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Fatty liver and fast weight loss.

Sorry I had too many tabs open in my browser and it crashed, I lost the tab and could not recover. It was an archived report and was a full report showing test method etc. It started with 30 participants, but one was excluded after the first week for non compliance of the diet.
It was not the original 2011 report, that only had 11 subjects. It is not the latest 2017 report either, but an interim one. I think this press release refers to it, but i cannot find the copy report I was reading just now.
http://www.ncl.ac.uk/press/news/2016/03/profroytaylordiabetesresearch/

I see the 2017 report was published by a different dept - Magnetic Resonance Centre, so this may be the one you were talking about. I think this study has yet to report any findings as it appears to still be in progress.

Edit to add here is the summary published 2016
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27002059

Prof Taylor has done 2 studies so far Counterpoint 2011 and Counterbalance 2016 (I'm guessing those are publication dates) at least that's what he told me when I asked.
They are currently doing DiRECT which is the new one with over 300 participants which has been running for one year. Results should be published soon.
 
Dr Ted Naiman seems to have a contrary view. He feels that some to lose body fat have to cut down their intake of fat as well as carbs and need to increase their protein intake to keep muscle! regards. Derek
Yes kind of but he goes for the body beautiful effect (have you seen him?) rather than the controlling Type 2 and insulin resistance but looking ordinary..
 
ISTR that at least one of Prof Taylor's video presentations has slides explaining the MRI technology techniques they used. The whole study is associated with that department of Newcastle Uni as well, from memory.

There are a few of his longer video presentations to choose from, though I can't recall which video specifically covers it:

http://www.fend-lectures.org/index.php?menu=view&id=94
https://campus.recap.ncl.ac.uk/Panopto/Pages/Viewer.aspx?id=c3bef819-e5f4-4a55-876f-0a23436988ed

The overview page also states:
Study volunteers in the Newcastle area will also undergo detailed magnetic resonance investigations coupled with metabolic tests to examine further the basic mechanisms which bring about the return to normal blood glucose control. Additionally, detailed psychological assessments will be carried out to understand the response of individuals to this management approach and identify factors which effect adherence.

That page also has a downloadable PDF of the study protocol.

http://www.ncl.ac.uk/magres/research/diabetes/reversal/#overview
 
Yes kind of but he goes for the body beautiful effect (have you seen him?) rather than the controlling Type 2 and insulin resistance but looking ordinary..
While I agree re his emphasis on exercise and 'body beautiful', he's also a firm believer in the protein leveraging hypothesis and he's not the only one. There's a good explanation of the effect in a recent blogpost by Amy Berger of Tuit Nutrition on Designs for Health:

http://blog.designsforhealth.com/blog/the-protein-leverage-hypothesis

She's also written another recent post on why people might want/need to reduce fat on a keto diet:
http://www.tuitnutrition.com/2017/08/how-to-cut-fat-on-keto.html
 
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ISTR that at least one of Prof Taylor's video presentations has slides explaining the MRI technology techniques they used. The whole study is associated with that department of Newcastle Uni as well, from memory.

There are a few of his longer video presentations to choose from, though I can't recall which video specifically covers it:

http://www.fend-lectures.org/index.php?menu=view&id=94
https://campus.recap.ncl.ac.uk/Panopto/Pages/Viewer.aspx?id=c3bef819-e5f4-4a55-876f-0a23436988ed

The overview page also states:
Study volunteers in the Newcastle area will also undergo detailed magnetic resonance investigations coupled with metabolic tests to examine further the basic mechanisms which bring about the return to normal blood glucose control. Additionally, detailed psychological assessments will be carried out to understand the response of individuals to this management approach and identify factors which effect adherence.

That page also has a downloadable PDF of the study protocol.

http://www.ncl.ac.uk/magres/research/diabetes/reversal/#overview
This study has yet to report, so is a pipe dream list of protocols at present. When it draws to a conclusion, then the report should be of great interest to many of us here, and we wait in eager anticipation. Till then we cannot draw any conclusions.
 
This study has yet to report, so is a pipe dream list of protocols at present. When it draws to a conclusion, then the report should be of great interest to many of us here, and we wait in eager anticipation. Till then we cannot draw any conclusions.
Well, the video I recall seeing (again, wish I could remember exactly which one it was) was some time ago and he was reporting on the trial/s that had already taken place. There were MRI images with shaded colours and an explanation of how the MRI technicians determined exactly how much fat was lost from both liver and pancreas.
 
Well, the video I recall seeing (again, wish I could remember exactly which one it was) was some time ago and he was reporting on the trial/s that had already taken place. There were MRI images with shaded colours and an explanation of how the MRI technicians determined exactly how much fat was lost from both liver and pancreas.
Was he using his own trial data, or just general MRI scans used to demonstrate the principles of what they expect to see ? This is important. The trial only got funding a month or so ago, so it is unlikely to be showing results from the current trial, which would also have possible confidentiality issues with early release? I have no problem with a discussion on how an MRI can show fat reduction, but I would hesitate to take it as a Slam Dunk yes it works conclusion at this stage. My ultrasound showed my prostate was still walnut sized, and that one I believed, but I still had to go through the finger up the bum to satisfy the GP. (I know, TMI)

As I have posted, the 2016 trial DOES NOT use MRI scanning at all. The current trial does.

Edit to Correct: Since posting this, I retract the last comment since it is incorrect.
 
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Was he using his own trial data, or just general MRI scans used to demonstrate the principles of what they expect to see ? This is important. The trial only got funding a month or so ago, so it is unlikely to be showing results from the current trial, which would also have possible confidentiality issues with early release? I have no problem with a discussion on how an MRI can show fat reduction, but I would hesitate to take it as a Slam Dunk yes it works conclusion at this stage. My ultrasound showed my prostate was still walnut sized, and that one I believed, but I still had to go through the finger up the bum to satisfy the GP. (I know, TMI)
If I have time, I'll try and review the video. I seem to also recall him raving about the cleverness of the technicians in the Newcastle Uni Magnetic Resonance Unit. I think it was more than theoretical, but my recall may be wrong of course.
 
If I have time, I'll try and review the video. I seem to also recall him raving about the cleverness of the technicians in the Newcastle Uni Magnetic Resonance Unit. I think it was more than theoretical, but my recall may be wrong of course.
Measuring NAFLD is something they already use the MRI for on a daily basis, so yes they know their onions. What is new and excititng is applying this technique to observing the results to a particular diet plan to verify it reduces a fatty liver.

No you are not wrong. MRI is used to confirm fstty liver on a regular basis, so the video is correct in showing what they intend to achieve, The video was probably produced to support their application for funding.
 
The video was probably produced to support their application for funding.
Pretty sure the first is a lecture given at a diabetes conference in Europe. I think the second one was a lecture (not sure who the audience was) at the University. He was reporting on the results of the earlier trial/s.
 
Measuring NAFLD is something they already use the MRI for on a daily basis, so yes they know their onions. What is new and excititng is applying this technique to observing the results to a particular diet plan to verify it reduces a fatty liver.

No you are not wrong. MRI is used to confirm fstty liver on a regular basis, so the video is correct in showing what they intend to achieve, The video was probably produced to support their application for funding.
OK, the first lecture is to the FEND conference, Berlin, 28 September 2012. He was reporting on the results of the Counterpoint study. Following are slides he used to explain the MRI work. I forgot that I'd saved a few slides from another Youtube lecture, can't recall which one it was:

2wfn7ye.jpg


Another slide says that 30% of the liver fat is lost by the end of Week 1.

6ep4js.jpg
 
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While I agree re his emphasis on exercise and 'body beautiful', he's also a firm believer in the protein leveraging hypothesis and he's not the only one. There's a good explanation of the effect in a recent blogpost by Amy Berger of Tuit Nutrition on Designs for Health:

http://blog.designsforhealth.com/blog/the-protein-leverage-hypothesis

She's also written another recent post on why people might want/need to reduce fat on a keto diet:
http://www.tuitnutrition.com/2017/08/how-to-cut-fat-on-keto.html

I think this may be the next schism in keto world..
There will be the ketogains lot who say why have fatty coffee when you have body fat and then the keto dudes who look at how much energy can be released from body fat per day (and there appears to be a max). Obviously you need to be in a fat burning mode before you can even start using body fat which is hard to achieve when eating carbs so at the start you need to eat fats . Also if you can only get certain amount of energy from your body then by not eating more fat you will go into metabolism slow down mode because you aren't getting enough energy. As always you pays yer money....
I found the Jason Wittrock experiment quite telling - he ate 4000 cal per day of mostly fat for 21 days - lost a few pounds and reduced his body fat % a bit. He worked out less than usual because he was making his daily vlog as well as doing his coaching. Ok he's a pro body builder so hardly typical but interesting all the same.
 
Ok he's a pro body builder so hardly typical
This is one of the reasons I tend to avoid the "bro science" blogs etc. for the most part. Nothing they espouse will likely apply to a 65 year old female with Type 2 diabetes who is never gonna "lift heavy". Just not gonna happen :D

I'm a firm believer in the protein leveraging hypothesis though - I'm pretty sure I'd been undereating protein for years. When I went Paleo and made protein the focus of my meals, I started getting muscles in places I never knew about before and I wasn't doing a whole lot of exercise either. And I haven't lost any lean mass (at least not judging by eye alone) since I started IF either.
 
I downloaded the whole article at http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/39/5/808.full-text.pdf

by regular clicking on the unlock symbol on the right side of the page beyond the document
Thank you for achieving this. It seems that the report I discovered was an interim , possibly draft, that was in a different archive, I suspect it was a 2015 release. The section on Body Composition and triglycerides was smaller and did not reference the Magnetic Resonance Centre (ref #1) Your copy certainly has more in depth analysis that clearly does use MRI data properly.

I have to study the new info but on first glance it does seem to support the claim being made that diet alone can reduce IR and reduce a fatty liver. The improvement in First stage insulin response also supports the recent claims being made that a fatty liver is directly associated with worsening IR, so that reducing the fatty liver will lead to improvement in diabetes control - which is what the team set out to do.

I need to get my head around the information on VLDL and consequences from high fatty acids in the bloodstream, in light of the LCHF diet guidelines. This is a proper scientific investigation and I feel happy with their protocol. The report I previously looked at was certainly incomplete.

@DCUKMod I suspect this should be a new topic since it is deviating from the OP.
 
Prof Taylor's new MRI methods let him measure the fat in the organ's cells, the standard method shows the fat around the organs and the size of the organs. He was most interested in the diet's effect on the panaceas as it was already well known that such a diet would remove the fat from the liver.
 
Thank you for achieving this. It seems that the report I discovered was an interim , possibly draft, that was in a different archive, I suspect it was a 2015 release. The section on Body Composition and triglycerides was smaller and did not reference the Magnetic Resonance Centre (ref #1) Your copy certainly has more in depth analysis that clearly does use MRI data properly.

I have to study the new info but on first glance it does seem to support the claim being made that diet alone can reduce IR and reduce a fatty liver. The improvement in First stage insulin response also supports the recent claims being made that a fatty liver is directly associated with worsening IR, so that reducing the fatty liver will lead to improvement in diabetes control - which is what the team set out to do.

I need to get my head around the information on VLDL and consequences from high fatty acids in the bloodstream, in light of the LCHF diet guidelines. This is a proper scientific investigation and I feel happy with their protocol. The report I previously looked at was certainly incomplete.

@DCUKMod I suspect this should be a new topic since it is deviating from the OP.

If you believe this warrants wider discussion, feel free to create it, just like any other topic..
 
Yes kind of but he goes for the body beautiful effect (have you seen him?) rather than the controlling Type 2 and insulin resistance but looking ordinary..
Yes but if one has lost a lot of weight including muscle more fat when you eat a lot is not the answer. It looks as if I'll exercise when I can and eat more protein and less fat to build glucose absorbing muscle. At my age I'll not get much muscle but at present I'm just the shadow of the guy I used to be. Derek
 
Yes but if one has lost a lot of weight including muscle more fat when you eat a lot is not the answer. It looks as if I'll exercise when I can and eat more protein and less fat to build glucose absorbing muscle. At my age I'll not get much muscle but at present I'm just the shadow of the guy I used to be. Derek

Have a look at High Intensity Interval Training for max return on your effort.

(apologies to all for the minor derailment!)
 
Couple of things.:)

Firstly I thought Prof. Taylor was part of the MRI department at Newcastle so assumed that he would be using the technology wherever possible.

Secondly, if the liver can reduce so dramatically in size over 8 weeks of very low calorie diet, what is it losing if not fat? As far as I can understand it the number of fat cells may not change dramatically but fat cells can fill up or empty.
 
Couple of things.:)

Firstly I thought Prof. Taylor was part of the MRI department at Newcastle so assumed that he would be using the technology wherever possible.

Secondly, if the liver can reduce so dramatically in size over 8 weeks of very low calorie diet, what is it losing if not fat? As far as I can understand it the number of fat cells may not change dramatically but fat cells can fill up or empty.
I agree with your second point. My research this year also showed that the adipocytes used to store the lipid fat are created as required by reprogramming stem cells to turn them into fat storage types, but once created they are effectively impossible to remove again, and as you say can only be filled or emptied. This is why diets can reduce weight, but leave the love handles behind, leading to liposuction or surgery to get rid of the folds of flesh (TMI?). Thus, the evidence in the [Newcastle Diet] study report that the fat did not return in the 6 months follow on maintenance stage is significant since these fat cells did not fill up again on the return to 'normal diet'
 
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