Type 2 TYPE OF FAT I CAN EAT

[WuTwo]

I like olive oil (plain or infused) - drizzled on salads and veg. Occasionally I have bread and then I might pour some olive oil into a saucer and dip - lovely with a cherry tomato or two. I am aware that when carb counting seriously, the bread is one of life's undesirables but I post this in case non carb-counters are reading..... (after all, I was .....)

Also, nut oils are scrummy!

 

[Q007]

I’d echo what several have said. Til you can read up enough to convince you, or get a cholesterol test showing positive results after trialling it for yourself, choose “good fats” like olive oil, butter, nuts, oily fish etc Avoid “low fat” anything, margarines, seed oils and vegetable oils. Avoiding these and processed foods will pretty much avoid trans fats anyway.

Some people don’t need to add a lot more than that to feel satiated. Particularly if you have weight to lose then that’s where some of your fat requirement will come from. Some do need a bit more but it’s not eating daily blocks of lard that we advocate!

Keto, and to some degree all low carb variations, is about setting a limit of carbs, reaching a decent and reasonable amount of protein to protect muscles etc and then adding enough fat for energy and satiety. Fat is an adjustable lever.

All the levels can vary depending on an individual, not just their gender and height but also activities and metabolism and comorbities and degree of insulin resistance and longevity of diabetes etc etc etc. This is why we can’t give a carb, protein or fat level that is right for you. We all pick our best guess from our research and see if it gives enough improvement. If it does great. If it doesn’t then we adjust it.

100 carbs sounds a reasonable place to start. It’s low enough for some but be aware for many it isn’t low enough to get the desired results and may need lowering in the future once you have tested hb1ac at that level or are still seeing big rises between pre and post prandial readings. If you’re hungry or tired choose more fats that you are happy to eat. Make sure you drink enough and keep electrolyte levels up as they can fall without processed foods and with more fluids. Ie add a little salt or eat magnesium and potassium rich foods.

Would a magnesium supplement help for loss of electrolytes? I take a D3 or Chlorocalciferol as I dont get out much and my full bloods show D3 as normal, I've read a lot about magnesium but it comes in so many different forms it's which one to pick.

I think I'll have to go off site for solid answers, but I do appreciate people sharing their stories of what works for them.

Thank you indeed, Q.

 

[Q007]

Reading /subscribing to zoeharcombe.com shoukd be able to assuage your concerns about saturated fats and going onto a lchf diet. She agrees that transfats are bad for everyone. She is a nutritionist with PhD whose PhD was in researching heart disease and saturated fats. That is scientific research being analysed. You can either believe false scienceas many health professionals do or those who have looked at the science and found the faults, falseness and sometimes deception that has occurred.
I believe there is enough in the references given you to weigh up the two sides.
There are a number of levels of low carb diet, 120 g carbs and down. The benefits of a ketogenic diet occurs with a very low carb diet = 35 g carb per day. These benefits include weight reduction, improved bsls and in some cases reduction in medication required or reversal if T2D.
Some health profesionals will have read a BMJ article of 2018 which asserts that low carb diets increase the risk if heart problems. Zoe Harcombe in her articles totally debunks that assertion and the research and shows up the statistical flaws in the article.
What more do you really need to read in order to either follow say very low carb diet or acquiese back to Xpert?

What more do you really need to read in order to either follow say very low carb diet or acquiese back to Xpert?

Notes;

Just correct information. The Mayo clinic relates to north America where they play a different game, but I found your article an interesting read, thanks for finding and sharing. ATM XPERT leads in terms of factual, proof, published annual results. But I want to lose weight.
I do feel I should summarise and share this with my cardiologist, there may be special circumstances why I should or should not go LCHF. Q

 

[WuTwo]

You must do what you feel is right for you, but I do think that all the LCHF contributors on this thread have done their very best to help you, and spent a lot of time and effort trying to be as helpful as they possibly could be.

Kudos to them all.

 

[HSSS]

What more do you really need to read in order to either follow say very low carb diet or acquiese back to Xpert?

Notes;

Just correct information. The Mayo clinic relates to north America where they play a different game, but I found your article an interesting read, thanks for finding and sharing. ATM XPERT leads in terms of factual, proof, published annual results. But I want to lose weight.
I do feel I should summarise and share this with my cardiologist, there may be special circumstances why I should or should not go LCHF. Q

There is no definite answer. It’s all studies, flawed or not, biased or not, selective or not. A human body and science is the same across the globe. True, the end goals and methods may vary a bit though.

If you dig into the research behind Xpert I don’t think you’ll find its “proof “ is any more robust and possibly less so. Annual reports in and of themselves don’t mean much.

Your cardiologist will have his opinion as will the next cardiologist and they may not agree either.

Good luck making a decision but I doubt that anyone on here, or anywhere else, can give you the level of guarantee you want - about any choice - if they are honest.

 

[LooperCat]

I’ve been reading this thread for a while now, and totally understand @Q007 ‘s need for some solid science, as a former research scientist, current science teacher and soon to be medic myself. Most of it seems anecdotal, doesn’t it? All these n=1 stories...

I’d really recommend reading Dr Bernstein’s Diabetes Solution, Q - https://amzn.to/2HR4Yy5 Now while he is type one himself, he is a diabetes specialist doctor and treats all types of the condition. In his 80s now and still working with patients full time; his method has reversed most of the complications his 60-odd years of diabetes has caused. I’ve reversed all mine (there's that n=1 again!). His method involves eating low carb, high protein and moderate fat - 30g carbohydrates daily (split 6g breakfast, 12g each at lunch and dinner, mainly from green vegetables, which provide essential phytonutrients), plenty of protein and whatever fat naturally comes along with it - he’s not suggesting eating slabs of butter or blocks of cheese. I’ve improved my HbA1c from 89 to 40, and high glucose levels are thought to be much more dangerous to heart health than pretty much anything else.

Hope this helps.

 

[lucylocket61]

What more do you really need to read in order to either follow say very low carb diet or acquiese back to Xpert?

Notes;

Just correct information. The Mayo clinic relates to north America where they play a different game, but I found your article an interesting read, thanks for finding and sharing. ATM XPERT leads in terms of factual, proof, published annual results. But I want to lose weight.
I do feel I should summarise and share this with my cardiologist, there may be special circumstances why I should or should not go LCHF. Q

My apologies, I was under the impression that you had already decided to go on a low carb diet, and were trying to just clarify what fats were better than others.

As a point of info though, Dr Deakin, the author of the XPERT programme, is not a medical doctor. Her doctorate is in related studies:

"ABOUT THE AUTHOR: Trudi is Chief Executive of X-PERT Health and specialises in the research, development, implementation and audit of structured education for the public and healthcare professionals internationally. Trudi’s first degree in Nutrition and Dietetics was obtained in 1993, followed by a teaching qualification in 1998 and a doctorate in diabetes, behaviour change and self-management education in 2004. " copied and pasted from her website. None of her staff are medical professionals either. They rely on the same research as we are showing you on here.

 

[Tophat1900]

I’ve been reading this thread for a while now, and totally understand @Q007 ‘s need for some solid science, as a former research scientist, current science teacher and soon to be medic myself. Most of it seems anecdotal, doesn’t it? All these n=1 stories...

I’d really recommend reading Dr Bernstein’s Diabetes Solution, Q - https://amzn.to/2HR4Yy5 Now while he is type one himself, he is a diabetes specialist doctor and treats all types of the condition. In his 80s now and still working with patients full time; his method has reversed most of the complications his 60-odd years of diabetes has caused. I’ve reversed all mine (there's that n=1 again!). His method involves eating low carb, high protein and moderate fat - 30g carbohydrates daily (split 6g breakfast, 12g each at lunch and dinner, mainly from green vegetables, which provide essential phytonutrients), plenty of protein and whatever fat naturally comes along with it - he’s not suggesting eating slabs of butter or blocks of cheese. I’ve improved my HbA1c from 89 to 40, and high glucose levels are thought to be much more dangerous to heart health than pretty much anything else.

Hope this helps.

Yeah, I've got it. It's a great book and well worth getting.

 

[lucylocket61]

PS The jury is still out, even for the writer of the XPERT course, on the relationship between saturated fats and heart disease:

https://www.xperthealth.org.uk/Home...-saturated-fat-research-Plain-English-version

this is from their blog, citing the same studies we have been talking about on here.

 

[Bluetit1802]

@Q007

You keep mentioning the X-Pert course you attended. As mentioned above, the founder of X-Pert is Trudi Deakin. She is a member of this forum although she hasn't posted in a while. She built up the X-Pert programmes from nothing and set about getting the NHS to licence X-Pert to run courses for diabetics in some areas of the country. Initially she was obliged to follow much of the then current dietary advice in order to get her licence. When she arrived on this forum she was interested in how we all mange our diabetes and asked some of us to complete a proforma about our results - including all our cholesterol data. I was one of those that sent her my details. She then wrote a book called Eat Fat. As it happens, my diabetes nurse is one of their trainers. She went on an early training course, and shortly before one of my appointments with her she had been on another. On her desk was Trudi's book.

I have no idea how long ago it was when you went on this course, but I think you will find it has grown and changed as new evidence is published. From what I gather, the course now covers several dietary choices from moderate carb reduction to very low carb. They still have to be careful when teaching about fats because the NHS is not fully behind eating fats and Trudi needs to retain her licence.

 

[Deleted member 308541]

A) is 100 carbs a day OK as a down to point for a 6' male with my conditions

I use about + / - 100 grams of carbs daily, am 194 cm with both a heart and copd problem.

B) why are trans fats bad for us diabetics and who claimed medical proof that switching to LCHF is OK to eat saturated fats.

Dunno about trans fats, but a low carb diet works for me, as for who claimed it was the go plenty of evidence on this forum that it works for those who stick to it and do not backslide.

C) Is there equivalent advice for
Introducing fats like there is for
The annual 'actual' XPERT published results. A paper published by someone like the bmj would be a start, just something to cling to.

I am seeking advice here. Wishes, Q

I have never done any courses that have been offered to me here in Australia, and certainly they would not have helped me cling to the lchf way of eating.

Edit: Typo.

 

[Q007]

@Q007

You keep mentioning the X-Pert course you attended. As mentioned above, the founder of X-Pert is Trudi Deakin. She is a member of this forum although she hasn't posted in a while. She built up the X-Pert programmes from nothing and set about getting the NHS to licence X-Pert to run courses for diabetics in some areas of the country. Initially she was obliged to follow much of the then current dietary advice in order to get her licence. When she arrived on this forum she was interested in how we all mange our diabetes and asked some of us to complete a proforma about our results - including all our cholesterol data. I was one of those that sent her my details. She then wrote a book called Eat Fat. As it happens, my diabetes nurse is one of their trainers. She went on an early training course, and shortly before one of my appointments with her she had been on another. On her desk was Trudi's book.

I have no idea how long ago it was when you went on this course, but I think you will find it has grown and changed as new evidence is published. From what I gather, the course now covers several dietary choices from moderate carb reduction to very low carb. They still have to be careful when teaching about fats because the NHS is not fully behind eating fats and Trudi needs to retain her licence.

This is the best reply I've had, I wish I knew your name to thank you correctly.

You say I keep mentioning XPERT, well you keep forgetting the other things I mention; heart failure, sudden drops in blood pressure - my renal function is failing - all the stages they said I'd go through when HF started moving through the gears please, step into my shoes. It's right that I perform due diligence on something new, I have a duty to my small family to keep going.

You also drop out that I'm trying hard on low carb, I'm losing weight too and have bought several kitchen appliances to help me and the person who was helping me understand what portions by weight look like, so I could keep in line.

I had to say these things because they're true and, as you tire of me it seems I'm tired with not trying gain acceptance because I dont take everything at opinion level.


I have to say big thank you for that massive boost in mentioning the eat fat book by the author of XPERT. I give you my word I've just bought this book off Amazon it'll be here Wednesday. When I mentioned to my DN that the author of XPERT had changed the curriculum of the course to lower carbs she openly admitted she didn't know who the author was, I was stunned. Its the same response when I mention the supplements I take such as D3. The GP said we should do a test before you start vitamin supplements. When I told her D3 was actually classed as a hormone - Chlorocalciferol she went quiet and the consultation didn't last long. They call these things supplements because they dont know what to do with them. So I fully understand how difficult the NHS is, my brother was an orthopaedic surgeon. We used debate how the NHS is so slow to spool up on friendly banter. Friendly banter is all I mean, no harm just questioning.

Thanks for the CV of Trudi Deakin, I'd forgotten about her background and the book could be the jewel in the crown.

As I said, I have everyone here; carer, DN GP telling me you're wrong and I've been posting on here so often when it gets to me, looking for evidence to prove you right, that's all. Q.

Hoping your weekend was good.

 

[Q007]

Yeah, I've got it. It's a great book and well worth getting.

Yes it does help, it helps to hear a friendly voice, my GP, DN slay these theories and the heated debate with my carer caused her to quit, but through it all I am low carbing weighing portion control, all the foods I used to love have gone, boy this is a tough ride.

Thank you again for the link, be sure I always open them but I do look for credibility and stop if I can't find it.

Truly grateful, Q.

Hoping you're very well, well done on Hba1c 40, I've been there, nice place isn't it, I plan to get back there someday.
Q.

 

[Q007]

PS The jury is still out, even for the writer of the XPERT course, on the relationship between saturated fats and heart disease:

https://www.xperthealth.org.uk/Home...-saturated-fat-research-Plain-English-version

this is from their blog, citing the same studies we have been talking about on here.

Thank you for your reply and the link, good bedtime reading.

It's like I have a train to catch with fats.

As I stated previously, when the surgeon was performing the PCI procedure on my heart I was awake and the 1hr 20mins or so I was in theatre in between telling me how lucky I was to get away with 3 infractions in one event he was explaining how I got to being laid out in his theatre was atherosclerosis caused by eating fat. That kind of got hard wired into my mind like a childhood memory you will always remember. I just wish people with heart failure and a high Hba1c would step forward to talk about their journey, I think comparing would help, I feel very stressed ATM. Best wishes Q

 

[lucylocket61]

Thank you for your reply and the link, good bedtime reading.

It's like I have a train to catch with fats.

As I stated previously, when the surgeon was performing the PCI procedure on my heart I was awake and the 1hr 20mins or so I was in theatre in between telling me how lucky I was to get away with 3 infractions in one event he was explaining how I got to being laid out in his theatre was atherosclerosis caused by eating fat. That kind of got hard wired into my mind like a childhood memory you will always remember. I just wish people with heart failure and a high Hba1c would step forward to talk about their journey, I think comparing would help, I feel very stressed ATM. Best wishes Q

I could tell you about my 59 year old older brother, and my 86 year old father. Both type 2, both with heart disease, stents, bypasses, etc etc. But we are all different.

I will say to you what I said to them - forget about changing your fats for now, change your carbs, both the type and amount, and see how that affects your cholesterol and general heart conditions. If they improve, you know its the carbs. If they stay the same, you know its not the carbs.

My elderly father tried just focussing on the carbs for 6 months, his cholesterol and heart health improved. That was 5 years ago. He is now 86 years old, still ok, his heart is still ok, he has made it through cancer, he has switched to what he calls clean fats, those naturally found and not messed about with. His heart and cholesterol levels have not got worse. His cholesterol and blood pressure has improved. He is still gardening and pottering around and driving me up the wall. He has been a type 2 since he was 48 years old.

Just an anecdote.

 

[Q007]

I could tell you about my 59 year old older brother, and my 86 year old father. Both type 2, both with heart disease, stents, bypasses, etc etc. But we are all different.

I will say to you what I said to them - forget about changing your fats for now, change your carbs, both the type and amount, and see how that affects your cholesterol and general heart conditions. If they improve, you know its the carbs. If they stay the same, you know its not the carbs.

My elderly father tried just focussing on the carbs for 6 months, his cholesterol and heart health improved. That was 5 years ago. He is now 86 years old, still ok, his heart is still ok, he has made it through cancer, he has switched to what he calls clean fats, those naturally found and not messed about with. His heart and cholesterol levels have not got worse. His cholesterol and blood pressure has improved. He is still gardening and pottering around and driving me up the wall. He has been a type 2 since he was 48 years old.

Just an anecdote.

What kind of heart disease?
My cholesterol on XPERT was 3.8 with lots and lots of carbs, triglycerides under 2 on lots of carbs.

Here's what google says,

How long can you live with congestive heart failure and kidney failure?

Although there have been recent improvements in congestive heart failure treatment, researchers say the prognosis for people with the disease is still bleak, with about 50% having an average life expectancy of less than five years. For those with advanced forms of heart failure, nearly 90% die withinone year.2

Edited by moderator to remove personal attack.

 

[Guzzler]

What kind of heart disease?
My cholesterol on XPERT was 3.8 with lots and lots of carbs, triglycerides under 2 on lots of carbs.

Here's what google says,

How long can you live with congestive heart failure and kidney failure?

Although there have been recent improvements in congestive heart failure treatment, researchers say the prognosis for people with the disease is still bleak, with about 50% having an average life expectancy of less than five years. For those with advanced forms of heart failure, nearly 90% die withinone year.2

How rude! People have bent over backwards to offer advice and examples of personal experiences. I, for one, shall not bother again.

Edited by mod to remove reference to a previously edited post.

 

[Q007]

How rude! People have bent over backwards to offer advice and examples of personal experiences. I, for one, shall not bother again.

Thank you, that'll be good I thought you were rude too otherwise I wouldn't have responded. The one thing you didn't do is offer knowledge or help.

I asked you a question you didn't have the courtesy to answer it. Lack of courtesy I try and avoid.

 

[Q007]

Thank you, that'll be good I thought you were rude too otherwise I wouldn't have responded. The one thing you didn't do is offer knowledge or help.

I asked you a question you didn't have the courtesy to answer it. Lack of courtesy I try and avoid.

By the way "many people have bent over to help you" .. They have.

 

[Guzzler]

Now on *Ignore*.