving suggested diet recommendations for patients, together with any cautions considered advisable so that practitioners can make the necessary checks."

They replied: "I appreciate that you feel Diabetes UK is not promoting a low carb diet as the only way to manage diabetes (in the same way as diabetes.co.uk or the Public Health Collaboration) but I reiterate that we believe, based on the evidence, that it is only one of various approaches that can have a beneficial effect, depending on what the individual can personally tolerate."

Hows this for a brush-off?
"Many thanks for your detailed comments and further references.
I am forwarding this on to our lead dietitian, who will be conducting the next review of our guidance, who I am sure will take your comments and suggestions into consideration."
 

MikeTurin

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Another issue is the problem of self-selection element - if you were take the evidence of the people on here, there would be an issue that meant you couldn't extrapolate to the whole of society - the people on here who'd be happy to contribute are the ones who'd generally had success, or at least were motivated enough to have tried, there are not a random un-biased sample by any means - you might as well do a survey on wealth distribution in Harrods.
I've watched, having found it on youtube, the programme. It was really interesting.
About what you're saying, I think you nailed the point. The self-selection on success stories and the increased awareness on what one eats could make the difference.
I am using an app on the smartphone to more or less track the calories and carb intake and what I've found is that is easy to unwittingly eat a lot of carbs (more than 65% of calories intake) even following an 'healthy' diet. Simply trying to stay under 50% of carbs intake requires some thought about what one eats, for instance stop eating bread: if you start to have to be attentive on what you eat, I think you start to eat healthier, and this could make the difference.
 
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ChrisSamsDad

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I've watched, having found it on youtube, the programme. It was really interesting.
About what you're saying, I think you nailed the point. The self-selection on success stories and the increased awareness on what one eats could make the difference.
I am using an app on the smartphone to more or less track the calories and carb intake and what I've found is that is easy to unwittingly eat a lot of carbs (more than 65% of calories intake) even following an 'healthy' diet. Simply trying to stay under 50% of carbs intake requires some thought about what one eats, for instance stop eating bread: if you start to have to be attentive on what you eat, I think you start to eat healthier, and this could make the difference.

Yeah, we're, on the whole not treating this as a strictly controlled experiment - For myself, as well as cutting down dramatically on carbs, I've also taken on board advice about omegas and trans-fats, so don't eat margarine at all or processed food much, eating more vegetables and exercising regularly, cutting out meds - the number of variables involved makes my single person 'experiment' useless as data. I'm still open to idea the weight loss and BG lowering I've experienced is down to one or more of those things.

I find much of the info floating around on this site is not based on solid evidence - advice that either works for that person but can't be extrapolated out to other diabetics or the general population, or doesn't work but the person believes it does. Some is based on 'common-sense' principles such as the Paleo diet, but goes against scientific evidence.
 
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IanD

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I find much of the info floating around on this site is not based on solid evidence - advice that either works for that person but can't be extrapolated out to other diabetics or the general population, or doesn't work but the person believes it does. Some is based on 'common-sense' principles such as the Paleo diet, but goes against scientific evidence.

Maybe - BUT the "scientific evidence" presented by DUK as if it were reliable & trustworthy is anything but.
 

ChrisSamsDad

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Maybe - BUT the "scientific evidence" presented by DUK as if it were reliable & trustworthy is anything but.
In my opinion, like the NHS's advice, it's outdated and based on low-quality evidence. There is reasonable evidence that for some people LCHF works - But then similar evidence exists for the traditional low-cal diet,

I don't think there's a definitive study across the whole population that says low carb is better than the general low cal, low fat diet. It's not 100% that LCHF works for everyone. Like many complicated things, there isn't a simple answer. Diabetes UK and the NHS who seem to follow their advice need a radical re-think on type 2, because as a whole it's getting worse not better.

Part of a new approach might include suggesting sufferers try the LCHF, or targetting those that would benefit.

I think though that we should stop calling it a name with 'high fat' in it - it's not helping, we really mean, 'not low fat' or 'reasonable fat'.
 

Pinkorchid

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In my opinion, like the NHS's advice, it's outdated and based on low-quality evidence. There is reasonable evidence that for some people LCHF works - But then similar evidence exists for the traditional low-cal diet,

I don't think there's a definitive study across the whole population that says low carb is better than the general low cal, low fat diet. It's not 100% that LCHF works for everyone. Like many complicated things, there isn't a simple answer. Diabetes UK and the NHS who seem to follow their advice need a radical re-think on type 2, because as a whole it's getting worse not better.

Part of a new approach might include suggesting sufferers try the LCHF, or targetting those that would benefit.

I think though that we should stop calling it a name with 'high fat' in it - it's not helping, we really mean, 'not low fat' or 'reasonable fat'.
I say it depends on the individual person as to what suits them ..there is no one size fits all especially when it come to diets... I am sure there are many on this forum who do things differently to LCHF yet are still doing well
 

IanD

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I think though that we should stop calling it a name with 'high fat' in it - it's not helping, we really mean, 'not low fat' or 'reasonable fat'.

I normally refer to "increased fat" or "fat as it comes."
 

bulkbiker

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In my opinion, like the NHS's advice, it's outdated and based on low-quality evidence. There is reasonable evidence that for some people LCHF works - But then similar evidence exists for the traditional low-cal diet,

I don't think there's a definitive study across the whole population that says low carb is better than the general low cal, low fat diet. It's not 100% that LCHF works for everyone. Like many complicated things, there isn't a simple answer. Diabetes UK and the NHS who seem to follow their advice need a radical re-think on type 2, because as a whole it's getting worse not better.

Part of a new approach might include suggesting sufferers try the LCHF, or targetting those that would benefit.

I think though that we should stop calling it a name with 'high fat' in it - it's not helping, we really mean, 'not low fat' or 'reasonable fat'.

Is there really any evidence for the low-cal diet working?
With newer science showing that the more you restrict your calories the slower your metabolism gets surely it is going to be debunked soon.
There are 23 pages of posts in the Success stories here which surely suggests that a low-carb way is better.
Yes I know it's anecdotal but surely enough anecdotes must add up to something? Even you are doing it...
 

sally and james

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I have just caught up with the programme via iplayer and, while I know it's not very nice of me to make personal remarks about people who are only trying to do their job, I did notice that the GP and the dietician, who were stressing the dangers of LCHF were both, let's be blunt, FAT. And that Zoe Harcombe, Aseem Malhotra and Sam Feltham for the Real Food, avoid carbs/sugars lobby are all beautifully slim and healthy looking.
Should I assume they are all practising what they preach?
Would you go to a hairdresser with split ends or a dentist with rotten teeth?
Sally