Fasting for Autophagy

[Brunneria]

I think part of the problem is there’s no way of “knowing” that autophagy is happening.. so while Dr Longo has his theory I’m not so sure he “knows” what works although it seems pretty likely that water fasting contains nothing that should cause it not to occur.

That makes perfect sense.
I am just someone who finds 'water only' to be a VERY difficult challenge, whereas 'Water, Herb Tea and a splash of cream in Coffee or CoffeeSubstitute' is a much more doable proposition - especially over several days.

 

[bulkbiker]

That makes perfect sense.
I am just someone who finds 'water only' to be a VERY difficult challenge, whereas 'Water, Herb Tea and a splash of cream in Coffee or CoffeeSubstitute' is a much more doable proposition - especially over several days.

Completely agree I have never managed more than about 18 hours water fasting so have huge admiration for those that do it.

 

[kokhongw]

@bulkbiker Dr Valter Longo has been doing fasting research for quite some time...I think he has a fairly deep understanding of how fasting affects the autoimmune system. The fasting mimicking diet is just that, to mimic the effects of fasting, most notably for patients undergoing chemotherapy and make it more platable and acceptable in a clinical setting that has fasting phobia, where fasting = starvation = cruelty = denial of human rights...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=valter+longo

It just happens that cycles of fasting also works out well for chronic diseases like...T2D...

 

[bulkbiker]

@bulkbiker Dr Valter Longo has been doing fasting research for quite some time...I think he has a fairly deep understanding of how fasting affects the autoimmune system. The fasting mimicking diet is just that, to mimic the effects of fasting, most notably for patients undergoing chemotherapy and make it more platable and acceptable in a clinical setting that has fasting phobia, where fasting = starvation = cruelty = denial of human rights...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=valter+longo

It just happens that cycles of fasting also works out well for chronic diseases like...T2D...

I'm well aware of Dr Longo (although I have never managed to watch one of his videos through to the end). I would however hazard a guess that even he doesn't know the full story about autophagy because it is still cutting edge. His FMD may be good but I tend to think that fasting to create autophagy is probably more effective with just water or (controversially) dry. There have been lots of claims that dry fasting is even more effective although should only be followed for far shorter periods of time. I'm still doing research on that one before trying it. Some people even avoid washing their hands or showering while dry fasting.. Its an interesting subject.

 

[kokhongw]

Dr Mercola sums it up pretty well here in a recent article.
https://articles.mercola.com/sites/...02/fasting-mimicking-calorie-restriction.aspx

Water Fasting Versus Fasting Mimicking Diet
It bears mentioning that Longo's fasting mimicking diet is not a water-only fast. The fasting mimicking diet involves restricting your calories to 800 to 1,100 calories per day for five days each month, opposed to no-calorie fasting. It was primarily developed to improve compliance, as many find a five-day water-only fast to be too difficult. The low-calorie strategy also helps reduce the likelihood of adverse side effects, while retaining the benefits.

 

[Brunneria]

Actually, it doesn't seem fair to mention Volter Lungo and his diet without linking to it
so here is a direct link to a page showing what is in the diet
https://prolon.co.uk/what-is-prolon/

and here is a link to a couple of articles about it - showing a range of reactions.
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-...weight-loss-natural-plant-based-a7518081.html
and
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/health-fitness/nutrition/why-weve-all-been-doing-the-fast-diet-wrong/

Since calorie intake on the diet is between 1,000 and 750 a day for 5 days, and is low protein and plant based, there are strong parallels with the Newcastle Diet, and the 5:2.

Having read all the above I would be more than happy to just fast on tea, coffee, water, herb tea and a splash of cream, instead. Cheaper too.

 

[bulkbiker]

Dr Mercola sums it up pretty well here in a recent article.
https://articles.mercola.com/sites/...02/fasting-mimicking-calorie-restriction.aspx

I'm still a Longo sceptic but as no-one will ever pay for a FMD versus water only or dry fasting study I think it has to be each to their own. Until I win the Euromillions then I'll back some research.

 

[Bluetit1802]

Please can someone tell me what the point of fasting for autophagy is? I don't fully understand what autophagy is, and as I've never fasted or felt the need to, I am really curious and would like to know how autophagy comes into it, in simple language! (I do proclaim to fast around 17 or 18 hours a day, but in that time I have 1 coffee with cream and 1 cup of tea with skimmed milk, so not a genuine fast). I just note that @Goonergal has a lovely low BMI after losing gallons of weight, and an HbA1c of 31, so am perplexed and curious.

 

[bulkbiker]

Please can someone tell me what the point of fasting for autophagy is? I don't fully understand what autophagy is, and as I've never fasted or felt the need to, I am really curious and would like to know how autophagy comes into it, in simple language! (I do proclaim to fast around 17 or 18 hours a day, but in that time I have 1 coffee with cream and 1 cup of tea with skimmed milk, so not a genuine fast). I just note that @Goonergal has a lovely low BMI after losing gallons of weight, and an HbA1c of 31, so am perplexed and curious.

The simplest way of looking at it is that it's like servicing your car.
You get rid of the old stuff and recycle bits of your body.
It is also developing a reputation for helping with things like tumour reduction in cancer patients.
There's a lot of info on the wikipedia page
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autophagy
but it is still at the very edge of scientific understanding at the moment.

 

[Brunneria]

@Bluetit1802

You will find a whole range of ideas and explanations about autophagy across the internet.
I was looking at Wikipedia earlier and that gives a nice clear explanation of how the process affects a whole range of organisms, from yeast upwards, including arthritic knee joints.

But basically the idea is that by reducing nutrient intake the body is triggered into a kind of spring cleaning, where it hoovers up unneeded cells and 'recycles spare bits'. Yes, that is an absurdly simplified image! lol.

Lungo is not the only one who promotes it as a way for the body to deal with cancer and to slow down the aging process, and is donating the proceeds of his Fasting Mimicking Diet into supporting cancer victims and research on the subject.

Of course there is a huge movement from sensible to wacky, with headlines such as 'is this the secret to immortality?'

As with anything, read every web link with a hefty dose of low-calorie scepticism!

 

[Bluetit1802]

Thank you @bulkbiker and @Brunneria

I have some reading to do!

 

[Goonergal]

Please can someone tell me what the point of fasting for autophagy is? I don't fully understand what autophagy is, and as I've never fasted or felt the need to, I am really curious and would like to know how autophagy comes into it, in simple language! (I do proclaim to fast around 17 or 18 hours a day, but in that time I have 1 coffee with cream and 1 cup of tea with skimmed milk, so not a genuine fast). I just note that @Goonergal has a lovely low BMI after losing gallons of weight, and an HbA1c of 31, so am perplexed and curious.

Hi @Bluetit1802

I am not so knowledgeable as others on this topic but the reason I’m giving this a try is despite my weight loss, BMI and HbA1c, I have a larger than optimal waistline and excess fat (and a bit of loose skin) around my torso.

As I understand it Autophagy can assist with all of this. Intermittent fasting (during which I have consumed hot drinks with cream and sometimes Diet Coke) has served me well and I’d like to see if I can go the final mile.

I’d like it to work but am open to the possibility that it may not, in which case learning to maintain at my current levels will be far from a disaster!

There is a good description of Autophagy on diet doctor

https://www.dietdoctor.com/renew-body-fasting-autophagy

 

[Bluetit1802]

Hi @Bluetit1802

I am not so knowledgeable as others on this topic but the reason I’m giving this a try is despite my weight loss, BMI and HbA1c, I have a larger than optimal waistline and excess fat (and a bit of loose skin) around my torso.

As I understand it Autophagy can assist with all of this. Intermittent fasting (during which I have consumed hot drinks with cream and sometimes Diet Coke) has served me well and I’d like to see if I can go the final mile.

I’d like it to work but am open to the possibility that it may not, in which case learning to maintain at my current levels will be far from a disaster!

There is a good description of Autophagy on diet doctor

https://www.dietdoctor.com/renew-body-fasting-autophagy

Thank you. I am beginning to understand.

 

[Goonergal]

Well, I didn’t make it. Much harder than I anticipated. Did last 24 hours water only, so that is a first.

Woke up slightly hungry, which isn’t usual, but that passed. By around noon I was very hungry and BG was 3.8 but ploughed on. By around 3pm was ravenous and feeling quite nauseous. Had I been at home would probably have caved at that point, but was out with friends so stuck to sparkling water hoping it would pass.

No such luck. Home around 5pm and decided to try a tea with 20ml cream. Wasn’t enough so have eaten dinner.

Drank a lot of water, and added a small amount of salt to some of it as well as taking a magnesium supplement so I don’t think that was an issue. Will try again at some point - my first attempt at a 23/1 fast didn’t get past lunch so think it’s worth another go.

Thanks to all for encouragement and advice.

.

 

[bulkbiker]

Well, I didn’t make it. Much harder than I anticipated. Did last 24 hours water only, so that is a first.

Woke up slightly hungry, which isn’t usual, but that passed. By around noon I was very hungry and BG was 3.8 but ploughed on. By around 3pm was ravenous and feeling quite nauseous. Had I been at home would probably have caved at that point, but was out with friends so stuck to sparkling water hoping it would pass.

No such luck. Home around 5pm and decided to try a tea with 20ml cream. Wasn’t enough so have eaten dinner.

Drank a lot of water, and added a small amount of salt to some of it as well as taking a magnesium supplement so I don’t think that was an issue. Will try again at some point - my first attempt at a 23/1 fast didn’t get past lunch so think it’s worth another go.

Thanks to all for encouragement and advice.

.

If you want a companion next time let me know..! well done first 24 hours brilliant.

 

[Goonergal]

If you want a companion next time let me know..! well done first 24 hours brilliant.

Thanks, will do!

 

[Guzzler]

Walter Longo said in an interview that 12/13 hours is fasting at which point I thought I could attempt that but then after seeing people that do days of wet fasting I am not so sure. I have often gone 12 hours but have had hot drinks with either cream or a splash of milk in them. Still, at least I am not doing the opposite.

Hope you have another go, @Goonergal as this was your first attempt and it was a good one. Onwards and upwards as they say.

 

[Goonergal]

Walter Longo said in an interview that 12/13 hours is fasting at which point I thought I could attempt that but then after seeing people that do days of wet fasting I am not so sure. I have often gone 12 hours but have had hot drinks with either cream or a splash of milk in them. Still, at least I am not doing the opposite.

Hope you have another go, @Goonergal as this was your first attempt and it was a good one. Onwards and upwards as they say.

Thanks @Guzzler I will have another go. I took my before and after measurements and 24 hours made a noticeable difference - half a centimetre off my waist, 0.4kg weight loss and ketones up by 1.2 - to 3.3, which is about as high as I want them to go, so will be making sure I eat enough today.

 

[kokhongw]

ketones up by 1.2 - to 3.3,

If your glucose is low, eg in the 4s and your ketones are 3+ with a 24hr fast, I would think you are pretty fat adapted and doing very well.

Typically it would take up to 48 hours to reach that level and as can be see in this chart, ketones between 5-7 mmols is where it become the main fuel in a multi-day fast.

 

[ickihun]

Jason Fung allows cream - in limited amounts - but not sure whether it would interfere with Autophagy. To date I’ve had a couple of cups of tea with cream on 23/1 fasting days. Wondering whether water only will help reduce my waist.

Will there be a chance of doing it again if cream is no help?