Prof Roy Taylor's work on reversing type 2 diabetes

[Pipp]

@Guzzler
The reason I chose to follow ND method with meal replacement shakes was because the only solution to my obese state and rising HbA1c measures that I was being offered was bariatric surgery. Previously I had been following NHS recommended diet and both weight and HbA1c were still increasing. I had no knowledge then of other methods such as low carb, ketogenic, etc. It was purely by chance that around the time I had questioned the 'expert' NHS weight management doctors on why I couldn't just follow the post bariatric diet, that the first reports from Prof Taylor et al were being released. The weight management docs and dieticians actually laughed at me. Thankfully my GP took me seriously.
Together we formulated a plan after GP had consulted the Newcastle team. I avoided the surgery.
I would not disparage bariatric surgery for those that feel it is best for them. Not would I claim ND is the best, or only way, to achieve goal. In fact, I have on many occasions advised people that it might not suit them. Indeed there is much to consider before making a decision. Knowledge is not static, and we can learn from each others' experiences, but we have to apply that knowledge to our own individual circumstances. To that end, I an considering a very low calorie diet but incorporate intermittent fasting, (varying on a daily basis the 'window' of when to consume nutrition) a sort of combination of ND and Fung methods, aiming for ketosis. All worked out from knowlegde and exoerience of other members, and reading published research.

 

[ringi]

The transition from low cal diet with shakes to low cal without seems as though it might be a big step to climb. One would have to be highly motivated to stick to that at home.

That's the primary reasons I think a combination of Low Carb and Intermittent Fasting is much more likely to give good long-term result to most people.

 

[ringi]

Let remember that most people in the ND study have never read this website and reduce their carb intake by going on the shakes. E.g their results may not mutch what people reading this gets, as they are starting from a worse diet, so could be expected to get better results.

 

[badcat]

Let remember that most people in the ND study have never read this website and reduce their carb intake by going on the shakes. E.g their results may not mutch what people reading this gets, as they are starting from a worse diet, so could be expected to get better results.

I think thats a massive assumption. Given that participants with diabetes for over 10 years were part of the study, why on earth would you assume they have been too whatever ( thick, lazy, blinkered, uninformed, uninterested, etc etc etc) to have done their own research and found various sites, including this one?. Unless of course you assume everyone finding this site becomes a fully paid up lchf convert

 

[ringi]

Partly the ND studies exclude anyone who has done a diet recently, therefore they are lickly to exclude anyone who is trying low carb etc even if low carb has not worked that well for them.

Most people on this site have tried low carb to some extend, some people find that just reducing some of their carb intake is all it takes to control their BG. These people are unlikely to trying doing ND themselfs.....

Hence I expect that the people on this site who can reverse their Type2 with the least effert are not the people who are trying the ND.

 

[bulkbiker]

I think thats a massive assumption. Given that participants with diabetes for over 10 years were part of the study, why on earth would you assume they have been too whatever ( thick, lazy, blinkered, uninformed, uninterested, etc etc etc) to have done their own research and found various sites, including this one?. Unless of course you assume everyone finding this site becomes a fully paid up lchf convert

Because there were only 40 of them (41 if you include the one that dropped out). If they were low carbers I would hazard a guess they wouldn't have needed the ND in the first place.

 

[badcat]

Because there were only 40 of them (41 if you include the one that dropped out). If they were low carbers I would hazard a guess they wouldn't have needed the ND in the first place.

Again you are assuming lc club membership of everyone using / visiting the site and lchf supremacy as a dietary approach for all

 

[bulkbiker]

Again you are assuming lchf club membership

Not really I have just read the ND studies.. there have so far only been 40 people on the reported ND studies..or as I said 41.. the likelihood of them having been members here is therefore very slim already. The first ones must have been in 2009-2010 as the results were published in 2011 the second lot presumably sometime 2012-2015 as the results were published 2016.
I have asked before if anyone here was a participant in the original studies and got no response.. so it's just a guess but a fairly well informed one.

 

[badcat]

Partly the ND studies exclude anyone who has done a diet recently, therefore they are lickly to exclude anyone who is trying low carb etc even if low carb has not worked that well for them.

Most people on this site have tried low carb to some extend, some people find that just reducing some of their carb intake is all it takes to control their BG. These people are unlikely to trying doing ND themselfs.....

Hence I expect that the people on this site who can reverse their Type2 with the least effert are not the people who are trying the ND.

and there are people where LC works well at first but things get a damm site more more complicated the longer you have diabetes

 

[badcat]

Not really I have just read the ND studies.. there have so far only been 40 people on the reported ND studies..or as I said 41.. the likelihood of them having been members here is therefore very slim already. The first ones must have been in 2009-2010 as the results were published in 2011 the second lot presumably sometime 2012-2015 as the results were published 2016.
I have asked before if anyone here was a participant in the original studies and got no response.. so it's just a guess but a fairly well informed one.

Ive been a member of the site since 2012 although I dropped out of using the site for several years because the amount of dogma frankly got on my *nerves.
In 2012 there were significant numbers of people on the site adopting the ND approach although not part of the research group.
It is v interesting to see just how much the debate on the site between this or that approach has gone full circle and is repeating itself

Edit by mod: it was getting a bit vulgar.

 

[ringi]

and there are people where LC works well at first but things get a damm site more more complicated the longer you have diabetes

I expect these people are much more lickly to be included in people on this forum who are trying ND then in the study.

My main point to seems to have been lost, is that I expect results from people on this forum doing the ND to not be as good as in the sudy, due to the factors I have been talking about. Hence we must not assume the widespread use of ND would be "only" as good as what we are seeing people do.

 

[Guzzler]

Does it really matter which approach helps you to reach your goals? If one approach doesn't work we are motivated enough to try another or a mixture of approaches. I hear people saying "One size does not fit all" constantly and I can see merits in all of the pathways that people choose. I dropped lucky, my first choice has worked for me but it may not always be so and as age creeps up on me I may have to change or adapt my approach. We will see shortly how different people fared in the ND studies but you can bet your best handbag that no one will have exactly the same response as another.

 

[Pipp]

Please keep discussion civil, folks.

 

[Pipp]

Does it really matter which approach helps you to reach your goals? If one approach doesn't work we are motivated enough to try another or a mixture of approaches. I hear people saying "One size does not fit all" constantly and I can see merits in all of the pathways that people choose. I dropped lucky, my first choice has worked for me but it may not always be so and as age creeps up on me I may have to change or adapt my approach. We will see shortly how different people fared in the ND studies but you can bet your best handbag that no one will have exactly the same response as another.

Yes, short term, 6 years ago, all was fine for me after two separate stints on ND /VLCD. Unaware of other methods and this forum at the time, I believed I had cracked it. Still just about under the limit for T2 level HbA1c, after some weight gain, but still not free of concern that BG increase could happen to tip me over the limit. Even if it does, have had 6 years respite, though still an ongoing project and as I age I expect changes to occur.

 

[Mbaker]

Does it really matter which approach helps you to reach your goals? If one approach doesn't work we are motivated enough to try another or a mixture of approaches. I hear people saying "One size does not fit all" constantly and I can see merits in all of the pathways that people choose. I dropped lucky, my first choice has worked for me but it may not always be so and as age creeps up on me I may have to change or adapt my approach. We will see shortly how different people fared in the ND studies but you can bet your best handbag that no one will have exactly the same response as another.

I get why the "one size does not fit all" gets said, but is this meant in the context of reducing carbs (without upping protein) for particularly Type 2's does not work, or that low carbing is just not for them in terms of restricting the usual suspects such as rice, potatoes, pasta and the like.

I can't fathom how for a Type 2 lowing carbs cannot have at least a positive outcome on blood sugar numbers...I am all ears to be educated otherwise. I do get that different Type 2's have different pinch points when eating for example an apple, but when eating cauliflower, bacon, eggs, mushrooms and similar low carb foods, would these "fit all", in all but the taste stakes with regards to lower blood sugars.

 

[Fleegle]

Does it really matter which approach helps you to reach your goals? If one approach doesn't work we are motivated enough to try another or a mixture of approaches. I hear people saying "One size does not fit all" constantly and I can see merits in all of the pathways that people choose. I dropped lucky, my first choice has worked for me but it may not always be so and as age creeps up on me I may have to change or adapt my approach. We will see shortly how different people fared in the ND studies but you can bet your best handbag that no one will have exactly the same response as another.

Here here - well said. I intend to try them all - and keep trying them all as long as my results improve.

 

[Tannith]

That's the primary reasons I think a combination of Low Carb and Intermittent Fasting is much more likely to give good long-term result to most people.

I'm doing ND with real food, so I think the transition to maintenance diet will be easier for me than if I had done shakes, as I shall just have to increase the real food a little to match my new weight and calorie requirements. I don't know what diet I shall use yet. I have not decided but am looking at the "Dash" diet because it apparently helps with high blood pressure and mine is not brilliant.

 

[lindisfel]

I'm doing ND with real food, so I think the transition to maintenance diet will be easier for me than if I had done shakes, as I shall just have to increase the real food a little to match my new weight and calorie requirements. I don't know what diet I shall use yet. I have not decided but am looking at the "Dash" diet because it apparently helps with high blood pressure and mine is not brilliant.

There are a lot of carbs in dash diets.
Too many for me else I would have done it.
Dash is basically a low sodium high potassium diet for those with htn. I have Conn's as well as T2D/ RH so I eat LCHF with low sodium high potassium because my body retains sodium and pees out potassium. Whatever you do if you are hypertensive do not follow the advice on here to ingest more salt.
Consult your doctor.
When I see people recommending more sodium and potassium I chuckle, its like putting ones feet on the accelerator and brake at the same time.
regards
Derek

 

[Chook]

I'm doing ND with real food, so I think the transition to maintenance diet will be easier for me than if I had done shakes, as I shall just have to increase the real food a little to match my new weight and calorie requirements. I don't know what diet I shall use yet. I have not decided but am looking at the "Dash" diet because it apparently helps with high blood pressure and mine is not brilliant.

Be careful with the DASH diet - its a lovely and very, very easy diet to stick to (I was on it for a couple of years) but while I lost a bit of weight, my waist actually got bigger while the rest of my shrank a bit which, I think, is an indication of increased visceral fat - due to the high amount of fruit and veg which is the basis of that particular diet.

I'm also doing ND with real food but I've kept it to low carb - which is how I've been eating for two years and I just can't bring myself to eat carbs in any amount any more not after having struggled for so long to get my HbA1c down to where I'm at now. I think that after finishing twelve weeks of ND I will shake it up a bit - always low carb but have fasting days and possibly swapping around when I have my main meal and/or maybe zero carb days - probably a couple of 800 calorie days - anything I can think of really to stop my BGs getting used to one way of eating.

 

[Guzzler]

I get why the "one size does not fit all" gets said, but is this meant in the context of reducing carbs (without upping protein) for particularly Type 2's does not work, or that low carbing is just not for them in terms of restricting the usual suspects such as rice, potatoes, pasta and the like.

I can't fathom how for a Type 2 lowing carbs cannot have at least a positive outcome on blood sugar numbers...I am all ears to be educated otherwise. I do get that different Type 2's have different pinch points when eating for example an apple, but when eating cauliflower, bacon, eggs, mushrooms and similar low carb foods, would these "fit all", in all but the taste stakes with regards to lower blood sugars.

I have read that the cause/s of T2 (and of T1) are not known. Perhaps in the future the boffins will fully understand the causes and will be able to explain why some do not respond well to certain approaches or treatments. I have suffered for many years with a condition for which the cause is unknown and for as many that respond to dietary control there are an equal number that do not acquire control by dietary means alone. Until the causes of all the types of diabetes are known we may never know why one size does not fit all.