Dr Jason Fung on T2 Diabetes and Drugs

[douglas99]

Not convinced as too many people go back to their old ways…… Hence I think controlled carbs (say under 100g) should be the first angle of attract getting people eating in a way they will be happy with for the rest of their life’s. Then and only then use intermittent fasting or Newcashle Diet.

Asking people to do something that lots of people fail at is a bad option, but even if people fail to get down to low carb levels they are very likely to have learned to avoid the worse foods.

Not convinced at too many people go back to their old ways, and eat carbs.
Far better to reverse it, and not be limited to LCHF forever.

 

[douglas99]

I think it depends also on why people want to be meds free. I wanted to be meds-free, so that I'm not tethered to a pharmacy, however often I would have to replenish any medication.

Of course, not one of us knows how long we might be able to maintain our status quo, but if it is important enough to the individual and they weigh up the risks v benefits, then they are making an informed decision. The decision made may just not be uniform across all who make it for themselves.

Well, I'm about 6 months in front on supply of Metformin.
And as it's accumulative, there's no great stress in missing a few.
And, as I've reversed T2, for me personally, it doesn't actually make a great difference.
But that's me, and doesn't apply to anyone else.
My Status Quo is a bit "Rockin all over the World", so different to the "Living On An Island"

 

[ringi]

Not convinced at too many people go back to their old ways, and eat carbs.
Far better to reverse it, and not be limited to LCHF forever.

But it is only reversed until someone goes back to their old ways of eating..... Even on basic LCHF most people can go back to having carbs often, just not all the time. The problem is when people eat to their meters so never burn off enough fat by being "just enough low carb to get a good reading".

PS, does anyone want to buy our old bread maker, the bread it makes is so nice that you will get Type2........

 

[Chook]

PS, does anyone want to buy our old bread maker, the bread it makes is so nice that you will get Type2........

I think I'll pass on that offer....

 

[Art Of Flowers]

The key point is that Type 2 is caused by too much insulin in the body, so taking drugs to increase insulin or by injecting insulin you are making things worse, not better. Since 90% of type 2 diabetics are either overweight or obese, any increase in insulin which causes further weight gain can result in a higher risk of long term complications and shorter life expectancy.

 

[CherryAA]

I have a friend, who is gradually weaning himself off insulin via low carbing.

In discussion with him , it seems that having been diagnosed in 1999 and prescribed glycazide? and then metformin he was put on insulin because in 2003 his NHS doctor found ketones in his blood ( measuring around 5 as he recalls i.e. definitely single digits ) he also told me he had been fasting at the time in a bid to lose weight but the doctor had told him insulin was urgently needed because of the ketosis.

This week he decided to stop the insulin altogether for a a couple of days and see what happened.

He made himself a low carb lunch today - which was similar to the previous low carb lunches he has been eating all summer. I have been shaking my head at the size of his meals, but there is only so much one can say. ( seven chicken drumsticks for example !)

He had still been taking overnight insulin but no longer the pre meal dosage - ( I have myself been getting concerned that his likelihood of a hypo was getting very high with continuing with any insulin - though that is not the point here) .

Yesterday for the first time he stopped the overnight insulin as well.

The point I am posting about is this - He had made himself a lunch consisting of a 3 egg omelette, 2 small tins of mackerel in oil and a large portion of buttered broccoli and cauliflower. I looked rather askance as he was making it at the huge volume of food involved. He assured me that this was about the amount he needed to keep going during an average lunch in order to stop the hunger pangs in the afternoon. This is what he has been eating at this time of day for weeks.

Today he ate about 25% of the food, then sat back in total astonishment saying " I can't eat anymore" - what the hell is happening to me - yesterday I was ravenous. His blood sugars - which whilst on insulin veer around 8-10, have been sitting at 6-7 all day with no insulin.

I took the opportunity to explain portion control further and then divided the remaining meal into three new meals - each a similar size to the one that just satiated him.

In his own mind he had suddenly become a transformed person. If his experience is anything to go by, then actually there is no wonder that insulin causes weight gain - I had hitherto assumed that this was via some rather mysterious process . In practice for him, injecting insulin makes him totally ravenous leading to big blood sugar rises no matter what type of diet simply becaue of the volume, then leading to lows through overdosing to deal with the high - ad infinitum.

I am certainly coming round to the view that T2's should definitely be being tested for levels of circulating insulin before yet more of it is injected into them.

 

[Mbaker]

I would say that Doctors have a duty to warn of the potential side effects of Metformin, particularly the potential for Kidney damage.

I would also add that extreme exercise transformed me to the point of some people not recognising me, if you can sustain this as I did 10 kg comes off in a few weeks.

 

[CherryAA]

Rapid weight loss on a very low calorie diet (Newcastle Diet) is by far the best option for "middle fat"

I don't think it matters which type of diet one chooses, be it LCHF, VLC, or fasting , if you can stick with it and you can bring down your weight, then the chances are you will give your pancreas the chance to function properly again eventually.

My own system seems to be happily saying - you are pretty "normal" at the moment and I've never been near the Newcastle Diet, instead I lost 27K through LCHF at 30 g per day.

For all of us there is a tendency to assume what worked best for us will do so for everyone else- the critical point seems to me to get rid of the carbs by whatever means you choose and aim for a significant calorie deficit at the same time. the two ni combination will most probably bring down, weight, hba1C and improve insulin resistance.

 

[Mbaker]

This is why I was so disappointed to be refused a C-Peptide test by both GP and diabetic specialist who did however order a Gad test.

I think all diabetics at least every other HbA1c should get a full blood test as well, otherwise how will one know if there are nutrient deficiencies.

 

[douglas99]

I don't think it matters which type of diet one chooses, be it LCHF, VLC, or fasting , if you can stick with it and you can bring down your weight, then the chances are you will give your pancreas the chance to function properly again eventually.

My own system seems to be happily saying - you are pretty "normal" at the moment and I've never been near the Newcastle Diet, instead I lost 27K through LCHF at 30 g per day.

For all of us there is a tendency to assume what worked best for us will do so for everyone else- the critical point seems to me to get rid of the carbs by whatever means you choose and aim for a significant calorie deficit at the same time. the two ni combination will most probably bring down, weight, hba1C and improve insulin resistance.

I think it matters on what you eat after that period though, or what you can eat after.

 

[CherryAA]

Sorry, just bought a new one myself.
But I had a £1.99 Big Mac and Fries, and some Ice Cream this afternoon, so I guess it's all doom and gloom for me?

Whilst is lovely to be able to " indulge " now and again and I myself did precisely that yesterday with a large sausage roll and a vendor beefburger, I do think that you might be kidding yourself and everyone else if you think that because your systems are all functioning well now, and you " reversed your diabetes " that means it's ok to go back to what you were doing before including eating a lot of junk food. - sure as a treat now and again - but no longer a way of life

Im my view the Newcastle diet probably worked for you because it created a severe calorie deficit and was by definition a low carb diet. The LCHF diet has done the same for me ( I am 10 months in ) . No doubt the fasting process will do it for others.

For ALL of us, if we eat too much put on weight and increase our junk food limits then we are all likely to " catch diabetes" again - just like first time round. Being " cured "in the middle is nice but not sufficient to last forever. .

 

[ringi]

I would say that Doctors have a duty to warn of the potential side effects of Metformin, particularly the potential for Kidney damage.

I know my doctor does the Kidney function blood test every year anyway and they show no issue, hence I don't think there is a real risk to my Kidney from Metformin. But I think everyone on Metformin should have a full set of bloods done each year.

 

[CherryAA]

I think it matters on what you eat after that period though, or what you can eat after.

Well on the evidence at the moment -it seems I can do pretty much what you can, which I recall is something you challenged me about a while ago. Given I'm still technically obese, I think we should all give thanks that there appear to be myriad ways to tackle this problem and each of them seem to work for some. For all of them the key is can you actually comply with that diet ? if you can it will probably work for you.

 

[Brunneria]

Several posts have been deleted from this thread for being off topic and derailing.

Please be aware that further attempts to derail the thread will lead to further deletions.

 

[douglas99]

Whilst is lovely to be able to " indulge " now and again and I myself did precisely that yesterday with a large sausage roll and a vendor beefburger, I do think that you might be kidding yourself and everyone else if you think that because your systems are all functioning well now, and you " reversed your diabetes " that means it's ok to go back to what you were doing before including eating a lot of junk food. - sure as a treat now and again - but no longer a way of life

Im my view the Newcastle diet probably worked for you because it created a severe calorie deficit and was by definition a low carb diet. The LCHF diet has done the same for me ( I am 10 months in ) . No doubt the fasting process will do it for others.

For ALL of us, if we eat too much put on weight and increase our junk food limits then we are all likely to " catch diabetes" again - just like first time round. Being " cured "in the middle is nice but not sufficient to last forever. .

Very true.
I would have treated that as a snack previously.

 

[Brunneria]

Once again, posts have been deleted from this thread for breaking the forum rules (there is a link to the forum rules in my signature, if anyone would like to remind themselves of the Forum Ethos).

 

[CherryAA]

chill pill in order lets just celebrate there is something so positive to discuss - i.ee with or without metformin, there are lots of examples of people managign to conquer this disease, AND on the other side find that life does not have to be quite so constrained for ever IF you can achieve the first bit !
hallelujah

 

[Mbaker]

Not convinced at too many people go back to their old ways, and eat carbs.
Far better to reverse it, and not be limited to LCHF forever.

I do have a different opinion on this, as LCHF is not limiting, for me it is liberating. Yesterday my daughter made a super creamy panacotta using Xylitol, it was far too sweet for me after a small mouthful, this would be the case for mainstream varb

Now that I have educated myself about the food groups, mentally I cannot face regular off the shelf carbs, such as biscuits and bread. As I am trying to get a 6 pack again I know I would have to work even harder. Finally for me I am comfortably achieving 1 meal a day at least 3 times a

I know my doctor does the Kidney function blood test every year anyway and they show no issue, hence I don't think there is a real risk to my Kidney from Metformin. But I think everyone on Metformin should have a full set of bloods done each year.

I was furious, my eGFR count went down on Metformin and immediately back up without it; for something that could be "end-of-life" full disclosure I think is vital. All I was told was that Metformin does not induce a Hypo.

 

[ickihun]

I was lucky, but I don't normally react to meds too badly.
But I do wonder, how long do people give it?
It took me over a year to reverse my diabetes, and it was a major disruption to my life.
A year well spent though.
As to metformin, can you take metformin and Imogen?
Can you spend a month getting accustomed to it?
(not easy, but it's a month against a life)
Diabetes isn't "pop a pill and carry on", it's a life changer.

I take metformin and lansoprazol but more for gerd symptoms. I know of those who have far worse stomach problem who can tolerate metformin. Maybe medics could think it through more.
I cannot tolerate all other meds except insulin but my friend who had bariatric surgery 2yrs ago said you start tolerating things you couldnt and vice versa. Foods especially.

I feel metformin isn't given the praise it deserves. No one will be able to convince me that metformin isn't a wonder drug for infertility due to obesity and pcos.
I spoke to a few expecting mothers whilst having my 2 children and many have fallen whilst taking metformin. Maybe the nhs are panicking as big women are carrying babies, more than before. They need stronger, bigger bed in the delivery suites.
I'm not unsympathetic to the cost of maternity on the nhs mind you.
Next we'll be shamed into not using maternity as its costing nhs too much money.

The look on the 2 consultants faces at my first baby delivery was priceless. They knew how many thousands I'd spent on ivf and other private fertility treatment in 10yrs. My baby was delivered perfectly healthy without a c-section too.
Thankyou Metformin!

 

[Mbaker]

Not convinced as too many people go back to their old ways…… Hence I think controlled carbs (say under 100g) should be the first angle of attract getting people eating in a way they will be happy with for the rest of their life’s. Then and only then use intermittent fasting or Newcashle Diet.

Asking people to do something that lots of people fail at is a bad option, but even if people fail to get down to low carb levels they are very likely to have learned to avoid the worse foods.

I think you are both right. With what I know now, I would immediately do the Newcastle Diet (using real food, no satchets), I would then maintain on LCHF with exercise. I think it depends where you are in your journey; as I had never dieted a low cal diet would most likely have got me to where I needed to be initially, killing myself with over exercising I think was a harder root.