DESMOND COURSE 'T2D CAN'T EVER BE REVERSED'

[rab5]

I rather dislike the use of the word 'smug' in the context.

To me, a smug person is someone who deserves to have the smugness wiped off their face as rapidly as possible. They are usually cocky gloaters, complacent and with a tinge of arrogance. The kind of person who says 'If I can do it, then anyone can' - usually without the slightest comprehension that other people have different bodies, different metabolisms and diffferent health challenges. The thought of there being a Club for these people is pretty unpleasant.

So smugness is not something I wish to emulate.

On the other hand, excellent control of blood glucose is aspirational to me.
So is being healthy, active and aware that not everyone gets to draw that long straw, no matter how much effort they put in.
Along with an understanding that the method to achieving that control varies hugely between us all.

I don’t think for one second the use of the smug comment was alluding to your description. I think it was said in jest. At least that’s how I received it. Perhaps I need a reset lmao

 

[Brunneria]

I don’t think for one second the use of the smug comment was alluding to your description. I think it was said in jest. At least that’s how I received it. Perhaps I need a reset lmao

Perhaps I need the reset.

I am always absolutely delighted when people do achieve wonderful levels of control. I just think that 'smug' is an unfortunate choice of word, especially when some people try so hard and, despite Herculean efforts, get nowhere near that level of control.

 

[eggs11]

I've just watched professor Roy Taylor's video on how to reverse diabetes. And I'm thinking of the Newcastle study. I thinking the people involed haven't reversed it but are in remission and well controlled.

It is interesting to look up Prof Roy Taylor's definition of reversal for the purposes of the Newcastle Diet studies - it is an HbA1c below 48 - not below 42 (prediabetes) as I expected it to be. I don't have it to hand and others on here might recall better than me but I think the HbA1c had to be achieved for a while without meds. But regardless - I guess these Newcastle Diet patients could have an HbA1c of 47 and still be considered reversed as far as the study was concerned.

 

[There is no Spoon]

Perhaps I need the reset.

Dam my dyslexia I read that as "need the rest"

I was all set to make a devastatingly witty & pithy joke about snooker.
Anyway more tea Vicar?

 

[bamba]

It is interesting to look up Prof Roy Taylor's definition of reversal for the purposes of the Newcastle Diet studies - it is an HbA1c below 48 - not below 42 (prediabetes) as I expected it to be. I don't have it to hand and others on here might recall better than me but I think the HbA1c had to be achieved for a while without meds. But regardless - I guess these Newcastle Diet patients could have an HbA1c of 47 and still be considered reversed as far as the study was concerned.

At the Diabetes Insider Event run by DUK, I had a chance to ask Prof. Taylor, directly, as it had not been made clear in his presentation what he meant by reversed.
He stated that it was on HbA1c and Faasting Glucose only - and did not account for post prandial difference or OGTT.

 

[Lally123]

It is why I coined the 'membership of the smug club' description - I know I can eat more carbs than when diagnosed, but I decline to do so on a regular basis because it makes me gain weight, feel lethargic, alters my mental state and it would eventually cause my BG levels to start to climb again.
What is called 'eating normally' these days is simply not natural, nor healthy nor is it promoting of well being and I think it should be discouraged for everyone, not just diabetics

I suppose that depends on what you mean by eating normally? Stuffing your face full of a whole load of processed foods takeaways and ready meals isn't a great idea for anyone, but I don't agree that everyone should eat a very low carb diet? If you're not diabetic and you eat balanced healthy food, that's never going to harm you?

 

[rab5]

I suppose that depends on what you mean by eating normally? Stuffing your face full of a whole load of processed foods takeaways and ready meals isn't a great idea for anyone, but I don't agree that everyone should eat a very low carb diet? If you're not diabetic and you eat balanced healthy food, that's never going to harm you?

Eating the normal balanced food types recommended by lets say the NHS is and has harmed everyone. You only have to look at the high numbers of people who are overweight, diabetic, suffer heart conditions etc etc. All recommended to eat a 'balanced diet'. Sugar/starches are not a nutrient we require. They are not essential although they are lovely lol

 

[NewTD2]

I was told by my dietitian since I have gone into "remission" I now have non-diabetic blood glucose levels.

I asked him if I can now eat anything I want. He said to me quite clearly, "Absolutely. You can eat anything you want as long as you watch your portions!"

So I can have a bit of cake, ice cream, a bit of chocolates, a bit of pizza, KFC, McDonalds, a bit of all you can eat Chinese buffet, a bit of honey, a bit of syrup, Pepsi, Coke, sweet fruit juices, a bit of **** etc.

As you can see - the advice I have been given by the NHS is just APPALLING, IRRESPONSIBLE, STUPID!!!

Edited by moderator for language

 

[rab5]

I was told by my dietitian since I have gone into "remission" I now have non-diabetic blood glucose levels.

I asked him if I can now eat anything I want. He said to me quite clearly, "Absolutely. You can eat anything you want as long as you watch your portions!"

So I can have a bit of cake, ice cream, a bit of chocolates, a bit of pizza, KFC, McDonalds, a bit of all you can eat Chinese buffet, a bit of honey, a bit of syrup, Pepsi, Coke, sweet fruit juices, a bit of **** etc.

As you can see - the advice I have been given by the NHS is just APPALLING, IRRESPONSIBLE, STUPID!!!

What he said lol

 

[Lally123]

Eating the normal balanced food types recommended by lets say the NHS is and has harmed everyone. You only have to look at the high numbers of people who are overweight, diabetic, suffer heart conditions etc etc. All recommended to eat a 'balanced diet'. Sugar/starches are not a nutrient we require. They are not essential although they are lovely lol

Would have to disagree that the vast majority of people who aren't diabetic would be harmed by eating a healthy balanced diet comprised of complex carbs, protein and plenty of fruit and veg. I have a couple of friends on slimming world who have lost lots of weight by eating this very sort of diet. Do you have any statistics or sources for how the nhs dietician recommended diets for health are harmful, I can't see any logical reason why it should? I know that lifestyle is a huge challenge for any person to.change but there are a whole load of people out there who may be overweight or.eat unhealthily but have never received NHS dietary advice and/or ignore it if they have?

 

[rab5]

Would have to disagree that the vast majority of people who aren't diabetic would be harmed by eating a healthy balanced diet comprised of complex carbs, protein and plenty of fruit and veg. I have a couple of friends on slimming world who have lost lots of weight by eating this very sort of diet. Do you have any statistics or sources for how the nhs dietician recommended diets for health are harmful, I can't see any logical reason why it should? I know that lifestyle is a huge challenge for any person to.change but there are a whole load of people out there who may be overweight or.eat unhealthily but have never received NHS dietary advice and/or ignore it if they have?

In one word...... carbs

Unnecessary

 

[bulkbiker]

It is interesting to look up Prof Roy Taylor's definition of reversal for the purposes of the Newcastle Diet studies - it is an HbA1c below 48 - not below 42 (prediabetes) as I expected it to be. I don't have it to hand and others on here might recall better than me but I think the HbA1c had to be achieved for a while without meds. But regardless - I guess these Newcastle Diet patients could have an HbA1c of 47 and still be considered reversed as far as the study was concerned.

That is indeed correct and in my view a fairly major flaw in the study.. However I notice that Virta health used the same criteria in their recently published study on low carb diets too, again in my view incorrectly., but perhaps it is an "industry" standard for reversal. At least they are using the same criteria although I think that Virta got to 60% as against ND 48%.

 

[There is no Spoon]

Would have to disagree that the vast majority of people who aren't diabetic would be harmed by eating a healthy balanced diet comprised of complex carbs, protein and plenty of fruit and veg

Hi Lally,
There is a nice heart warming documentary on Netflix just now "The Magic Pill" which tackles this idea of what we consider to be " a healthy balanced diet" you will be amazed by the positive & wide ranging health impact it has on the participants.

Do you have any statistics or sources for how the nhs dietician recommended diets for health are harmful, I can't see any logical reason why it should?

There is a section with a Dr put on trial for ethics, for a year after tweeting someone should go LCHF. He had to legally prove that the recommended "healthy balanced diet" has been medically proven to be bad advice.
He was acquitted.

I believe the full program is linked in on this thread if you're interested and don't have Netflix.
https://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/the-magic-pill.144252/page-2#post-1769843

...bag...

 

[Bluetit1802]

It is interesting to look up Prof Roy Taylor's definition of reversal for the purposes of the Newcastle Diet studies - it is an HbA1c below 48 - not below 42 (prediabetes) as I expected it to be. I don't have it to hand and others on here might recall better than me but I think the HbA1c had to be achieved for a while without meds. But regardless - I guess these Newcastle Diet patients could have an HbA1c of 47 and still be considered reversed as far as the study was concerned.

As @bulkbiker said, this is absolutely true. When the results were published late last year there was at at least one long thread on here, mostly saying just that. The successful participants had to have an HbA1c below 48 after being med free for (I think) 2 months. They were then classed as reversed, even if the HbA1c were 47. That to me is not reversed. It may be under the diabetes threshold for diagnosis, but is still a very risky position.

Maybe as more and more of us get down to non-diabetic levels, including post meal, someone somewhere will sort out more acceptable criteria for the term "reversed"

 

[eggs11]

Would have to disagree that the vast majority of people who aren't diabetic would be harmed by eating a healthy balanced diet comprised of complex carbs, protein and plenty of fruit and veg. I have a couple of friends on slimming world who have lost lots of weight by eating this very sort of diet. Do you have any statistics or sources for how the nhs dietician recommended diets for health are harmful, I can't see any logical reason why it should? I know that lifestyle is a huge challenge for any person to.change but there are a whole load of people out there who may be overweight or.eat unhealthily but have never received NHS dietary advice and/or ignore it if they have?

I was a member of Slimming World and did lose over a stone in recent years but the weight went back on very quickly as even though I was eating plenty I was always hungry - because I was filling up on lots of 'healthy' carbs and there was very little fat in my diet - less than 2 years later I'm diagnosed as t2. My whole adult life I've eaten low fat, whole grains. I am of the belief that Slimming World/low fat may work for some but for those genetically predisposed to diabetes it's not necessarily a good idea.

 

[Lally123]

In one word...... carbs

Unnecessary

In non diabetics? Not true. And very few people who are not diabetic would want to eat that way anyway. Let's face It, most diabetics don't eat very low carb. So even if it was an NHS recommended diet, how many people do you think would adopt that approach lifelong?

 

[bulkbiker]

In non diabetics? Not true. And very few people who are not diabetic would want to eat that way anyway. Let's face It, most diabetics don't eat very low carb. So even if it was an NHS recommended diet, how many people do you think would adopt that approach lifelong?

I guessing those that wanted to avoid complications and medication perhaps.. also of those people you mention who aren't Type 2 I think you need to add "yet" if as we suspect weight gain is another symptom of insulin derangement than it may be only a matter of time before those non-D's become D's.

 

[dbr10]

I guessing those that wanted to avoid complications and medication perhaps.. also of those people you mention who aren't Type 2 I think you need to add "yet" if as we suspect weight gain is another symptom of insulin derangement than it may be only a matter of time before those non-D's become D's.

I've been happy to try it for three years now.

 

[Lally123]

I was a member of Slimming World and did lose over a stone in recent years but the weight went back on very quickly as even though I was eating plenty I was always hungry - because I was filling up on lots of 'healthy' carbs and there was very little fat in my diet - less than 2 years later I'm diagnosed as t2. My whole adult life I've eaten low fat, whole grains. I am of the belief that Slimming World/low fat may work for some but for those genetically predisposed to diabetes it's not necessarily a good idea.

I'm not disagreeing with that, anyone who has a high risk of diabetes would do well to monitor their carb intake and reduce. My point was really where it was suggested that a low carb diet should be prescribed to everyone not just diabetics. Which personally I think is a non starter and unnecessary for most non.diabetic people. I think it's very easy to think that of something works for you it will work for everyone but it simply doesn't and diet is a very personal thing and involves so many different factors, it's impossible to be that prescriptive. So the best thing is to advise people generally on a healthier way of eating. I would also guess that most people referred to dieticians are, if not diabetic, very overweight likely due to poor dietary choices. And therefore surely it's better to advise a healthy diet as in complex carbs fruit veg etc than it is to advocate an extreme way of eating such as very low carb (Which the failure rate would be massive), because that would be an improvement on their previous lifestyle. There are figures around about non compliance with advice, the numbers are large. It's not always about the advice that's given but more about personal responsibility and ability and inclination to act on the advice that's given. It's very easy to blame the NHS for people getting fatter but even when given the advice most people don't take it on board

 

[eggs11]

I'm not disagreeing with that, anyone who has a high risk of diabetes would do well to monitor their carb intake and reduce. My point was really where it was suggested that a low carb diet should be prescribed to everyone not just diabetics. Which personally I think is a non starter and unnecessary for most non.diabetic people. I think it's very easy to think that of something works for you it will work for everyone but it simply doesn't and diet is a very personal thing and involves so many different factors, it's impossible to be that prescriptive. So the best thing is to advise people generally on a healthier way of eating. I would also guess that most people referred to dieticians are, if not diabetic, very overweight likely due to poor dietary choices. And therefore surely it's better to advise a healthy diet as in complex carbs fruit veg etc than it is to advocate an extreme way of eating such as very low carb (Which the failure rate would be massive), because that would be an improvement on their previous lifestyle. There are figures around about non compliance with advice, the numbers are large. It's not always about the advice that's given but more about personal responsibility and ability and inclination to act on the advice that's given. It's very easy to blame the NHS for people getting fatter but even when given the advice most people don't take it on board

Totally understand what you're saying - unfortunately there is lots of evidence that 'a healthy diet as in complex carbs fruit veg etc' has actually helped cause the obesity epidemic, as it is so carb based - even if the carbs are healthy eg wholegrain pasta - that it is actually unbalanced for humans - look up how obesity has increased massively since the current guidelines as to what constitutes a healthy diet were changed to reduce fat and increase complex carbs. Dr Jason Fung's book The Obesity Code gives really good insight into all of this.