Interesting reading - gp handbook info re diabetes

ickihun

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I'm astonished at the speed and blase nature of the insulin recommendations 7.5% + hba1C and bang = > insulin

Given how quickly that can be brought down by skipping carbs, its amazing that the advice doesn't even use the word carbohydrate anywhere. No wonder people end up in a state !
Low carbs doesn't resolve all of a high hba1c for everyone. Just some and there are still people out there been diabetic without knowing. Years of untreated high bgs can not always be reversed with less carbs. Insulin will always be needed in the interim to get hba1c down and time to educate that newly diagnosed person. Posters are the lucky ones. Not all newly diagnosed are on-line or confident enough to post. I wish it was a simple as low carb and high bgs go away without medication.
I will try my hardest to go no meds after bariatric surgery on very low calories but there is no guarantees. I've been low carb for about a year now but still not on no meds or close.
Metformin is more of a benefit than just for diabetes support for me.
Diabetes isnt my only health problem.
Maybe that's what makes the difference, for me.
 
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ickihun

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But come on that's what doctors do.. give out pills like smarties...
Not my gp. Last time I was ill I received advice not pills. Nor the time before either. I have meds to keep me alive, only. They get reduced if need be or increased if no other solution.
We collectively stopped cardiologists statins due to side affects worse than prevention. My figures are still good without.
I'll get another calcium scan in 4yrs time to see what increase of atherosclerosis I will have prevented on weight loss and good diabetes control. Hopefully.
 
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ringi

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Chook - My medical records record my status as "‘Diabetes resolved", and I have been called for retinal screening in each of the 3 years since the change was made.

I'm not challenging what you wrote, just saying that in my personal instances it wasn't so.

The "Diabetes resolved" is likely to stop retinal screening etc if you ever change GPs, I expect that at the time your record was changed two computers did not speak to each other.... There is an on going issue with getting these codes sorted out.

"Diabetes resolved" should only be used if the "Diabetes" turns out to have been due to something like an infection or lab error.
 

ringi

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Metformin - from how I read it, this is beneficial for the heart COMPARED WITH other diabetes drugs. This could mean it is the other drugs causing heart problems whereas Metformin doesn't, rather than Metformin being beneficial in itself.

There was a large study in the USA where half the people were given Metformin and diet advice, and the other half "fake pills" and diet advice. (No other diabetes drug being taken.) The people who were given Metformin had a 40% lower risk of heart problems. As this was a "double blind" study the results should be able to be trusted.

However, as it was "standard diet advice" not "low carb" I would like to see the research repeated.......
 
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ickihun

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There was a large study in the USA where half the people were given Metformin and diet advice, and the other half "fake pills" and diet advice. (No other diabetes drug being taken.) The people who were given Metformin had a 40% lower risk of heart problems. As this was a "double blind" study the results should be able to be trusted.

However, as it was "standard diet advice" not "low carb" I would like to see the research repeated.......
I've used metformin for nearly 20yrs on it's own and now with insulin therapy. My calcium score was 19 last yr and discharged with chest pains after angiogram showed only mild atheroscleriosis. :) most plaque in lad artery of heart. Statins and exercise advised. I can do neither other than painful walking.
 

Prem51

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According to both the 2013 and 2016 handbooks T2 should only be diagnosed after TWO test results of 48 or higher, two weeks apart. I was diagnosed as T2 after one test result of 49. At the next test, after 12 weeks, I was at 44. So according to these guidelines I should not have been diagnosed as T2? Mind you, I probably would still have been at 48 or higher if I had been tested 2 weeks after the first HbA1c.
 

CherryAA

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Low carbs doesn't resolve all of a high hba1c for everyone. Just some and there are still people out there been diabetic without knowing. Years of untreated high bgs can not always be reversed with less carbs. Insulin will always be needed in the interim to get hba1c down and time to educate that newly diagnosed person. Posters are the lucky ones. Not all newly diagnosed are on-line or confident enough to post. I wish it was a simple as low carb and high bgs go away without medication.
I will try my hardest to go no meds after bariatric surgery on very low calories but there is no guarantees. I've been low carb for about a year now but still not on no meds or close.
Metformin is more of a benefit than just for diabetes support for me.
Diabetes isnt my only health problem.
Maybe that's what makes the difference, for me.

I understand your point completely, however no doctor, nor patient can know if diet alone "could work" unless given the chance to try. Yes its true that posters are the lucky ones - but that is because the NHS advice does NOTHING to spell out how to resolve anything.

The handbook says nothing at all about what " lifestyle changes" actually means to anyone. From reports on here its clear that for very many people lifestyle changes are either enough or a very significant contributor to resolving/ reducing the problem. If a patient reports is diagnosed with hba1C above 7.5 and the NHS says that insulin is an appropriate treatment regime day 1 (or the other less powerful drugs in less extreme cases ) - then where that regime is used, those patients never got the chance to find out . In my own case my own doctor wanted to do precisely that.

The doctor I met last week said that he would put all such patients on insulin immediately because of how critical it was to bring blood sugar down and then think later about trying to encourage lifestyle changes. Of course some people will report in with sky high actual blood sugars and maybe ketoacidosis, and in those cases of course drugs must be used. For very many of us that is not the position we are in on diagnosis.

By issuing the prescription, or injecting the insulin, the doctor is sending the message " I CAN FIX YOU " you don't need to do anything. Anything he says thereafter will be coloured by that.

On the day of diagnosis, you are in shock and probably for the first time in your life, truly fundamentally afraid that your body is going to give up on you. To me that is the day when if someone is given a very clear message - "Stop eating processed foods, sugar and starchy carbohydrates and start walking TODAY - come back in 30 days and we will look again . I will be able to tell from a new set of blood tests if you did it or not. Then we can discuss the way forward " then that is most likely to result in the patient actually trying to make the lifestyle change .

By introducing drugs as an option day 1 - we send the message that this is fixable without fundamental change. All the evidence shows its not actually fixable with drugs, just that drugs will help to varying degrees depending on the extent of the underlying damage. There are still reports showing patients who have been on insulin for years, being able to come off it with the assistance of LCHF and exercise - those patients probably never needed it in the first place.

People may have been living with it for years ( as I was - at least three) . My blood sugars came down into a more normal range within 10 days with no medication - within 30 I knew I was on the right track, as do many other new people on here.

I recognise entirely that for some people medication is fundamental for T2 diagnosis however I question completely the current treatment protocol and time line.
 

Bluetit1802

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According to both the 2013 and 2016 handbooks T2 should only be diagnosed after TWO test results of 48 or higher, two weeks apart. I was diagnosed as T2 after one test result of 49. At the next test, after 12 weeks, I was at 44. So according to these guidelines I should not have been diagnosed as T2? Mind you, I probably would still have been at 48 or higher if I had been tested 2 weeks after the first HbA1c.

Had you also had a fasting blood plasma test? If you did and it was above 7 this will probably be the reason you only had one HbA1c before you were diagnosed.

From the 2013 handbook for T2 diagnosis where there are no symptoms.
An HbA1c ≥6.5% AND a single elevated plasma glucose (fasting ≥7 or random ≥11.1)
 

ringi

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Often a random BG test is done on the same blood sample as the HbA1c - mine come back as 34, hence no need for a 2nd HbA1c test.
 

Bluetit1802

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Often a random BG test is done on the same blood sample as the HbA1c - mine come back as 34, hence no need for a 2nd HbA1c test.

This happened with me. My random plasma test came back as 7.4mmol/l with an HbA1c of 52, hence I had a second HbA1c 12 days later which came back as 53 and a fasting plasma test of 7.
 

ringi

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Normal reduced carb does not get quick enough results and very low carb is too hard for a GP to educate most people in within the 10 minutes the doctor has on the day the test person is told they have Type2.

The advantage of insulin is that the patient should be told how to change their insulin dose as their BG come down. The patient can then be told about low carb, exercise etc , and challenged to improve their diet so they can reduce then stop insulin while keeping BG at reasonable levels. The risks and pain of every increasing long term insulin usage can be explained and used as a way to motivate people – but GPs have run out of the 7 minutes before they get to this bit…..

But I think SGLT2 inhibitors are a better option than insulin, with all the side effect explained and how by reducing carb intake the risk of the side effects reduce greatly. Then use a urine drip stick (along with BG meter) for the patient to truck their progress aiming for no sugar being detected in their urine and hence no need for the drug anymore. SGLT2 inhibitors have the nice side effect of weight lose……. SGLT2 inhibitors also don't lead to Hypros, so they don't stop people experimenting with fasting, low carb etc.

SGLT2 inhibitors cam be explain in how they get BG out of the body, but that it is better not to put the BG in in the first place by advoidng most carbs.....

Low carb can be presented just as well as a way for people to prevent an ever increasing life time usage of drugs as it can as a way for people to avoid the drugs in the first place. Both once a day insulin and SGLT2 inhibitors fail to stop the peak after meals, so pre/post meal testing can still be presented as a way for people to learn what foods to avoid.

Or send people away to do a 72hr water fast, with 23hr fasts on the next few days, and retest their BG in a week’s time – explaining that once they have got it down they can keep it down by eating low carb. But for this to work the GP must believe it does and be able to tell the person many case studies about it working.

The USA is now getting a “payment by results” service for getting T2 off insulin and most drugs, this lets the “turnaround experts” do their work, with the “normal doctor” putting people on insulin to stabilize them in the short term. Will be very interesting to see how this work, we will now in a few years time.

Until GPs start believing that most people can change their lifes to control Type2 hence advoiding lifeitme every increasing drug usage nothing will change.
 

ickihun

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similar to my experience. Sadly , too many studies are oriented toward people not acquiring Diabetes or its complications and fewer toward helping us when we already have them.

I don't know my calcium score. I only know that I have a lot of calcificaiton

Am up late after spending the day listening to advice on whether or not to go to the emergency room.
Did you go?
 

Kentoldlady1

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I was told I was t2d after one hbalc of 53. No other tests. Have never seen a gp about this or the other 2 diagnoses I received at the same time. I dont think all gps even know that there is a handbook.

I have made an appointment ( for October, made t h is last week and it was the first bookable appointment for chronic conditions) to talk about my diagnosis, but as I could . Only book a single appoint I must decide which ofmy 3 problems I need to talk about.
 

ickihun

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I understand your point completely, however no doctor, nor patient can know if diet alone "could work" unless given the chance to try. Yes its true that posters are the lucky ones - but that is because the NHS advice does NOTHING to spell out how to resolve anything.

The handbook says nothing at all about what " lifestyle changes" actually means to anyone. From reports on here its clear that for very many people lifestyle changes are either enough or a very significant contributor to resolving/ reducing the problem. If a patient reports is diagnosed with hba1C above 7.5 and the NHS says that insulin is an appropriate treatment regime day 1 (or the other less powerful drugs in less extreme cases ) - then where that regime is used, those patients never got the chance to find out . In my own case my own doctor wanted to do precisely that.

The doctor I met last week said that he would put all such patients on insulin immediately because of how critical it was to bring blood sugar down and then think later about trying to encourage lifestyle changes. Of course some people will report in with sky high actual blood sugars and maybe ketoacidosis, and in those cases of course drugs must be used. For very many of us that is not the position we are in on diagnosis.

By issuing the prescription, or injecting the insulin, the doctor is sending the message " I CAN FIX YOU " you don't need to do anything. Anything he says thereafter will be coloured by that.

On the day of diagnosis, you are in shock and probably for the first time in your life, truly fundamentally afraid that your body is going to give up on you. To me that is the day when if someone is given a very clear message - "Stop eating processed foods, sugar and starchy carbohydrates and start walking TODAY - come back in 30 days and we will look again . I will be able to tell from a new set of blood tests if you did it or not. Then we can discuss the way forward " then that is most likely to result in the patient actually trying to make the lifestyle change .

By introducing drugs as an option day 1 - we send the message that this is fixable without fundamental change. All the evidence shows its not actually fixable with drugs, just that drugs will help to varying degrees depending on the extent of the underlying damage. There are still reports showing patients who have been on insulin for years, being able to come off it with the assistance of LCHF and exercise - those patients probably never needed it in the first place.

People may have been living with it for years ( as I was - at least three) . My blood sugars came down into a more normal range within 10 days with no medication - within 30 I knew I was on the right track, as do many other new people on here.

I recognise entirely that for some people medication is fundamental for T2 diagnosis however I question completely the current treatment protocol and time line.
I agree but I think if hba1c is over 7.5 then that patient has taken months to get that reading. Not over night like a type1. Also if misdiagnosed as type2 instead of type1 it can be very dangerous. They are covering every eventuality.
A type2 would take months to a hba1c of 9.4mmol/l. Many posters here don't start their diagnoses so high. This is a very dangerous average since some levels through the hba1c period would have been higher.
I do agree they would need immediate intervention. Insulin is the safest and quickest.
Only for those high cases.
 

ickihun

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I was told I was t2d after one hbalc of 53. No other tests. Have never seen a gp about this or the other 2 diagnoses I received at the same time. I dont think all gps even know that there is a handbook.

I have made an appointment ( for October, made t h is last week and it was the first bookable appointment for chronic conditions) to talk about my diagnosis, but as I could . Only book a single appoint I must decide which ofmy 3 problems I need to talk about.
Mention diabetes then tell them how they are affecting your other problems.
Because uncontrolled diabetes, always will.
 

ickihun

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ringi said:
Normal reduced carb does not get quick enough results and very low carb is too hard for a GP to educate most people in within the 10 minutes the doctor has on the day the test person is told they have Type2.

The advantage of insulin is that the patient should be told how to change their insulin dose as their BG come down. The patient can then be told about low carb, exercise etc , and challenged to improve their diet so they can reduce then stop insulin while keeping BG at reasonable levels. The risks and pain of every increasing long term insulin usage can be explained and used as a way to motivate people – but GPs have run out of the 7 minutes before they get to this bit…..

But I think SGLT2 inhibitors are a better option than insulin, with all the side effect explained and how by reducing carb intake the risk of the side effects reduce greatly. Then use a urine drip stick (along with BG meter) for the patient to truck their progress aiming for no sugar being detected in their urine and hence no need for the drug anymore. SGLT2 inhibitors have the nice side effect of weight lose……. SGLT2 inhibitors also don't lead to Hypros, so they don't stop people experimenting with fasting, low carb etc.

SGLT2 inhibitors cam be explain in how they get BG out of the body, but that it is better not to put the BG in in the first place by advoidng most carbs.....

Low carb can be presented just as well as a way for people to prevent an ever increasing life time usage of drugs as it can as a way for people to avoid the drugs in the first place. Both once a day insulin and SGLT2 inhibitors fail to stop the peak after meals, so pre/post meal testing can still be presented as a way for people to learn what foods to avoid.

Or send people away to do a 72hr water fast, with 23hr fasts on the next few days, and retest their BG in a week’s time – explaining that once they have got it down they can keep it down by eating low carb. But for this to work the GP must believe it does and be able to tell the person many case studies about it working.

The USA is now getting a “payment by results” service for getting T2 off insulin and most drugs, this lets the “turnaround experts” do their work, with the “normal doctor” putting people on insulin to stabilize them in the short term. Will be very interesting to see how this work, we will now in a few years time.

Until GPs start believing that most people can change their lifes to control Type2 hence advoiding lifeitme every increasing drug usage nothing will change.
I agree.
Many just don't get it. Some never do.
Some don't want anything getting in their way of doing what they want (beer and high carb foods), not what their body needs.
Very very sad seeing people in waiting room in diabetic unit who are unhappy awaiting to see their consultant. Their expecting bad news, maybe?
I hope my optimism has helped everyone. Including diabetic team to pass on the optimism of lower hba1cs. I hope.
 
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Prem51

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Had you also had a fasting blood plasma test? If you did and it was above 7 this will probably be the reason you only had one HbA1c before you were diagnosed.

From the 2013 handbook for T2 diagnosis where there are no symptoms.
An HbA1c ≥6.5% AND a single elevated plasma glucose (fasting ≥7 or random ≥11.1)
No I've never had any other tests apart from annual HbA1c/thyroid tests because I had hyperthyroidism..
 

Bluetit1802

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No I've never had any other tests apart from annual HbA1c/thyroid tests because I had hyperthyroidism..

Strange, although I wouldn't have known about my FBG and random tests without the print outs I asked for. I was only told the HbA1c result - another incidence of HCPs filtering out information!
 

ickihun

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I take heart that any amendment is due to lessons been learnt! ;)