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Is a vegan diet effective for a T2D on orals?

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JohnEGreen said:
Vitimin K2 fat soluble.
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Not sure which post you are replying to here, Is it #80? Or is this to open a K2 specific discussion in relation ti the OP? Please elucidate for us.

Here is an article of unknown provenance that can feed into this
https://kresserinstitute.com/vitamin-k2-consuming-enough/

Certainly K2 is required for unlocking vitamin D synthesis in the body. It is not an essential vitamin as far as I can tell. It is not commonly available from plant sources apart from soya and some algae. If using a Vit D supplement, then it should contain k2 otherwise it could be an expensive waste of time.
 
I believe the OP was about the effectiveness of vegan diets so I think my post was fairly succinct and to the point it is an essential vitamin that being fat soluble is not readily available in plant based food K2 can be synthesized by the body from K1 but only in very small amounts.

I didn't find it necessary to add tons of blurb.
 
JohnEGreen said:
I believe the OP was about the effectiveness of vegan diets so I think my post was fairly succinct and to the point it is an essential vitamin that being fat soluble is not readily available in plant based food K2 can be synthesized by the body from K1 but only in very small amounts.

I didn't find it necessary to add tons of blurb.
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I agree it was on topic and relevant. You know what you were saying, but it was too succint for me to understand. Your follow on explantion clarifies your inttention for others who might also have been confused as to what the context was.. I apologise if I offended you by my query.

K2 is important to us for calcium conversion but it is not one of the Essential vitamins since, as you point out, it is synthesised in the body from other nutrients. We can survive without it but with reduced health and wellbeing prognosis. It is yet another nutrient that we need to consider adding to our supplement list when taking up a vegan diet way of life.
 
"Your body can partly convert vitamin K1 to K2. This is useful, as the amount of vitamin K1 in a typical diet is ten times that of vitamin K2.
However, current evidence indicates that the conversion process is inefficient. As a result, you may benefit much more from eating vitamin K2 directly.
Vitamin K2 is also produced by gut bacteria in your large intestine. Some evidence suggests that broad-spectrum antibiotics contribute to K2 deficiency (28Trusted Source, 29Trusted Source).
Still, the average intake of this important nutrient is incredibly low in the modern diet.
Vitamin K2 is mainly found in certain animal and fermented foods, which most people don't eat much of.
Rich animal sources include high-fat dairy products from grass-fed cows, egg yolks, as well as liver and other organ meats "

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/vitamin-k2

No offence taken old mate btw non essential nutrients can become conditionally essential nutrients if the bodies requirement for them rises above what it is able to produce it's self.
 
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An old, and fairly odd thread revisited. First time I’ve read it. The professionals (Barnard being mentioned) recommend LOW FAT plant-based eating. (plant-based is a far more correct term, because vegan by its very definition encompasses ethical beliefs - exactly what the OP didn’t want mentioned). If you read the information presented - it’s the low fat aspect that is KEY. Animal foods just simply don’t fit into this plan, but the authors will also discuss other reasons not to eat animal products. regardless, the question that should be asked is does a very low-fat diet improve T2 - mostly IR. Discussing “vegan” is a straw man, thus there is no way to actually have a meaningful debate - not just apples and oranges, but apples and cars.

~ a pastie is not going to be low fat, would violate the eating guidelines of literally all the well- know plant-based proponents - so that “experiment”, while perhaps tasty, is utterly irrelevant.
 
Walking Girl said:
An old, and fairly odd thread revisited. First time I’ve read it. The professionals (Barnard being mentioned) recommend LOW FAT plant-based eating. (plant-based is a far more correct term, because vegan by its very definition encompasses ethical beliefs - exactly what the OP didn’t want mentioned). If you read the information presented - it’s the low fat aspect that is KEY. Animal foods just simply don’t fit into this plan, but the authors will also discuss other reasons not to eat animal products. regardless, the question that should be asked is does a very low-fat diet improve T2 - mostly IR. Discussing “vegan” is a straw man, thus there is no way to actually have a meaningful debate - not just apples and oranges, but apples and cars.

~ a pastie is not going to be low fat, would violate the eating guidelines of literally all the well- know plant-based proponents - so that “experiment”, while perhaps tasty, is utterly irrelevant.
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WFPB is another notation. But that we have discussed in detail elsewhere as a different issue.

You are in danger of derailing this thread. The title quite clearly states vegan diet. Your post is your interpretation of it, which I disagree with. Since I am the original OP of this thread,please respect my wishes to discuss the effects of the vegan WOE for a Type 2 diabetic on orals, such as myself/
 
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Oldvatr said:
WFPB is another notation. But that we have discussed in detail elsewhere as a different issue.

You are in danger of derailing this thread. The title quite clearly states vegan diet. Your post is your interpretation of it, which I disagree with. Since I am the original OP of this thread,please respect my wishes to discuss the effects of the vegan WOE for a Type 2 diabetic on orals, such as myself/
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I don’t think it’s possible to derail a thread that asks conflicting questions. You want to talk about a vegan diet (which is by its very definition ethics-based), but not ethics. You want to talk about Dr. Barnard (who is also not a vegan), but not about the actual diet he recommends.

Since I’m a T2 eating a plant-based diet, but am not a vegan, I guess I can’t add anything about the health effects of specifically a vegan diet.
 
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Walking Girl said:
I don’t think it’s possible to derail a thread that asks conflicting questions. You want to talk about a vegan diet (which is by its very definition ethics-based), but not ethics. You want to talk about Dr. Barnard (who is also not a vegan), but not about the actual diet he recommends.

Since I’m a T2 eating a plant-based diet, but am not a vegan, I guess I can’t add anything about the health effects of specifically a vegan diet.
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Yes, I believe that we can discuss the vegan diet without needing to include any ethic at all. There is a difference between the vegan way of eating as sold in the supermarkets, and the vegan way of existance as maintained by the vegan society. If I buy a vegan pastie in my local cake shop (as I have done recently) then I do it for my own reasons. This same choice is open to you. The pastie remains the same, and the company making and marketing it has their own ethics for doing so. The ethics ot all 3 partiess can be different, and not in conflict. You seem to be wanting to make it a contentious issue.
 
Oldvatr said:
Yes, I believe that we can discuss the vegan diet without needing to include any ethic at all. There is a difference between the vegan way of eating as sold in the supermarkets, and the vegan way of existance as maintained by the vegan society. If I buy a vegan pastie in my local cake shop (as I have done recently) then I do it for my own reasons. This same choice is open to you. The pastie remains the same, and the company making and marketing it has their own ethics for doing so. The ethics ot all 3 partiess can be different, and not in conflict. You seem to be wanting to make it a contentious issue.
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I never once said the discussion could not be had. What I said is there is conflicting/confusing information in your thread. I’m not being contentious, I’m being specific.

by the way, who said being a vegan would cure diabetes? I mean, actual experts?
 
bulkbiker said:
Vegan or Plant based (which I usually describe as Plant Only Diet)?

If the latter then Greger does here..
https://nutritionfacts.org/2018/09/20/how-to-reverse-type-2-diabetes/

Note the use of "reverse" not "remission" too
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I personally don’t consider reversing and curing to be the same thing, although I’m aware there are no agreed upon definitions. But reversing is going backwards - not a guarantee you will get back to where you started. Here’s how Dr. Barnard describes reversal:

“Most people with diabetes find themselves on a road leading toward gradually increasing weight, slowly rising blood sugar, higher doses of medications, and worsening complications. Reversing diabetes means reversing this trend.”

Excerpt From
Dr. Neal Barnard's Program for Reversing Diabetes
Neal Barnard

I agree with this, and don’t think he’s offering a cure, nor is Dr Greger.
 
Walking Girl said:
find themselves on a road leading toward gradually increasing weight, slowly rising blood sugar, higher doses of medications, and worsening complications.
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There are quite a few here who with a keto, carnivore or omnivorous diet have disproved that statement... many with sub 30 mmol/m HbA1c levels.

As I said Barnard himself "proved" he wasn't even able to reverse really, just delay temporarily as the graph from his study demonstrates quite neatly.
 
bulkbiker said:
There are quite a few here who with a keto, carnivore or omnivorous diet have disproved that statement... many with sub 30 mmol/m HbA1c levels.
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Um...yes, there are...

What is your point? How does that relate to Barnard’s definition? And how does it relate to the OPs question? Unless you are saying one can’t Eat only plant-based and do the same...is that what you are saying?
 
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Walking Girl said:
I never once said the discussion could not be had. What I said is there is conflicting/confusing information in your thread. I’m not being contentious, I’m being specific.

by the way, who said being a vegan would cure diabetes? I mean, actual experts?
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Michsel Greger who sells an expensive but secretive Cure Diabetes online scheme that cost my wife a significant portion of her DLA income when she bought it for my birthday present. Cost with postage from USA was over £100, and in the package was a copy of his cookbook, a glossy video, and an MLM scheme for us to promote the plan and make money from promoting it. No Thanks. His vegan stew pushed my bgl up to over 25 mmol/l and it stayed over 10 for most of the next day. My omnivore stew spikes me less than 1 mmol/l and lasts for less than 4 hours according to my meter. So who is curing my diabetes better?

A vegan compatible chickpea curry had very similar effect on my bgl, and the heartburn I got from it had me in the cardio resus room for two nights. My own experience with even the vegan pastie I mentioned was also adverse to my wellbeing. I have reasson to believe I am not the only one to suffer similar adverse reactions to this diet. The more I do research into this diet I come across instances where the diet seems to be deficient in several essential nutrients which will impinge on my health over the longer term.

So I return to your question you posed - who advocates this diet for Diabetics? I pat it gently back to you to say please supply referenced and independant study material that supports the claims made by followers of this diet. I have asked this many times in the Forum, and am deafened by the silence it generates. My own research has also not uncovered any scientific gems that support the low fat theory of WFPB apart from the discredited ADVENT 1 and ADVENT 2 studes that have been shown to have been very flawed. It is these two studies that form the backbone of Barnard's claims in his books.

Edit to add perhaps greger does claim a cure?

Also see what Forksoverknoves says about it on their website.
 
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Oldvatr said:
Michsel Greger who sells an expensive but secretive Cure Diabetes online scheme that cost my wife a significant portion of her DLA income when she bought it for my birthday present. Cost with postage from USA was over £100, and in the package was a copy of his cookbook, a glossy video, and an MLM scheme for us to promote the plan and make money from promoting it. No Thanks. His vegan stew pushed my bgl up to over 25 mmol/l and it stayed over 10 for most of the next day. My omnivore stew spikes me less than 1 mmol/l and lasts for less than 4 hours according to my meter. So who is curing my diabetes better?

A vegan compatible chickpea curry had very similar effect on my bgl, and the heartburn I got from it had me in the cardio resus room for two nights. My own experience with even the vegan pastie I mentioned was also adverse to my wellbeing. I have reasson to believe I am not the only one to suffer similar adverse reactions to this diet. The more I do research into this diet I come across instances where the diet seems to be deficient in several essential nutrients which will impinge on my health over the longer term.

So I return to your question you posed - who advocates this diet for Diabetics? I pat it gently back to you to say please supply referenced and independant study material that supports the claims made by followers of this diet. I have asked this many times in the Forum, and am deafened by the silence it generates. My own research has also not uncovered any scientific gems that support the low fat theory of WFPB apart from the discredited ADVENT 1 and ADVENT 2 studes that have been shown to have been very flawed. It is these two studies that form the backbone of Barnard's claims in his books.
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What I asked you who said being a vegan would *cure* diabetes, not who advocates it as a treatment.

Again, I’m not a vegan, so I can’t address how healthy it is. I eat WFPB, which you’ve said is off-topic.
 
Walking Girl said:
No he does not, certainly not in what you posted anyway. That would be disappointing if he did.
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What?????????????????????????????
The title of the video makes that claim in pure daylight/ This conversation is going nowhere. You are assigning statements to my OP that are not there. Nowhere in the OP does it mention cure.

The vegan society is also claiming reversal for the diet in their website but their official science expert turns out to be Michael Greger. I must point out that although technically he can call hiself a doctor, it is an academic title that is not associated with a medical degree *[see correction below]. My son is now a Doctor by the same token, but he is a physisist not physician.

I asked if the diet was effective, and this can mean many things like reversal, remission, or just controlled bgl with subsequent reductions in medication. I expected posters to post their results and success testimonials in support of the diet. [or not]. So far we have had zero responses from proponents. My trawl through the subthread of testamonials on this site has also drawn a blank. But conversly there are multiple responses supporting Low Carb and Very Low Calorie diets, complete with associated scientific studies in support where reversal has been recorded under both anecdotal personal experiences (as I have done) but also by NHS accepted trials in GP practices.

Edit to add correction. Micharl Greger dropped out of the MD course at Tufts University, but nonetheless has graduated and is now licenced as a physician in clinical nutrition.
 
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