Prof Roy Taylor's work on reversing type 2 diabetes

[Fleegle]

I have read that the cause/s of T2 (and of T1) are not known. Perhaps in the future the boffins will fully understand the causes and will be able to explain why some do not respond well to certain approaches or treatments. I have suffered for many years with a condition for which the cause is unknown and for as many that respond to dietary control there are an equal number that do not acquire control by dietary means alone. Until the causes of all the types of diabetes are known we may never know why one size does not fit all.

I think your point around control is so helpful - and that is why I think everyone should be open minded to any and all solutions and not get to hung up on what worked well for them alone. As an example - people react differently to different foods right? The universal advice is to test yourself - and good advice too. But then if different foods can react differently why on earth would one control method work for all?

I love it when people post their success stories but it frustrates me when the only answer is that success story and any other science is constantly picked apart whether that science be ND, or VLCD, Blood Sugar diet or Low Carb. As I said - I am working my way through them all - and if I read a well regarded science paper from a reasonable size study which suggests dancing naked under a full moon whilst earing dandelions reverses it - then I might even give that a go.

 

[Indy51]

I'm doing ND with real food, so I think the transition to maintenance diet will be easier for me than if I had done shakes, as I shall just have to increase the real food a little to match my new weight and calorie requirements. I don't know what diet I shall use yet. I have not decided but am looking at the "Dash" diet because it apparently helps with high blood pressure and mine is not brilliant.

Nina Teicholz is pretty scathing about the science behind the DASH diet:
https://ninateicholz.com/the-deal-on-dash/

 

[Tannith]

Be careful with the DASH diet - its a lovely and very, very easy diet to stick to (I was on it for a couple of years) but while I lost a bit of weight, my waist actually got bigger while the rest of my shrank a bit which, I think, is an indication of increased visceral fat - due to the high amount of fruit and veg which is the basis of that particular diet.

I'm also doing ND with real food but I've kept it to low carb - which is how I've been eating for two years and I just can't bring myself to eat carbs in any amount any more not after having struggled for so long to get my HbA1c down to where I'm at now. I think that after finishing twelve weeks of ND I will shake it up a bit - always low carb but have fasting days and possibly swapping around when I have my main meal and/or maybe zero carb days - probably a couple of 800 calorie days - anything I can think of really to stop my BGs getting used to one way of eating.

Your HBA1C looks brilliant already. Haven't you already lost your pancreatic fat to get BGs that low?

 

[CherryAA]

Again you are assuming lc club membership of everyone using / visiting the site and lchf supremacy as a dietary approach for all

Take a look at what happened to me today on this thread .
If eating LCHF can make a T2 diabetic with an Hba1C of 90 a year ago have fasting glucose of 4.4, average of 4.8 , post prandial high of 5.0 after a meal of 1600 + calories eaten all at once including , 40g carbs and 69 g protein then it definitely works for me! I was starting to waver - but not anymore.

http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/low-insulin-diet-t2-diabetes.127156/page-3#post-1577272

 

[kokhongw]

Dr Roy Taylor has done amazing work over the years to prove a simple point...that T2D is reversible...to the point of restoring 1st phase insulin response. This 2013 paper seems to state rather clearly
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3609491/

Reversal of type 2 diabetes to normal metabolic control by either bariatric surgery or hypocaloric diet allows for the time sequence of underlying pathophysiologic mechanisms to be observed. In reverse order, the same mechanisms are likely to determine the events leading to the onset of hyperglycemia and permit insight into the etiology of type 2 diabetes. Within 7 days of instituting a substantial negative calorie balance by either dietary intervention or bariatric surgery, fasting plasma glucose levels can normalize. This rapid change relates to a substantial fall in liver fat content and return of normal hepatic insulin sensitivity. Over 8 weeks, first phase and maximal rates of insulin secretion steadily return to normal, and this change is in step with steadily decreasing pancreatic fat content.

The following years have been spent expanding on and fine tuning the concept and creating a protocol that may be widely adopted/applied in primary care settings...

 

[kokhongw]

Dr Roy Taylor has done amazing work over the years to prove a simple point...that T2D is reversible...to the point of restoring 1st phase insulin response. This 2012 paper seems to state rather clearly
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3609491/


The following years have been spent expanding on and fine tuning the concept and creating a protocol that may be widely adopted/applied in primary care settings...

 

[Kentoldlady1]

Yes, but their website says 2 or less shakes may give mild ketosis, but the ND diet is 3 so is not the standard Optifast diet for weight loss. It seems that the ND team kept the carb level just above the level for ketosis to happen, and indeed deemed it a fail if ketones registered above 0,1.

Did they say why it failed if ketones went above 0.1?
Did they continue with the diet with the ones whose diet failed?
Did these failures have different results?

I have used lchf, but stuck.to about 800 cals a day, using the blood sugar diet (but my own food cos those recipes are dreadful). After a few days I also went omad because I found I was less hungry and I could eat with my family.

I have done this for about 9 weeks and was dx in june. No idea what my bgl were when I started and my hba1c was 53. I recently bought a ketonemeter and am in ketosis.
It is now 39 and my bgl never goes above 7 after food. However I still am lchf and a collision with a scone proved that I am in now way "cured".

But an important point is I am still quite overweight. I need to lose nearly as much as I have already lost. Once I have done that I will reassess, using my scientific scone experiment.

Like many on here I will do just about anything so long as it has some hard hitting science behind it. I was very much persuaded by jason fung and have used his if, finding it surprisingly easy. I must admit to being confused by prof taylor.

An earlier post on this thread( apologies, cannot remember who wrote it) said that some of the participants in the studies had to.go back on meds once on the diet because thier bgls were rising. I think I am.confused because it seems obvious that if you feed t2ds so many carbs then of course the bgl would rise. Why give them.so.many to start with?

Are the studies showing that it does not matter what you eat, only that it has to be less than 800 cals?
Does it have to be quick? Ie would not the same weight.loss over a longer time be just as good?
Why does it have to have so many carbs? It almost seems he is trying to.prove that carbs are not the enemy of t2d ( I am sure he is not, but I cannot see why such a large number are included in the shakes).

Sorry for the long lis of questions. But I would be very grateful if anyone would take the time to have a go at some of it.
Otherwise its back to dancing naked with dandelions and I dont think the police will be as understanding this time.x

 

[CherryAA]

I thought the point was as if you went into ketosis on this diet your success rate dropped?

I find that almost inconceivable as a theory to be honest.

The goal of the diet is to get fat out of the pancreas, the quicker the better. I have seen no research anywhere that suggests that being in ketosis puts fat into the pancreas - that would mean that all the keto dieters out there would be reporting increased rates of diabetes and I've not seen that suggested anywhere.

 

[ringi]

How were they testing for ketosis?

Some test just prove the body is not using the ketos and say very little about if they are being produced and used up by the body.

 

[Chook]

Your HBA1C looks brilliant already. Haven't you already lost your pancreatic fat to get BGs that low?

Thank you! I wish.... but no, I still have plenty of visceral fat.

I normally keep to a very low carb way of eating which keeps my BGs low but, after the initial year when I lost 5st, low carbing hasn't helped me lose any more and I did, in fact, regain about 2st due to reduced activity after a workplace accident. Since I've been doing ND with real food (800 calories/day) I've lost 1st 4lbs - and I've successfully experimented with some high carb foods (which was a scary experiment). I'm continuing on for the full 12 weeks mainly in the hope that reducing my weight will ease the pain in my arthritic hips and knees.

 

[Fleegle]

I find that almost inconceivable as a theory to be honest.

The goal of the diet is to get fat out of the pancreas, the quicker the better. I have seen no research anywhere that suggests that being in ketosis puts fat into the pancreas - that would mean that all the keto dieters out there would be reporting increased rates of diabetes and I've not seen that suggested anywhere.

Although I agree - I am not a scientist in that field and they are and I guess they worked something out through looking at their magnetic scanner? I don't know - but I certainly read at some point that people that were in Ketosis fared less well.

Perhaps it was correlative and not causal I have no idea.

I also read last night their wider "email, letter, telephone" analysis which I think firmly puts to bed this idea that only 40 people have tried it. The results in their should give hope to a lot of people - even those over 10 years suffering.

What we have then is a scientific experiment which had all the right controls that found something that many people have repeated and reported outside the study. All we need now is someone to do the same research on the long term implications and benefits of LCHF too which I am sure when you combine them and reduce insulin which I hope would up with a major breakthrough.

 

[CherryAA]

Although I agree - I am not a scientist in that field and they are and I guess they worked something out through looking at their magnetic scanner? I don't know - but I certainly read at some point that people that were in Ketosis fared less well.

Perhaps it was correlative and not causal I have no idea.

I also read last night their wider "email, letter, telephone" analysis which I think firmly puts to bed this idea that only 40 people have tried it. The results in their should give hope to a lot of people - even those over 10 years suffering.

What we have then is a scientific experiment which had all the right controls that found something that many people have repeated and reported outside the study. All we need now is someone to do the same research on the long term implications and benefits of LCHF too which I am sure when you combine them and reduce insulin which I hope would up with a major breakthrough.

The Tim Noakes study that I participated in is the precursor to one of those - I think the intention is to translate the data they got from the guinea pigof which I am one, into a controlled study

 

[Tannith]

Did they say why it failed if ketones went above 0.1?
Did they continue with the diet with the ones whose diet failed?
Did these failures have different results?

I have used lchf, but stuck.to about 800 cals a day, using the blood sugar diet (but my own food cos those recipes are dreadful). After a few days I also went omad because I found I was less hungry and I could eat with my family.

I have done this for about 9 weeks and was dx in june. No idea what my bgl were when I started and my hba1c was 53. I recently bought a ketonemeter and am in ketosis.
It is now 39 and my bgl never goes above 7 after food. However I still am lchf and a collision with a scone proved that I am in now way "cured".

But an important point is I am still quite overweight. I need to lose nearly as much as I have already lost. Once I have done that I will reassess, using my scientific scone experiment.

Like many on here I will do just about anything so long as it has some hard hitting science behind it. I was very much persuaded by jason fung and have used his if, finding it surprisingly easy. I must admit to being confused by prof taylor.

An earlier post on this thread( apologies, cannot remember who wrote it) said that some of the participants in the studies had to.go back on meds once on the diet because thier bgls were rising. I think I am.confused because it seems obvious that if you feed t2ds so many carbs then of course the bgl would rise. Why give them.so.many to start with?

Are the studies showing that it does not matter what you eat, only that it has to be less than 800 cals?
Does it have to be quick? Ie would not the same weight.loss over a longer time be just as good?
Why does it have to have so many carbs? It almost seems he is trying to.prove that carbs are not the enemy of t2d ( I am sure he is not, but I cannot see why such a large number are included in the shakes).

Sorry for the long lis of questions. But I would be very grateful if anyone would take the time to have a go at some of it.
Otherwise its back to dancing naked with dandelions and I dont think the police will be as understanding this time.x

Is it the Optifast protocol or Prof Taylors protocol that says that the ND diet fails if ketones are above 0.1? Could you refer me to the section/line paragraph in Prof Taylor's protocol that talks about ketones? I have looked a couple of times but can't seem to find it. Is it in the main protocol doc? I am doing ND and I had not realised I needed to measure ketones, so I need to know.

 

[Kentoldlady1]

Is it the Optifast protocol or Prof Taylors protocol that says that the ND diet fails if ketones are above 0.1? Could you refer me to the section/line paragraph in Prof Taylor's protocol that talks about ketones? I have looked a couple of times but can't seem to find it. Is it in the main protocol doc? I am doing ND and I had not realised I needed to measure ketones, so I need to know.

Hi. It was oldvatr that mentioned this earlier in this thread. I am hoping he will bet back on this because it is very interesting.

 

[Indy51]

I'm not sure I buy that the ND is too high in carbs to cause ketosis. At 800 calories it would equate to a "starvation diet" (by way of contrast, Ancel Keys' Minnesota Starvation Diet was 1800 calories), so I would have thought ketosis would be inevitable regardless of macronutrient balance.

Have we had any members who followed the ND and measured their ketone levels during the diet?

 

[kokhongw]

If Dr Taylor had come out saying it is a ketogenic diet...the research would likely have faced more obstacles and objection from Diabetes UK...it would actually be interesting to see a comparison of a 8 week cyclical 5 day FMD or water fast diet. Except that cyclical 5 day water fast may be deem too dangerous and not pass ethics committees...

 

[Mbaker]

I'm not sure I buy that the ND is too high in carbs to cause ketosis. At 800 calories it would equate to a "starvation diet" (by way of contrast, Ancel Keys' Minnesota Starvation Diet was 1800 calories), so I would have thought ketosis would be inevitable regardless of macronutrient balance.

Have we had any members who followed the ND and measured their ketone levels during the diet?

It may have been on another thread that someone listed the carbs on sachet based ND, which came out off the top of my head somewhere between 75 and 80 grams of carbs for a days meals.

 

[Fleegle]

It may have been on another thread that someone listed the carbs on sachet based ND, which came out off the top of my head somewhere between 75 and 80 grams of carbs for a days meals.

I am doing the ND using the tesco shakes, it is not easy to get the optifast shakes in the UK and amazon had very limited stock.
The optifast were about 21g carb per sachet and the Tesco ones about 25. The protein and fat content is broadly similar. Then you get 200g of veg in the evening - I would not expect that to be more than 10g carbs so a max of 85g of carbs probably more like 75.

But you have them three times a day so the window of low is reduced significantly to say eating once a day.

I don't really know the big deal on these shakes is when many people here do a LCHF diet with 100g carbs a day.

 

[bulkbiker]

I am doing the ND using the tesco shakes, it is not easy to get the optifast shakes in the UK and amazon had very limited stock.
The optifast were about 21g carb per sachet and the Tesco ones about 25. The protein and fat content is broadly similar. Then you get 200g of veg in the evening - I would not expect that to be more than 10g carbs so a max of 85g of carbs probably more like 75.

But you have them three times a day so the window of low is reduced significantly to say eating once a day.

I don't really know the big deal on these shakes is when many people here do a LCHF diet with 100g carbs a day.

Hi @Fleegle If people are having 100g of carbs a day then are highly unlikely to be in ketosis which is what I though this was about.. I don't recall reading anything about ketosis in the ND study papers but if I'm wrong I will happily be corrected.. I may go back and re-read..

 

[Fleegle]

Hi @Fleegle If people are having 100g of carbs a day then are highly unlikely to be in ketosis which is what I though this was about.. I don't recall reading anything about ketosis in the ND study papers but if I'm wrong I will happily be corrected.. I may go back and re-read..

I certainly read that somewhere - but I had a look Tuesday night and could not find it. Possibly I read it here I am not sure.

And I know the point was about Ketosis - but the thread is broader so I thought I would simply add that those on 100g of carbs a day the ND diet is, in fact, a lower carb diet for them so great news all round. Just have all three shakes on one go.