Guidance re protein amounts

[AdamJames]

I'm beginning to think that I might as well throw a coin in the air and see how it lands to decide what to eat, rather than research into studies for guidance!

I've been persuaded, and persuaded myself, to stop the Newcastle Diet less than a week after starting. There's nothing wrong with it in terms of being able to stick to it - you really do start to feel good at about day 3, mentally and physically. There's something to be said for shakes which are crammed full of vitamins and minerals and carefully calculated macros, and then the ton of veg you also have. There's not a lot of thinking to do about diet.

But 800 cals a day (I have plenty of body fat for the additional fuel), while fine for my work routine and a bit of a walk in the evening, feels limiting at weekends in terms of going on big walks. Plus I've come round to the idea that there must be a better way of losing weight rapidly for a diabetic than having three shots of 25g of liquid sugary stuff every day.

So I was thinking I'll start by going back to LCHF, then progress to keto, then keto with fasting.

Then I made the stupid mistake of reading around again, and found this:

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0113605

...which suggests that, because carbs combined with fat lead to fat circulating in the bloodstream, you really do need to keep carbs to less than 50g if you are having a lot of fat. That made me think of quickly progressing to a "keto" diet as the carbs are then well below that safety margin.

Then I did more reading and found these:

https://idmprogram.com/how-much-protein-is-excessive/

http://www.meandmydiabetes.com/2010/05/07/ron-rosedale-protein-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly/

...which suggest excess protein is strongly linked to bad outcomes and limiting protein should be given the same importance as limiting carbohydrates (actually the chap says "more" importance). Interestingly the same magic number came up for guidance: limit protein to 50g.

Obviously this is all very dependent on individuals, but going with 50g of carbs and 50g of protein, and assuming I want to maintain weight when I get to a healthier weight, I did this maths:

50g protein = 200 calories
50g carbs = 200 calories

Maintenance calories: 2,200

So I need to add 1,800 calories from fat. Fat has 9 calories per gram, so that's 200g fat.

So total daily food weight for maintenance = 300g, where 200g = fat, 50g = protein and 50g = carbs.

So an 'ideal' kind of breakdown for foods in the diet would be something like, per 100g (I'm thinking of what to look for when looking at nutritional info labels on food for example):

Per 100g:

Calories: 733
Fat: 67g
Carbohydrate: 17g
Protein: 16g

What kind of foodstuffs / combinations of foodstuffs meet that sort of breakdown and could provide a nutritious diet? Does anyone on LCHF or keto aim for anything like that breakdown?

The sausages and bacon I've just packed in my fridge seem far too high in protien to meet that requirement. And all of a sudden, packing a Lidl high protein roll (about 30g protien I think) with chicken for lunch at work more than uses up the recommended daily protein limit.

Double cream could help balance things out - lots of fat and not a lot of protein, so that could compensate.

Are these realistic targets to aim for?

 

[Boo1979]

The first question for me would be do you think you could stomach that amount of fat on a daily basis? I know I couldnt as I get nauseous if I raise fat anywhere near 100g, but were all very different in our digestions

 

[AdamJames]

The first question for me would be do you think you could stomach that amount of fat on a daily basis? I know I couldnt as I get nauseous if I raise fat anywhere near 100g, but were all very different in our digestions

I really don't know, tbh. It's all very new territory to me!

 

[bulkbiker]

Cheese, avocado, belly pork. Mostly fit into those macros. I tend to not worry about protein limits and don't seem to suffer higher bloods because of it. There is a school of thought that gluconeogenesis is demand driven rather than just because you have eaten a lot of protein and the recommended daily amounts vary wildly. Ron Rosedale is a very low protein guy whereas others are happy to recommend higher.
In your shoes wanting to get into ketosis would be my main aim so would reduce the carbs to less than 20g and eat as much of anything as you like until you feel full. That was how I shed the first 6 stones. Again I would suggest missing breakfast replacing it with a tea or coffee (either black or with cream) and just eating twice a day.
That should be fairly easily achievable for a month without feeling deprived. How about trying that and seeing how you go?

 

[bulkbiker]

I think the phrase is don't let perfection get in the way of progress. Start by choosing a path and sticking to it. Take all your measurements Weight. waist, BP, BG now and then apart from regular BG see what happens in a months time.
You;re starting to overthink what should be a fairly simple process. Cut carbs to the barest minimum and eat real food.

 

[Jemz]

I think the phrase is don't let perfection get in the way of progress. Start by choosing a path and sticking to it. Take all your measurements Weight. waist, BP, BG now and then apart from regular BG see what happens in a months time.
You;re starting to overthink what should be a fairly simple process. Cut carbs to the barest minimum and eat real food.

Thanks @AdamJames for posting this. I am often side tracked by new theories.
Am trying to achieve consistency.
So I really love this response from @bulkbiker .... I have chosen a path and am sticking to it

 

[ickihun]

Cheese, avocado, belly pork. Mostly fit into those macros. I tend to not worry about protein limits and don't seem to suffer higher bloods because of it. There is a school of thought that gluconeogenesis is demand driven rather than just because you have eaten a lot of protein and the recommended daily amounts vary wildly. Ron Rosedale is a very low protein guy whereas others are happy to recommend higher.
In your shoes wanting to get into ketosis would be my main aim so would reduce the carbs to less than 20g and eat as much of anything as you like until you feel full. That was how I shed the first 6 stones. Again I would suggest missing breakfast replacing it with a tea or coffee (either black or with cream) and just eating twice a day.
That should be fairly easily achievable for a month without feeling deprived. How about trying that and seeing how you go?

Bulletproof coffee was what started my lose off too.
I think dairy was preventing me from losing on starting block. Cheese especially and just found out my double cream I was using was an alternative one. Argh!!!

 

[AdamJames]

Cheese, avocado, belly pork. Mostly fit into those macros. I tend to not worry about protein limits and don't seem to suffer higher bloods because of it. There is a school of thought that gluconeogenesis is demand driven rather than just because you have eaten a lot of protein and the recommended daily amounts vary wildly. Ron Rosedale is a very low protein guy whereas others are happy to recommend higher.
In your shoes wanting to get into ketosis would be my main aim so would reduce the carbs to less than 20g and eat as much of anything as you like until you feel full. That was how I shed the first 6 stones. Again I would suggest missing breakfast replacing it with a tea or coffee (either black or with cream) and just eating twice a day.
That should be fairly easily achievable for a month without feeling deprived. How about trying that and seeing how you go?

I presumed that this Rosedale was well known and I was hoping that people would have different views, that's a relief!

I've definitely reached mental breaking point with trying to read up on 'best practice', it's really not helping me stick to anything. It is good to be aware of things however and try to get things right, or at least not too wrong, from the start.

I don't often log what I eat but I did go through a phase, and example protein amounts (grams per day) when I look back now were:

148.67
151.69
189.31
115.3
144.47

And that wasn't even keto, so I worried that trying keto would push the numbers up even higher!

So I think the way I'll look at it is, yes, somebody recommends about 50g, but even if I get up to twice that, I'm having a lot less than before!

I totally agree about no overthinking now. Frankly I've had enough. And any attempt at anything doesn't have to be permanent, I'll see what things are like in a month.

Cheese, avocado and belly pork all sound good to me.

 

[Brunneria]

If you want to round out your perspectives on protein intake, I recommend that you have a look at Jason Fung's comments on the subject (just find his blog and search for 'protein').

There are so many different ideas about protein intake that I kind of resist taking any one perspective. Rosedale is a supporter on limiting protein intake, but it is just one view, and not one that has ever worked for my body, so I take a more liberal, but not overly generous view.

It is another situation where all the reading in the world won't change how our individual bodies react to our individual food intake.

 

[walnut_face]

@AdamJames Take a look at your kidney function. If they are fine processing protein, why change your eating pattern. I now have to restrict my protein intake as my kidneys are not filtering it out fully.

 

[bulkbiker]

Bulletproof coffee was what started my lose off too.
I think dairy was preventing me from losing on starting block. Cheese especially and just found out my double cream I was using was an alternative one. Argh!!!

Not the dreaded Elmlea? nasty stuff

 

[Bluetit1802]

If you don't have any kidney problems and they are working well (your blood tests will tell you this) then there is no harm to your general health in eating whatever protein you have always eaten. That is my personal opinion. We need enough protein. Every cell in our bodies need it for building, renewing, repairing, healing. Especially as we get older. I want to know that if I fall down I can get up again, and if I damage any cells they will repair themselves.

I eat the same amount I have always eaten and have not restricted it at all. Others have different views. If my kidneys begin to complain about it, I will have a re-think, but so far they have survived very well for 70 years.

 

[DCUKMod]

I think the phrase is don't let perfection get in the way of progress..........

Frankly, along with "Eat to your Meter" and a few other gems, this phase should be set in stone, framed and lit.

In my world, perfection doesn't exist for more than a few days, months, minutes or whatever. The only constant in life is change, and a gazillion other cliches, but and it's a big BUT; I want to live my life. I want to enjoy my life, and I'd like it to go on for many moons to come.

I could strive for absolute perfection, but with that comes with a greater distraction from living and enjoying my life. In my view, life has far too many adventures awaiting me to worry if my blood sugar scores 4.5 after dinner tonight, when it was 4.4 yesterday. Yes, I know I have been known o see some stupidly low numbers naturally, and I am acutely aware I eat more carbs than many others, so I could probably drive my numbers down a bit more, but why would I want to do that?

None of that is to boast or give myself a big up. It's about saying once we get to healthy zones (whether on D&E alone or with pharmaceutical support) why would we choose to flog ourselves for a probably non-critical difference?

I ca confidently say I have never weighed a portion of anything, unless it has been an ingredient for some form of culinary alchemy. In the days when I was adding to my food, in order to halt unwanted weight loss, I used Babybel cheeses and small packs of nuts, so I guess on those I lazily weighed. Metrics? On a day-to-day basis? I have no idea.

 

[lindijanice]

Love your response, DCUKMod! Life is way too short to put ourselves under such stress and preoccupation. ( I am speaking as a T2 who is decreasing her Metformin from 2000mg to 1000mg to now 500mg and hopefully 0mg in a week or two to give diet control a shot.) We may have to be strict with ourselves for the short term to get to where we are in better control than previously if we haven't looked after ourselves, like me for 16 years re: diabetes, but now, I am still tweaking things and am considering a more reasonable approach, which I think eat to your meter is - gives way to your individual body's response, your dietary preferences and life style....at least that is what I am finding. Blessings/L

 

[AdamJames]

I think the phrase is don't let perfection get in the way of progress. Start by choosing a path and sticking to it. Take all your measurements Weight. waist, BP, BG now and then apart from regular BG see what happens in a months time.
You;re starting to overthink what should be a fairly simple process. Cut carbs to the barest minimum and eat real food.

If you want to round out your perspectives on protein intake, I recommend that you have a look at Jason Fung's comments on the subject (just find his blog and search for 'protein').

There are so many different ideas about protein intake that I kind of resist taking any one perspective. Rosedale is a supporter on limiting protein intake, but it is just one view, and not one that has ever worked for my body, so I take a more liberal, but not overly generous view.

It is another situation where all the reading in the world won't change how our individual bodies react to our individual food intake.

@AdamJames Take a look at your kidney function. If they are fine processing protein, why change your eating pattern. I now have to restrict my protein intake as my kidneys are not filtering it out fully.

If you don't have any kidney problems and they are working well (your blood tests will tell you this) then there is no harm to your general health in eating whatever protein you have always eaten. That is my personal opinion. We need enough protein. Every cell in our bodies need it for building, renewing, repairing, healing. Especially as we get older. I want to know that if I fall down I can get up again, and if I damage any cells they will repair themselves.

I eat the same amount I have always eaten and have not restricted it at all. Others have different views. If my kidneys begin to complain about it, I will have a re-think, but so far they have survived very well for 70 years.

Frankly, along with "Eat to your Meter" and a few other gems, this phase should be set in stone, framed and lit.

In my world, perfection doesn't exist for more than a few days, months, minutes or whatever. The only constant in life is change, and a gazillion other cliches, but and it's a big BUT; I want to live my life. I want to enjoy my life, and I'd like it to go on for many moons to come.

I could strive for absolute perfection, but with that comes with a greater distraction from living and enjoying my life. In my view, life has far too many adventures awaiting me to worry if my blood sugar scores 4.5 after dinner tonight, when it was 4.4 yesterday. Yes, I know I have been known o see some stupidly low numbers naturally, and I am acutely aware I eat more carbs than many others, so I could probably drive my numbers down a bit more, but why would I want to do that?

None of that is to boast or give myself a big up. It's about saying once we get to healthy zones (whether on D&E alone or with pharmaceutical support) why would we choose to flog ourselves for a probably non-critical difference?

I ca confidently say I have never weighed a portion of anything, unless it has been an ingredient for some form of culinary alchemy. In the days when I was adding to my food, in order to halt unwanted weight loss, I used Babybel cheeses and small packs of nuts, so I guess on those I lazily weighed. Metrics? On a day-to-day basis? I have no idea.

Love your response, DCUKMod! Life is way too short to put ourselves under such stress and preoccupation. ( I am speaking as a T2 who is decreasing her Metformin from 2000mg to 1000mg to now 500mg and hopefully 0mg in a week or two to give diet control a shot.) We may have to be strict with ourselves for the short term to get to where we are in better control than previously if we haven't looked after ourselves, like me for 16 years re: diabetes, but now, I am still tweaking things and am considering a more reasonable approach, which I think eat to your meter is - gives way to your individual body's response, your dietary preferences and life style....at least that is what I am finding. Blessings/L

Sorry to be lazy and quote so many people all at once, but there seems to be a general consensus here, so I'd probably end up saying a similar thing to everyone if I tried responding individually.

I appreciate everyone's input, and I strongly suspect you are all correct, as in the whole protein issue may be the least of my concerns, and the good that a ketogenic diet may do me is likely to outweigh anything I get wrong with protein amounts.

But just for some background, I don't have a good history with going very low carb. The first time I was aware of going less than 20g a day, I spent all night urinating and drinking every 20 minutes with stabbing chest pains, and ended up in hosiptal. The doctors couldn't work out what the problem was.

So naturally I am keen to do a bit of reading around before I "try again". I don't think protein amounts will have been the problem, but I do feel I should try to educate myself by reading around, and if I spot something new to me (the idea that too much protein could be a problem was new to me!) then ask a question here.

Also re the general response that I shouldn't "sweat the small stuff", well again, I agree, and I suspect protein amounts is the least of my worries! But having just read (3rd arcticle I link to)...

"After adaptation to a protein restricted diet, if you restrict protein, diabetics experienced a 30% decrease in daily glucose concentrations."

... that's not the kind of statistic that we normally ignore! I don't know anything about this Rosedale chap, his credibility or the particular events he was referring to, but after reading an article by Jason Fung which seemed to endorse his views, and seeing that Jason Fung gets a lot of respect on this forum, I'm inclined to store the protein thing in my memory banks as something to explore if things go wrong for me again when I go very low carb.

Anyway as it stands, what I've tried since starting this thread, is my first ever "fast". I watched the Michael Moseley documentary "Eat, Fast and Live Longer" and did a bit more(!) reading around.

I decided to throw myself into the deep end of the 5:2 diet, and have 600 calories all for breakfast, going a full 24 hours till the next day. That's supposedly one of the hardest ways to stick to a fast (as having breakfast increases your appetite for the rest of the day) but I wanted to be wide awake and conscious to see if bad things started to happen again. Breakfast consisted of just 14g of carbs.

I'm pleased to say that there were no chest pains, and I got through 24 hours with no food (thanks to some peppermint tea!). The effect on my blood sugars was very interesting, at one point alarming (stayed at 3.7 for a while), but ultimately I'm glad I did it, and it's given me more confidence to try a normal 'keto' diet.

I still haven't got down to 20g of carbs when having a non-fasting day, but I'm logging what I eat and working out where to improve. The interesting challenge seems to be getting a good supply of healthy vegetables without going over the 20g limit!

 

[Kristin251]

I’m a huge keto and rosedale fan. BUT keto is finding balance. Different macros at different times of day. I save most protein and fats for later. Some need them earlier.
I do believe in the mTOR pathway and limiting protein and the science is stacking up

Best wishes

 

[Safi]

Marty Kendall has a few posts on protein - all very well referenced. It's an excellent site for nutritional info.

https://optimisingnutrition.com/2017/10/15/high-protein-vs-low-protein/

My own self? I tend not to concern myself with it too much except to ensure that I get enough if I'm doing a lot of exercise.

 

[AdamJames]

I’m a huge keto and rosedale fan. BUT keto is finding balance. Different macros at different times of day. I save most protein and fats for later. Some need them earlier.
I do believe in the mTOR pathway and limiting protein and the science is stacking up

Best wishes

Thanks.

Marty Kendall has a few posts on protein - all very well referenced. It's an excellent site for nutritional info.

https://optimisingnutrition.com/2017/10/15/high-protein-vs-low-protein/

My own self? I tend not to concern myself with it too much except to ensure that I get enough if I'm doing a lot of exercise.

That's an excellent link, thank you. It's so nice to see it when somebody has collated a ton of data and just tries to make sense of it without bias, showing pros and cons of various approaches. The links at the end to the pdfs of recommended foods for various approaches is so helpful!

Being very new to this I'm only just starting to realise certain things now, such as people doing keto rarely mention chicken, compared to things like bacon, beef etc. I guess that's because chicken is usually very low in fat compared to protein.

Also very interesting, re the pdfs recommending food for various approaches, is that there are two separate ones listed:

* diabetes and nutritional ketosis (and the recommended foods don't include chicken)

* weight loss (insulin resistant) (and the recommended foods do include chicken)

Anyway I think that's me all informationed out now, I've reached my fill level, and I'm going to make the most of the recommended food list and see what happens!

 

[AdamJames]

In your shoes wanting to get into ketosis would be my main aim so would reduce the carbs to less than 20g and eat as much of anything as you like until you feel full. That was how I shed the first 6 stones. Again I would suggest missing breakfast replacing it with a tea or coffee (either black or with cream) and just eating twice a day.
That should be fairly easily achievable for a month without feeling deprived. How about trying that and seeing how you go?

Just wanted to say thank you in particular for the suggestion about fasting or skipping meals which you've mentioned a few times.

As I posted a bit earlier in this thread, I've now done a fasting day, in line with the idea of the 5:2 diet (people at work have been suggesting that for a while, but not for diabetes reasons), and I chose the 'hard option'. I have no desire/need to keep up the hard option, I just wanted to see what would happen. Skipping one meal may have a very similar effect, there's lots for me to explore there.

It's the first time I've ever woken up with an fbg of 3.9. Recently I've been averaging about 5.3 I think.

In some ways it's a 'No **** Sherlock' thing, as my bg normally gets lower and lower overnight for example, so I might have presumed it would eventually bottom out, but the fact is I've never seen it happen before!

I suspect fasting might be superior to exercise, as illustrated by the fact that, at the end of the fasting day, I was worried when my bg was 3.7, so tried a tiny bit of exercise just to make sure my liver remembered what to do in that situation! After exercise, 10 minutes later, it was back up to 4.7, which was a relief, but also goes to show that bgs jump around when the body is trying to regulate.

So I imagine that, when going on a big walk, it never really gets down to the low 4s, and even if it did, it would get bumped back up quite a bit, so it's a bit haphazard. By comparison, maybe fasting allows things to gently settle down to the low level?

Early days yet, but I'm really liking the fasting thing (well, more the results than the doing it!).

 

[bulkbiker]

Just wanted to say thank you in particular for the suggestion about fasting or skipping meals which you've mentioned a few times.
Early days yet, but I'm really liking the fasting thing (well, more the results than the doing it!).

Once you get used to eating fewer carbs the hunger pangs go away so it becomes even easier. Glad you found it worked for your blood sugars.
There are lots of ways to tweak diet once you get things under control. But I always recommend going for decent HbA1c first then start to worry about the other stuff when you are more comfortable with keto eating.
I eat a lot of protein average so far this year 153g per day Which is probably near 2g per kg of lean body mass.
Maybe I should try less.. maybe I will.. eggs avocado and bacon for Feb anyone?