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Is it Low carbs or ketogenic to help neuropathy ?

B

Begonia

Well-Known Member
Messages
120
Location
Yorkshire
Type of diabetes
Prediabetes
Treatment type
I do not have diabetes
I've just joined the forum, but have read quite a lot of the posts about low carbs and how bringing blood sugar levels down to 'normal' range can help with complications such as neuropathy.
I've not been diagnosed as prediabetes, but my HBa1c is 39 (5.7%). Apparently in the USA this is just into the prediabetes range although not by the UK definition.
I am having trouble with my feet/legs (neurologist says 'slight neuropathy').
Rather than wait for things to get worse, I've started to adjust my diet. About 3 weeks ago I reduced carbs to about 75g - 100g per day. However, its not nearly as low as recommended in Dr Bernstein's book 'The Diabetes Solution'.
1) If I can get my blood sugar down to normal on a 75g-100g carbs diet will that be likely to help symptoms of neuropathy or do I need to go much lower carbs ?
2) Is there any scientific research/evidence that you need to be in ketosis in order to help symptoms ?
 
I don't think there is a specific number of carbs (keto or not) - it is more about eating few enough carbs for your body to reach 'normal' blood glucose levels - remember that Dr Bernstein is treating established diabetics, often on medication.

So for a Type 2 diabetic, that could mean they have to go keto to get the results Bernstein thinks they need.
But for a pre-diabetic like yourself, you may get the low numbers even though you are eating quite a bit more carbs.

Do you have a blood glucose meter? Unfortunately, it is the only way to know if you are reaching those 'normal' numbers on a daily basis, but I totally understand if you (as a prediabetic) are reluctant go to that amount of expense and the hassle of testing before and after meals. It gets old fast ;)
 
Hi @Begonia, I believe it really is about getting your levels to normal and eating to your meter. Everyone is different and at different stages on the diabetic journey.

Getting my carbs down to 100g a day got me a HBA1C of 35 after first diagnosed HBA1C of 40. I think I would have to go lower now to get the same result.

So find the level that works for you by testing BG daily . Please see @daisy1 post but aim for truly normal levels.

Also see the website diabetes101 with loads of links to scientific journals about levels and risks of complications.

There is a lot a help and support on this forum. Regular reading and posting has helped me.

Tagging @Juicetin another prediabetic with neuropathy.
 
Thank you so much for your swift reply. It makes a lot of sense. So the key is the blood sugar level rather than ketosis.
I have been testing my blood sugar for the last 2 weeks. Its a great incentive to think what you are about to put in your mouth when you know you will be taking a reading in an hour or so ! My fasting readings have been between 5.2 and 6.4. Mostly after meals they don't go above 7.0 but have had a couple up to 10 (big bowl of porridge). I'm aiming to get rid of anything above 6.5 and keep mostly below 5.5. Think I'll persevere at about 75g-100g for another couple of weeks fine tuning then adjust if necessary.
 
You need to find out why you have neuropathy. If it's not caused by high blood sugar I doubt if lowering blood sugar will help. There are lots of things that can cause neuropathy, apart from diabetes, lack of B12 one of the more common. Have you seen a neurologist?
 
Begonia said:
Thank you so much for your swift reply. It makes a lot of sense. So the key is the blood sugar level rather than ketosis.
I have been testing my blood sugar for the last 2 weeks. Its a great incentive to think what you are about to put in your mouth when you know you will be taking a reading in an hour or so ! My fasting readings have been between 5.2 and 6.4. Mostly after meals they don't go above 7.0 but have had a couple up to 10 (big bowl of porridge). I'm aiming to get rid of anything above 6.5 and keep mostly below 5.5. Think I'll persevere at about 75g-100g for another couple of weeks fine tuning then adjust if necessary.
Click to expand...

There's a good neuropathy thread here, which I'll try to find for you. It's aimed largely at people with frank diabetes, but it may be of interest to you.

Did your doctor confirm the neuropathy symptoms were linked to your blood sugar rather than anything else?
 
Totto said:
You need to find out why you have neuropathy. If it's not caused by high blood sugar I doubt if lowering blood sugar will help. There are lots of things that can cause neuropathy, apart from diabetes, lack of B12 one of the more common. Have you seen a neurologist?
Click to expand...
Yes I've seen GP (prescribed vit D due to deficiency) and then neurologist (said mild neuropathy... carry on with vit D and also agreed with my taking B12 which was on low side but within normal range ). Also sent for orthotics (shoe insoles).
My plan is to see if diet adjustment helps over next few months and if not go back to GP/neurologist.
 
k
azure said:
@Begonia Heres the thread:

http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/help-in-dealing-with-neuropathy.74653/

As you can see there, the key is keeping blood sugar below certain levels. Certain supplements are also recommended, but do check with your doctor first.
Click to expand...

Thanks for taking the time to find this thread for me, I'll take a look. I have been one round with the GP and neurologist but no definitive cause for symptoms found as yet. Neurologist basically said too early to send me for MRI.. see how you get on with supplements and orthotics (shoe insoles).
If no improvement in a few months I'll go back to neurologist.
 
There seems to be some confusion about ketosis - it is the process of using fat for energy - most people go into ketosis at some time each 24 hours, but as we tend to be eating and snacking or taking in energy drinks so frequently it is for shorter and shorter times.
If you are reducing carbs then you will be inclined to go into ketosis more frequently and for longer, which is why eating low carb lowers body fat.
Eating a low carb diet also lowers the levels of blood glucose a diabetic cannot cope with, and the different levels of not coping dictate the amount of carbs to eat - but there is no actual connection between the two processes so it works in a sort of sea saw fashion. They can be going on at the same time but it is two separate processes both as a result of low carb eating.
 
Hi Begonia, I am on the lower end of prediabetic and I have suffered neuropathy in my feet for around 12 months. It is in the form of a strange pressing sensation on the balls of both feet which is very uncomfortable, particularly at the end of a long day. I have also had tingling and electric shock like sensations but these have mostly subsided. I have seen several specialists, a highly commended podiatrist and a neurologist who have all conducted tests including nerve conduction studies. The long nerves are unaffected so in the absence of any other evident underlying causes I have been diagnosed with small fibre neuropathy which is "likely" caused by having higher than normal blood sugar for a long period of time. I say "likely" because there is no definitive way of proving it, neuropathy can be caused by many things, but in my case high blood sugar is seen as the likely culprit as I am otherwise a very fit 45 year old bloke. " Just unlucky" are the words they used to describe me.
I have seen a slight improvement in the condition by taking alpha lipoic acid and vitamin B1 and B12 supplements.
I am not a super low-carber, I am probably on around 80-100g a day, but I did go through a prolonged spell of under 50g a day and this made no difference to the neuropathy.
It has been a life-changer for me, I have had to give up hill walking and a number of sports already, one of which I have played for 25 years.
In answer to your specific questions - there is no guarantee that reducing your carbs to very low levels will cure neuropathy, it may do and it may delay it's progression. Similarly, there is no sure-fire guarantee that keeping good control of your BS will cure it, but it is undoubtedly the single best thing you can do.
 
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I was just thinking - nerve axions are surrounded by myelin, a fatty tube, which acts as an insulator - a very clever insulator.
It would be advisable to have fats in the diet and not take statins to lower cholesterol, in case it helps to restore normal feeling.
 
Juicetin said:
Hi Begonia, I am on the lower end of prediabetic and I have suffered neuropathy in my feet for around 12 months. It is in the form of a strange pressing sensation on the balls of both feet which is very uncomfortable, particularly at the end of a long day. I have also had tingling and electric shock like sensations but these have mostly subsided. I have seen several specialists, a highly commended podiatrist and a neurologist who have all conducted tests including nerve conduction studies. The long nerves are unaffected so in the absence of any other evident underlying causes I have been diagnosed with small fibre neuropathy which is "likely" caused by having higher than normal blood sugar for a long period of time. I say "likely" because there is no definitive way of proving it, neuropathy can be caused by many things, but in my case high blood sugar is seen as the likely culprit as I am otherwise a very fit 45 year old bloke. " Just unlucky" are the words the neurologist used to describe me.
I have seen a slight improvement in the condition by taking alpha lipoic acid and vitamin B1 and B12 supplements.
I am not a super low-carber, I am probably on around 80-100g a day, but I did go through a prolonged spell of under 50g a day and this made no difference to the neuropathy.
It has been a life-changer for me, I have had to give up hill walking and a number of sports already.
In answer to your specific questions - there is no guarantee that reducing your carbs to very low levels will cure neuropathy, but it may steady and delay it's progression. Similarly, there is no guarantee that keeping good control of your BS will cure it, but it is undoubtedly the single best thing you can do.
Click to expand...
Hi Juicetin,
Thanks for your post. Sorry to hear that you have had to give up some of your sports. Sounds like a low carb diet is helpful to you but that going to very low carbs was no better... is that correct ?
I have read up the work on alpha lipoic acid done mainly in Germany. It looks like the most promising along with Benfotiamine and B12.

I have had feet/leg symptoms for about 9 months. Started with cold feet and then progressed to pain when walking, mainly from the heels. I have a very active job, working in a plant nursery where I am on my feet for several hours a day. Symptoms are much worse during and after long day standing. Previously I could be on my feet as long as I wanted.
I'll see how things go with low carb diet and supplements for a couple of months then back to neurologist if no improvement.
 
Begonia said:
Hi Juicetin,
Thanks for your post. Sorry to hear that you have had to give up some of your sports. Sounds like a low carb diet is helpful to you but that going to very low carbs was no better... is that correct ?
I have read up the work on alpha lipoic acid done mainly in Germany. It looks like the most promising along with Benfotiamine and B12.

I have had feet/leg symptoms for about 9 months. Started with cold feet and then progressed to pain when walking, mainly from the heels. I have a very active job, working in a plant nursery where I am on my feet for several hours a day. Symptoms are much worse during and after long day standing. Previously I could be on my feet as long as I wanted.
I'll see how things go with low carb diet and supplements for a couple of months then back to neurologist if no improvement.
Click to expand...
Sounds like you're very similar to me. I can start the day with my feet not too bad but by mid-afternoon they are killing me. Last Friday night I was out with friends in a busy bar and spent 2 hours standing like a pelican on one leg!
Ultra low carb made no difference to my condition.
I am taking ALA, Benfotiamine and methylcobalamin. They really helped at first but I fear their effect is wearing off. I am under no illusions how bad this condition could progress to, it frightens me too much, taking each day at a time etc. The biggest problem, and the cause of depression and anxiety for me , is that its 24/7, round the clock, there is no respite at any time.
 
I have Prediabetic fasting glucose and normal hba1c at 38 last time it was checked in June.

I have suffered neuropathy in my arms and fingers on and off for several years and switching to LCHF has had a remarkable effect on symptoms from day one. I know if I'm fasting high as soon as I wake up as the symptoms are there....

So, LCHF can make a difference in some circumstances.

It has had a negligible effect on my fasting numbers so far but the 2 stone plus weight loss as a result has normalised my BP for the first time in twenty years without meds and taken my BMI from 25 to 21.

I feel much better for it.
 
Thank you for creating this thread.
I never realised prediabetes sufferers get neuropathy. So early on in the diabetic journey?
I always thought to suffer with neuropathy its from months of high bgs?
I didn't realise prediabetics already suffered with high bgs. So their hba1c averages out the highs and lows to state prediabetes?
 
ickihun said:
Thank you for creating this thread.
I never realised prediabetes sufferers get neuropathy. So early on in the diabetic journey?
I always thought to suffer with neuropathy its from months of high bgs?
I didn't realise prediabetics already suffered with high bgs. So their hba1c averages out the highs and lows to state prediabetes?
Click to expand...
I always describe it as T2 lite

Symptoms are no different or can be non existent for some.
 
Begonia said:
Hi Juicetin,
Thanks for your post. Sorry to hear that you have had to give up some of your sports. Sounds like a low carb diet is helpful to you but that going to very low carbs was no better... is that correct ?
I have read up the work on alpha lipoic acid done mainly in Germany. It looks like the most promising along with Benfotiamine and B12.

I have had feet/leg symptoms for about 9 months. Started with cold feet and then progressed to pain when walking, mainly from the heels. I have a very active job, working in a plant nursery where I am on my feet for several hours a day. Symptoms are much worse during and after long day standing. Previously I could be on my feet as long as I wanted.
I'll see how things go with low carb diet and supplements for a couple of months then back to neurologist if no improvement.
Click to expand...
Juicetin said:
Sounds like you're very similar to me. I can start the day with my feet not too bad but by mid-afternoon they are killing me. Last Friday night I was out with friends in a busy bar and spent 2 hours standing like a pelican on one leg!
Ultra low carb made no difference to my condition.
I am taking ALA, Benfotiamine and methylcobalamin. They really helped at first but I fear their effect is wearing off. I am under no illusions how bad this condition could progress to, it frightens me too much, taking each day at a time etc. The biggest problem, and the cause of depression and anxiety for me , is that its 24/7, round the clock, there is no respite at any time.
Click to expand...
Are you taking the 600mg ALA they used in the trials and if so do you take it in one dose or split (I have read different opinions on this).
 
Begonia said:
Are you taking the 600mg ALA they used in the trials and if so do you take it in one dose or split (I have read different opinions on this).
Click to expand...
I take 600mg in the morning as one tablet. I have tried taking more but it made no difference. Most you buy will be a 50/50 mix of the superior R-ALA and the less effective S-ALA. But 600mg of a good quality mix will still give you 300mg of R-ALA (and the quality is the same as buying pure R-ALA, I have checked with manufacturers).
 
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