Low Carbing and Physiological Insulin Resistance

[AndBreathe]

On a T1 thread ( http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/type-1-a-good-hba1c-without-hypos.114193/page-3#post-1354303 ), @azure , in past #35, you post:

"I agree @Garr Eating a moderate level of carbs can give you a great HbA1C as long as you apply yourself. That way you also avoid the physiological insulin resistance that so,often comes with cutting out carbs and ketosis. You also usually don't need to bolus for protein when you have carbs with it.

It's a total fallacy to say that LCHF is the only way to get good results. Controlling carbs, yes, but that doesn't mean you have to cut them out completely."

I would be interested to learn what percentage of low carbers you believe develop physiological insulin resistance (PIR), as a result of the LC approach, and at what point they develop it?

I started a new thread to prevent derailing the source thread, and think others could be interested too.

For those reading who are T2 (or other non-insulin dependant members) who have not fully read the source thread, please note it is a T1 thread, so please do not post on there, unless you have something both relevant and on-topic. I would hate to be stimulating content at risk of editing or deletion.

Thanks in anticipation everyone.

Edited to add that I have deliberately posted in this section for those of us who consider food to be our medicine'

 

[azure]

I've no idea of the percentage @AndBreathe I haven't come across any studies examining that, nor have I seen any percentages quoted in anything I've read. However, I consider it enough of a concern that it's one of my own personal reasons why I wouldnt choose to drop below a certain level of carbs. That is, I don't think the percentage is insubstantial.

But for myself, it's just one reason of many

Edited to add my post above was in response to a Type 1 and was talking about Type 1 treatment and issues.

 

[NoCrbs4Me]

Physiological insulin resistance on a low carb diet isn't an issue unless you stop low carbing.
Even then, about a week of a normal level of carb intake will reverse the physiological insulin resistance.
I don't think everyone that low carbs gets physiological insulin resistance - I don't seem to have it.

 

[AndBreathe]

Physiological insulin resistance on a low carb diet isn't an issue unless you stop low carbing.
Even then, about a week of a normal level of carb intake will reverse the physiological insulin resistance.
I don't think everyone that low carbs gets physiological insulin resistance - I don't seem to have it.

I don't believe I have it either, so was interested to learn if I had missed anything in the reading I had done.

 

[douglas99]

Physiological insulin resistance on a low carb diet isn't an issue unless you stop low carbing.
Even then, about a week of a normal level of carb intake will reverse the physiological insulin resistance.
I don't think everyone that low carbs gets physiological insulin resistance - I don't seem to have it.

I do, badly, do you have the odd splurge on carbs now and again, you sly dog?

 

[AndBreathe]

Thanks for responding @azure .

 

[douglas99]

I don't believe I have it either, so was interested to learn if I had missed anything in the reading I had done.

And you as well!

Carboholics anonymous needed!

 

[AndBreathe]

And you as well!

Carboholics anonymous needed!

What's that supposed to mean?

 

[douglas99]

What's that supposed to mean?

It means

How do you know you have no physiological insulin resistance, unless you stuff your face full of carbs?

Then, assuming you do go on the odd bender, and so prove you don't have physiological insulin resistance, you are an addict, and then it's a play on alcoholics anonymous.



smiley emoji, Just in case

 

[AndBreathe]

It means

How do you know you have no physiological insulin resistance, unless you stuff your face full of carbs?

Then, assuming you do go on the odd bender, and so prove you don't have physiological insulin resistance, you are an addict, and then it's a play on alcoholics anonymous.



smiley emoji, Just in case

Well, my diet and blood numbers have pretty consistent, and (albeit badly) illustrated by my HbA1c. I have also used several Libre sensors and have a couple of years of asame range and variance of fasting, pre-meal and post meal numbers.

As I started testing with 1 week of diagnosis, before I started low-carbing, I think that's a fair indication. Do you know of a more balanced way of assessing it? For instance, how do you know you actually suffer from PIR?

For the record, I'm not saying you don't. How could I? I'm just trying to understand your rationale in reaching your assessments.

 

[douglas99]

Well, my diet and blood numbers have been very consistent, and (albeit badly) illustrated by my HbA1c. I have also used several Libre sensors and have a couple of years of asame range and variance of fasting, pre-meal and post meal numbers.

As I started testing with 1 week of diagnosis, before I started low-carbing, I think that's a fair indication. Do you know of a more balanced way of assessing it? For instance, how do you know you actually suffer from PIR?

For the record, I'm not saying you don't. How could I? I'm just trying to understand your rationale in reaching your assessments.

I'm guessing here you're confused over what physiological insulin resistance is?
Eat a lot of carbs
Test
Post up your results, I'll help you with the readings if you need advice.
But you need to do the test on yourself first.

 

[Bluetit1802]

I thought I had it about 12 months ago so I did a lot of reading. Apparently people on low carb may experience it within a few months (or even a few weeks) of starting to low carb. It has nothing to do with being low carb and suddenly eating carbs again. (That may just be last meal effect). It is temporary - varies in length from person to person but normally only a month or two.

The symptoms seem to be raised base levels but normal post meal increases. If that is what I had, it went away again.

 

[AndBreathe]

I'm guessing here you're confused over what physiological insulin resistance is?
Eat a lot of carbs
Test
Post up your results, I'll help you with the readings if you need advice.
But you need to do the test on yourself first.

If I had an interest in eating a load of carbs I probably would have done that before now, but I don't. I'm content with my grasp of IR, but thanks for the offer anyway.

 

[douglas99]

If I had an interest in eating a load of carbs I probably would have done that before now, but I don't. I'm content with my grasp of IR, but thanks for the offer anyway.

So, no idea either way then?

 

[AndBreathe]

So, no idea either way then?

Please don't derail the thread. Thanks.

 

[Brunneria]

What is confusing me is why people think they can test whether they have physiological insulin resistance by eating large amounts of carbs and watching the blood glucose rise! That is nonsense and shows a basic misunderstanding of what PIR is, and how it affects us.

Most people with PIR notice that their morning fastings are higher, and that their lowest levels of the day are slightly higher than they used to be. Nothing huge. Nothing frightening. We are talking about a small drift over weeks or months. It doesn't rise indefinitely and it stabalises well within the non diabetic glucose range. It happens to some people in extended ketosis, whether they have diabetes or not. It has not been proven to be harmful. Since these people are in extended ketosis, they usually have excellently controlled blood glucose and excellent hbA1cs. A few days of eating higher carbs (enough to raise the individual out of ketosis) is enough to remove any physiological insulin resistance.

Here are a few links that explain it better than I can:
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/does-eating-low-carb-cause-insulin-resistance/
http://ketopia.com/physiological-insulin-resistance/ (Mainly for the attached reading list)

 

[Bluetit1802]

^^^^^^^^^^

That's what I was trying to say in my post at #12 but @Brunneria was far more eloquent.
What Brunneria says is exactly what I have read.

I was and still am very low carb and probably in ketosis although I have never checked this.
My FBG and pre-meal levels increased, not by a lot, but consistently increased. My post meal rises from before to after remained as previous. There were no changes to my routine. This lasted a few weeks and then just went back to how it had been before and hasn't returned.

 

[Indy51]

My experience is similar to @Bluetit1802's.

Despite low carb, I consistently had higher fasting BG in the prediabetic range though my other pre-meal levels throughout the day were fine. However, once I started an intermittent fasting regime, my fasting levels finally fell into line and are now usually in the normal range.

 

[robert72]

My background insulin levels have dropped since I have been LCHF. Can't say that that is indicative of insulin resistance.

 

[Bluetit1802]

My experience is similar to @Bluetit1802's.

Despite low carb, I consistently had higher fasting BG in the prediabetic range though my other pre-meal levels throughout the day were fine. However, once I started an intermittent fasting regime, my fasting levels finally fell into line and are now usually in the normal range.

Not quite the same as me. All my base line/pre-meal levels were higher by the same amount as my FBG (about half a mmol/l higher) and rarely higher than 6mmol/l. But worryingly consistent. Then suddenly, for no apparent reason, they all dropped again.