confused with the numbers game

[gilllsmaad]

Hi
Sorry if this goes on a bit
I am newly diagnosed last week but did know the week before that T2 is what I was to be told. So I came on here started the LCHF programme and my numbers are on avg between 7.9 before bf 4.6 today before lunch but mostly in the higher 5-mid to high 6. My question is that yesterday my dinner was very low carb. stir fry chick with stir fry veg (hardly any carrot) and fried cauliflower rice with peas pork spring onions . Was very late though as was working from 6-8.30 pm. 3hrs later my reading is 7.6 Today didn't manage to test until just before lunch which was 4.6 (bf this morning at 9.30 was 2 slices home made coconut/almond flour bread with chia seeds and cream cheese on top) i have today felt what i can only describe as a slight ****** feeling with a little tingly in the fingers. This feeling would normally indicate to me I need to eat and would have been carbs and sugar. is this normal is 4.6 too low? I am getting confused as thought i was eating mostly good low to no carb foods. Do foods only affect in the 2 hrs after eating or can I be affected from what ive eaten the next day?

 

[SockFiddler]

Wow... you've really hit the ground running - congratulations!

It's a complex thing, really, that you've asked, and I hope you'll attract more comprehensive answers from more experienced posters in time. But here's my attempt.

Carbs: Our bodies like carbs. They're easy, they release dopamine, we're addicted to them. Suddenly cutting them out can cause something called "Keto Flu" or "Carb Flu", where you feel just grouchy and under the weather for a bit. This is, basically, the same as going "Cold Turkey" with other addictions: your body likes, them, thinks it relies upon them and wants them back. Essentially, it's a metabolic temper-tantrum.

Now, here's the complex bit: how our 3 macronutrients (carbs, protein and fat) effect each other.

Protein will also spike your BG, but it's a much slower rise over a much longer period of time. And, in a glut of nutrition, your body will take the carbs first (big spike) and then the protein (slower, longer spike), but crave the carbs again, almost before it's done with the protein.

Fat, on the other hand, is a much richer nutrient and takes much longer to break down. But fat can also delay the high spike from carbs (so some lucky T2s can tolerate ice-cream: high fat and sugar, but the spike is flattened and delayed) so that, instead of a short, sharp rise, the carbs enter and leave our blood much more slowly.

It seems to me, from what you've written there, that you've not only gone cold turkey on the carbs, but you've not replaced them with a different macronutrient energy source. So, in a way, you've made it doubly-difficult for your body to adjust to anything, because there's no immediately available energy source.

We T2s pick fat as our Macro of Choice for a number of reasons:

1. Doesn't spike our BG like protein can.
2. It's cheaper (let's be honest)
3. It's tastier (cream, butter, animal fats, better cuts of meat, cheese etc)
4. "Fat Adaptation" is the most efficient way to persuade our metabolisms to lose weight.
5. Too much protein can compromise ketogenic diets (a whole other thing, not to worry about now).

Carb flu can be avoided by reducing your carb intake more gradually. It can be treated by increasing your intake of water, fat and salt and by going easy on yourself. It will last, at most, 2 weeks: most people experience it for between a week and 10 days. After a while you'll find you're not craving carbs. Then that you're not eating HUGE amounts of food. And then that you're not cooking huge amounts of food.

My advice, after this great long thing I've written, is to increase your carbs just a smidge and bring them down gently: your comfort and ability to manage this for the long-term is more important than hitting a super-low target right off the bat. Diabetes is a marathon, not a sprint and your body is still figuring out that things need to change.

Hang in there, keep posting. Others will be along shortly, I'm sure.

Sock x

 

[JoKalsbeek]

If your body's used to being high all the time, it takes a little while to adjust to good numbers. It's called a false hypo. Your body reacts as if you're too low, (too low being three-point-something, or lower) when you're not. It'll pass in a little while, and hey, you're doing great! Congrats on taking charge!

 

[kokhongw]

4.6 mmol is actually a beautiful level to be at.

However, for most of us T2D, we have become insulin resistant for far too long and our brain are happier at higher glucose levels. Our brain actually have developed impaired glucose uptake over time.

In a normal situation, when glucose is low, ketones level rises to provide a balance level of energy for our brain to function well. But when we are insulin resistant, there will be a mismatch. Glucose levels may drop and ketones levels have not caught up....it will take time for us to adjust to the new normal.

I find that a couple spoonsful of virgin coconut oil to be helpful. Your mileage may vary....

 

[paulus1]

when i hits the mid 4s i get very odd. so the start of hypos can vary but unless your on insulin or bg lowering meds you should not be getting any. the range to aim for is between 5-7 a little over or under wont hurt but try to keep in range for most of the time.

 

[Guzzler]

I agree with all that has been said except for a couple of things. My experience of Carb flu was very unpleasant, not just a matter of being a little grouchy. At its worst I was curled up in the middle of my bed hoping that the end would come soon and deciding that LCHF was ruinous to my health. That lasted two days but the overall carb flu lasted about ten days. Having said that, I had made a drastic cut in carbs that I had been warned not to do on this forum, it was too low too fast.
It takes a while for the body to adjust, you are doing well so hang in there and the strange effects will pass very soon.

 

[gilllsmaad]

Wow... you've really hit the ground running - congratulations!

It's a complex thing, really, that you've asked, and I hope you'll attract more comprehensive answers from more experienced posters in time. But here's my attempt.

Carbs: Our bodies like carbs. They're easy, they release dopamine, we're addicted to them. Suddenly cutting them out can cause something called "Keto Flu" or "Carb Flu", where you feel just grouchy and under the weather for a bit. This is, basically, the same as going "Cold Turkey" with other addictions: your body likes, them, thinks it relies upon them and wants them back. Essentially, it's a metabolic temper-tantrum.

Now, here's the complex bit: how our 3 macronutrients (carbs, protein and fat) effect each other.

Protein will also spike your BG, but it's a much slower rise over a much longer period of time. And, in a glut of nutrition, your body will take the carbs first (big spike) and then the protein (slower, longer spike), but crave the carbs again, almost before it's done with the protein.

Fat, on the other hand, is a much richer nutrient and takes much longer to break down. But fat can also delay the high spike from carbs (so some lucky T2s can tolerate ice-cream: high fat and sugar, but the spike is flattened and delayed) so that, instead of a short, sharp rise, the carbs enter and leave our blood much more slowly.

It seems to me, from what you've written there, that you've not only gone cold turkey on the carbs, but you've not replaced them with a different macronutrient energy source. So, in a way, you've made it doubly-difficult for your body to adjust to anything, because there's no immediately available energy source.

We T2s pick fat as our Macro of Choice for a number of reasons:

1. Doesn't spike our BG like protein can.
2. It's cheaper (let's be honest)
3. It's tastier (cream, butter, animal fats, better cuts of meat, cheese etc)
4. "Fat Adaptation" is the most efficient way to persuade our metabolisms to lose weight.
5. Too much protein can compromise ketogenic diets (a whole other thing, not to worry about now).

Carb flu can be avoided by reducing your carb intake more gradually. It can be treated by increasing your intake of water, fat and salt and by going easy on yourself. It will last, at most, 2 weeks: most people experience it for between a week and 10 days. After a while you'll find you're not craving carbs. Then that you're not eating HUGE amounts of food. And then that you're not cooking huge amounts of food.

My advice, after this great long thing I've written, is to increase your carbs just a smidge and bring them down gently: your comfort and ability to manage this for the long-term is more important than hitting a super-low target right off the bat. Diabetes is a marathon, not a sprint and your body is still figuring out that things need to change.

Hang in there, keep posting. Others will be along shortly, I'm sure.

Sock x

Thank you I think I understand what you are saying and maybe a little more carb may make me feel more me. I did have about 3-4 roast spuds with sunday dinner oh and made my own apple sauce which I confess was a whole bramely apple to me alone but nothing else added. I am trying to eat more fat too with cream in coffee peanut butter on celery and olives and cheese but I guess you are right and it will take time. I'm inpatient and want to feel well NOW and be healthy. Only myself to blame as when my thyroid packed up i didn't change my eating then and weight piled on. onwards and upwards then! x

 

[gilllsmaad]

\

I agree with all that has been said except for a couple of things. My experience of Carb flu was very unpleasant, not just a matter of being a little grouchy. At its worst I was curled up in the middle of my bed hoping that the end would come soon and deciding that LCHF was ruinous to my health. That lasted two days but the overall carb flu lasted about ten days. Having said that, I had made a drastic cut in carbs that I had been warned not to do on this forum, it was too low too fast.
It takes a while for the body to adjust, you are doing well so hang in there and the strange effects will pass very soon.

It certainly is only easy when you've learned it . Thank you x

 

[gilllsmaad]

when i hits the mid 4s i get very odd. so the start of hypos can vary but unless your on insulin or bg lowering meds you should not be getting any. the range to aim for is between 5-7 a little over or under wont hurt but try to keep in range for most of the time.

Hi Paulus1
I'm not on any meds for T2 just doing it by diet first as I didn't want to take anything else I shovel enough down as it is. If things dont settle i will seek more advice. x

 

[Resurgam]

As it is still early days your body might be a bit shocked, and your normal processes not yet be working to full effect.
I would caution against having meals including foods which are high carb so early on - potato and apple are quite high carb, and for many would cause a spike. I try to keep my meals about the same amount of carbs - that is a few carbs for my morning meal and them more in the evenings as that seems to be what keeps me in the normal range.
Some people need to do the reverse, but that is where a blood glucose meter comes in, to reveal how you react.

 

[gilllsmaad]

4.6 mmol is actually a beautiful level to be at.

However, for most of us T2D, we have become insulin resistant for far too long and our brain are happier at higher glucose levels. Our brain actually have developed impaired glucose uptake over time.

In a normal situation, when glucose is low, ketones level rises to provide a balance level of energy for our brain to function well. But when we are insulin resistant, there will be a mismatch. Glucose levels may drop and ketones levels have not caught up....it will take time for us to adjust to the new normal.

I find that a couple spoonsful of virgin coconut oil to be helpful. Your mileage may vary....

Thank you kokhongw I love coconut oil and in my coffee too

 

[gilllsmaad]

If your body's used to being high all the time, it takes a little while to adjust to good numbers. It's called a false hypo. Your body reacts as if you're too low, (too low being three-point-something, or lower) when you're not. It'll pass in a little while, and hey, you're doing great! Congrats on taking charge!

JoKalsbeek
Thank you i do hope it passes soon and to be honest i dont feel I'm doing well cos i feel i need carbs or sugar i want to grab sweets or something i know i cant have anymore

 

[JoKalsbeek]

Believe it or not, those cravings do go away. It'll be a little while, but it comes with kicking the habit. (Sugar is, after all, highly addictive). Sadly, no patches or gum to help, but it does get better. All low-carbers have been there, just like quitting sigarettes. It's hardest at the start! One thing tho; did I read your thyroid's wonky? I have Hashimoto's, and when my meds aren't exactly right, it messes with my bloodsugar. I get hypo when I shouldn't, as diet-controlled T2's don't, usually. I eat 6 meals a day, (3 proper ones and 3 snacks) at around 75 grams of carb in total. If I'm active I might need a little more. Another good reason to test regularly! Going no carb might affect your thyroid and weight as well. (I started gaining weight because the stupid thing thought I needed more fat piled on. Aaargh!). All of this is specific to my body, you'll find out in time what works for you. No rush. It's a bit of a balancing act, but a doable one. My meter is my best friend. And my packet of emergency Oreo's.

 

[gilllsmaad]

As it is still early days your body might be a bit shocked, and your normal processes not yet be working to full effect.
I would caution against having meals including foods which are high carb so early on - potato and apple are quite high carb, and for many would cause a spike. I try to keep my meals about the same amount of carbs - that is a few carbs for my morning meal and them more in the evenings as that seems to be what keeps me in the normal range.
Some people need to do the reverse, but that is where a blood glucose meter comes in, to reveal how you react.

Tks Resurgam I did know that the pots and apple would not be good but found it hard to not have as ive been so used to it . i am using a monitor which is what was confusing me with the numbers as it seems to be so varied and at times higher than i would of thought from what i had been eating. ive just gone from4.6 before lunch to 6.8 2hrs after eating green salad feta olives brie houmous sundried tom (1 piece) and cream in coffee which is what is making me confused

 

[Bluetit1802]

Tks Resurgam I did know that the pots and apple would not be good but found it hard to not have as ive been so used to it . i am using a monitor which is what was confusing me with the numbers as it seems to be so varied and at times higher than i would of thought from what i had been eating. ive just gone from4.6 before lunch to 6.8 2hrs after eating green salad feta olives brie houmous sundried tom (1 piece) and cream in coffee which is what is making me confused

Have you added up the total carbs in your meal, including any dressing you had and the cream?

 

[Resurgam]

Humus is beans, and sundried tomato is quite sweet - that sort of rise is to be expected - the cream is good, as it slows down absorption and has almost no carbs. You were still below 7mmol/l - which is really good.

 

[SockFiddler]

Only myself to blame as when my thyroid packed up i didn't change my eating then and weight piled on. onwards and upwards then! x

Nope!

Diabetes IS NOT what you get when you lack willpower. It's not a punishment for bad choices. It's not the ultimate proof that your only competitive sport is eating contests. It is, quite simply, and indicator that you ate all the carbs, as recommended by every advertising campaign, doctor, nutritionist blah blah, just like all of us did.

There is no blame. Reject your guilt. You have not taken control of your destructive eating habits; you have taken responsibility for an illness that has been caused by the modern, "healthy" diet, and it could well have been (I'm not a doctor, so you'll have to research) that insulin resistance played a part in your thyroid issues and not the other way around.

This is not your fault; stop blaming yourself, you're doing great.

x

(Special love to @Guzzler and other Carb Flu sufferers - I wasn't trying to minimise the symptoms and your experiences, and gosh how I remember begging my son in tears to go buy me a packet of crisps - and my anger when he refused, but to be optimistic for the OP. It's pretty awful to confess to people you feel horrid and for the first responder to reply, "Yeah, that's going to get worse". )

 

[Guzzler]

Nope!

Diabetes IS NOT what you get when you lack willpower. It's not a punishment for bad choices. It's not the ultimate proof that your only competitive sport is eating contests. It is, quite simply, and indicator that you ate all the carbs, as recommended by every advertising campaign, doctor, nutritionist blah blah, just like all of us did.

There is no blame. Reject your guilt. You have not taken control of your destructive eating habits; you have taken responsibility for an illness that has been caused by the modern, "healthy" diet, and it could well have been (I'm not a doctor, so you'll have to research) that insulin resistance played a part in your thyroid issues and not the other way around.

This is not your fault; stop blaming yourself, you're doing great.

x

(Special love to @Guzzler and other Carb Flu sufferers - I wasn't trying to minimise the symptoms and your experiences, and gosh how I remember begging my son in tears to go buy me a packet of crisps - and my anger when he refused, but to be optimistic for the OP. It's pretty awful to confess to people you feel horrid and for the first responder to reply, "Yeah, that's going to get worse". )

Ah, but for many it doesn't get worse because it depends on the speed of the reduction. With my A1c at dx so high and the 'threat' of insulin made by the DN I was stupified into action and having ignored advice posted here I went hell for leather dropping my carb count to as close to zero as I thought possible. I suppose you could call it going cold turkey. This is why the advice for a graduated reduction is so important because I feel that there may have been some people who, in the same position I found myself at dx, made the same mistake and were completely put off the whole idea and abandoned low carbing. I found myself seriously questioning the LCHF ethos as a surefire way to aid health because I felt so rotten and feeling so rotten couldn't be good for me, could it?
I am grateful for the advice I was given at the time and I am glad that I listened to the reasons for the carb flu that made sense. If I had my time over would I do it the same way? Probably, because my default setting is Panic!

 

[gilllsmaad]

Have you added up the total carbs in your meal, including any dressing you had and the cream?

hi yes lunch was 9.1g

 

[gilllsmaad]

Nope!

Diabetes IS NOT what you get when you lack willpower. It's not a punishment for bad choices. It's not the ultimate proof that your only competitive sport is eating contests. It is, quite simply, and indicator that you ate all the carbs, as recommended by every advertising campaign, doctor, nutritionist blah blah, just like all of us did.

There is no blame. Reject your guilt. You have not taken control of your destructive eating habits; you have taken responsibility for an illness that has been caused by the modern, "healthy" diet, and it could well have been (I'm not a doctor, so you'll have to research) that insulin resistance played a part in your thyroid issues and not the other way around.

This is not your fault; stop blaming yourself, you're doing great.

x

(Special love to @Guzzler and other Carb Flu sufferers - I wasn't trying to minimise the symptoms and your experiences, and gosh how I remember begging my son in tears to go buy me a packet of crisps - and my anger when he refused, but to be optimistic for the OP. It's pretty awful to confess to people you feel horrid and for the first responder to reply, "Yeah, that's going to get worse". )

Ah bless you and thank you for your comments and that will be interesting reading on the insulin resistance playing a part in the thyroid dysfunction. I have to try and get my gp on side and sort my thyroid meds and get me some T3fingers knees eyes crossed)