Can You Ignore This...I Couldn't

[Mbaker]

During my diabetes journey I always have to square off controversial matters to my own satisfaction. I have a mantra to not ever again outsource my health to someone elses belief system without checking for myself, especially as I have influenced my family and friends choices . I am happy with LDL, animal based diets and carbohydrate restriction. I understand the Randle Cycle as to why a clean high carbohydrate diet with minimal fat can "work" to a definition (although I am skeptical about the bio markers and 5 to 10 year health outcomes for a recovering diabetic).

For a long time I believed carbohydrates and sugar were the root cause of what I would term the majority case of Type 2 diabetes diagnoses, but could not square societies that when they ate clean high carb diets were in apparent health....then all of a sudden they have a diabesity epidermic. I have been watching Dr Chris Knobbe for a few years now, and can no longer put to one side what he is saying. For me his presentations are as compelling as the late (and great) Dr Sarah Halberg's do the opposite of what main stream says to reverse Type 2 YouTube.

I now believe that vegetable oils are the root cause of the majority of Type 2 and Obesity cases (and the majority of other non communicable diseases). I feel the sugar and grains that usually accompany the seed oils accelerate the disease process, as they help the ingestion of more of the oils in the hyper-paletable foods available. I think the oils engineer the damaging of the cells which leads to sugar / carbohydrate intolerance. My rationale is that if some societies can survive with good health on a higher carb diets (mostly in the past using clean carbs such as potatoes, bread, other vegetables with meats / fish / coconuts etc) something in the environment must have changed to get the results we see across the globe in a short period of time (relative to human existence). I will not be persuaded that the human genome could get anywhere changing across the globe in circa 130 years.

Chris, I believe has outlined correlative and other evidence in what I can only say cannot be coincidental, however this looks to me, better than the evidence that smoking can cause lung cancer. If you review the video below look at how many countries Chris references and then ask yourself were they healthier before the seed oils. So for me the 60 - 70% of the food like substances that contain seed oils break our bodily health, and for many destroy our ability to handle carbs / sugar. What do you think.

 

[bulkbiker]

I wonder if the toxic seed oils simply add another layer of foods trying to kill us into the mix?

I've never been a huge consumer of oils (preferring butter to cook with) yet still developed obesity and T2.

Mine came on when in living in France consuming vast quantities of freshly baked baguettes and croissants.
I gained an extra 3 stone in weight (on top of the obesity I had before) and returned to the UK in 2015 for a T2 diagnosis.

Maybe for some people seed oils and carbs produce the tipping point and for others just carbs and others the oils?

Just a thought.

At the end of the day I now believe that all are toxic to some extent for humans and avoid them at all costs.

 

[Goonergal]

I don’t think it’s as simple as that. I totally agree about the toxicity of seed oils but also have never been a big consumer of those.

Aside from the development of seed oils the wider availability of food and of processed and ultra-processed foods has also risen exponentially in recent years. Including in some so-called keto ‘foods’.

For me it’s a heady mix of both of these combined with excessive carbs that have led to the diabesity epidemic.

 

[zand]

I believe seed and veg oils were the tipping point for me. I was about a stone overweight when I switched to using oils believing them to be healthier. They weren't and I gained weight faster than before, until I had put on a further 7 stones.

 

[AndBreathe]

I don't think T2is a simple condition - mainly because it seems to be a bucket for those with metabolic dysregulation involving raised blood sugars.

Until there is a more interested view into the precursors to diagnosis across large numbers, we will never truly get to the bottom of it.

For some, over the very much longer term, raised blood sugars are the least of their worries, it is the complications and other creeping conditions that meander, unnoticed into the background that seriously impact quality of life.

Of course we have a massive, and almost always circular chicken and egg argument around that, but that's all part of the problem.

As part of this cardiac research piece I have been involved with, I understand they are beginning to see some "encouraging" findings in certain groups. Hopefullly, it won't be too long before those findings (and others hopefully) can be published.

I think what is going on in Leicester is very important work.

 

[onnecar]

During my diabetes journey I always have to square off controversial matters to my own satisfaction. I have a mantra to not ever again outsource my health to someone elses belief system without checking for myself, especially as I have influenced my family and friends choices . I am happy with LDL, animal based diets and carbohydrate restriction. I understand the Randle Cycle as to why a clean high carbohydrate diet with minimal fat can "work" to a definition (although I am skeptical about the bio markers and 5 to 10 year health outcomes for a recovering diabetic).

For a long time I believed carbohydrates and sugar were the root cause of what I would term the majority case of Type 2 diabetes diagnoses, but could not square societies that when they ate clean high carb diets were in apparent health....then all of a sudden they have a diabesity epidermic. I have been watching Dr Chris Knobbe for a few years now, and can no longer put to one side what he is saying. For me his presentations are as compelling as the late (and great) Dr Sarah Halberg's do the opposite of what main stream says to reverse Type 2 YouTube.

I now believe that vegetable oils are the root cause of the majority of Type 2 and Obesity cases (and the majority of other non communicable diseases). I feel the sugar and grains that usually accompany the seed oils accelerate the disease process, as they help the ingestion of more of the oils in the hyper-paletable foods available. I think the oils engineer the damaging of the cells which leads to sugar / carbohydrate intolerance. My rationale is that if some societies can survive with good health on a higher carb diets (mostly in the past using clean carbs such as potatoes, bread, other vegetables with meats / fish / coconuts etc) something in the environment must have changed to get the results we see across the globe in a short period of time (relative to human existence). I will not be persuaded that the human genome could get anywhere changing across the globe in circa 130 years.

Chris, I believe has outlined correlative and other evidence in what I can only say cannot be coincidental, however this looks to me, better than the evidence that smoking can cause lung cancer. If you review the video below look at how many countries Chris references and then ask yourself were they healthier before the seed oils. So for me the 60 - 70% of the food like substances that contain seed oils break our bodily health, and for many destroy our ability to handle carbs / sugar. What do you think.

There are quite a few alternative theories for diabetes and a host of other diseases on youtube. Some may have some truth in them. I'm a huge believer of a heavy genetic factor, particularly for thin type 2s. If you have a sluggish pancreas amongst other organs I think it's going to show up stuff sooner or later. I can still remember the theory of the metabolic x factor which was hugely popular at one time, but now no one ever refers too. I'm still keen on that theory.

 

[JohnEGreen]

When the native Americans were forced onto reservations they no longer had access to their traditional foods so the American government agencies supplied them with food but it was manly flour fat and such and some meats one of the main foods they made out of what they had been given was Fry Bread the main ingredients of which are flour, Shortening (solid Fats), baking soda ( thery used soda ash) ,salt and either milk or water.

It was after the change in diet forced on them that they began to develop obesity and diabetes in any great numbers I believe it was the change to a high carbohydrate diet that made the difference but I must admit I always use butter or lard or olive oil for cooking now my mother always used beef dripping or lard as did my nan so it's what I prefer anyway.

 

[barrym]

I believe we have a human condition that demands a 'line' of which one side is OK, and the other is not.

This assumption I reckon applies to many conditions. T2 is one. I reckon the individual's threshold at which it become recognisable varies on a number of factors: weight, exercise, diet etc. A sliding threshold to each or all of these can tip you. As an example a good friend of mine was diagnosed pre-diabetic some years ago. He wasn't obese, a little heavy maybe. His diet was OK. He was distraught at the diagnosis. I suggested that he cut carbs (maybe a mistake in light of this video), lose a little weight and exercise more. He did and was able to come back to the right side of his threshold. Been in remission (cured?) for years now.

So I can see a lot of value in this video, but also in many of the other theories too. Nature doesn't provide food in cellophane or foil. The ideal is to eat stuff that doesn't require a list of ingredients.

Just my 2p worth!

 

[Mbaker]

I wonder if the toxic seed oils simply add another layer of foods trying to kill us into the mix?

I've never been a huge consumer of oils (preferring butter to cook with) yet still developed obesity and T2.

Mine came on when in living in France consuming vast quantities of freshly baked baguettes and croissants.
I gained an extra 3 stone in weight (on top of the obesity I had before) and returned to the UK in 2015 for a T2 diagnosis.

Maybe for some people seed oils and carbs produce the tipping point and for others just carbs and others the oils?

Just a thought.

At the end of the day I now believe that all are toxic to some extent for humans and avoid them at all costs.

Like you I know what I was doing in the 6 weeks I induced feeling fine to rampant diabetes. I was eating copious amounts of fruit, fruit juices, increased oats, home made soda bread and banana cake, alongside mixed home made meals and treats.

On Chris's evidence it appears that cleaner carb meals such as meat and potatoes was not a tipping point. I have always felt that if I had from birth onwards been on a Paleo with some fruit diet, diabetes would not be known to me. You could be right it, may be the combination is a perfect storm.

 

[Mbaker]

I don’t think it’s as simple as that. I totally agree about the toxicity of seed oils but also have never been a big consumer of those.

Aside from the development of seed oils the wider availability of food and of processed and ultra-processed foods has also risen exponentially in recent years. Including in some so-called keto ‘foods’.

For me it’s a heady mix of both of these combined with excessive carbs that have led to the diabesity epidemic.

I can see why some ideologies take "evidence", even with small hazard ratio's and run with it. The issue I have with the oils is the amount of quiet change over the years to fix the found issues with them. Your point about the food changes / availability I think has weight. I recall a documentary which detailed a part of Brazil that up to 2000 had no chronic disease burden, one of the big producers literally brought in via a boat processed foods .... everyone can guess what happened to health after that.

 

[Mbaker]

I believe seed and veg oils were the tipping point for me. I was about a stone overweight when I switched to using oils believing them to be healthier. They weren't and I gained weight faster than before, until I had put on a further 7 stones.

I don't like referring to mice / rat studies, but a recall one that compared fats and the veg oils resulted in the most fatness.

 

[onnecar]

Like you I know what I was doing in the 6 weeks I induced feeling fine to rampant diabetes. I was eating copious amounts of fruit, fruit juices, increased oats, home made soda bread and banana cake, alongside mixed home made meals and treats.

On Chris's evidence it appears that cleaner carb meals such as meat and potatoes was not a tipping point. I have always felt that if I had from birth onwards been on a Paleo with some fruit diet, diabetes would not be known to me. You could be right it, may be the combination is a perfect storm.

I know people that have reversed their diabetes with the paleo diet. I reversed my diabetes years ago on a very low carbohydrate diet, but had a problem with anaemia so had to give it up. I also looked mal-nourished as I became so thin. The diet wasn't the cause of my anaemia which I still have and the cause is still unknown. I did not like looking ill and so thin. At the end of the day we have a life to live. It depends on quality as much as longevity. Not everyone's body operates the same we are all unique in that sense. What works for one, might not necessarily work for someone else. Ideally I believe we should stick to wholefoods and less manufactured products.

 

[Mbaker]

I believe we have a human condition that demands a 'line' of which one side is OK, and the other is not.

This assumption I reckon applies to many conditions. T2 is one. I reckon the individual's threshold at which it become recognisable varies on a number of factors: weight, exercise, diet etc. A sliding threshold to each or all of these can tip you. As an example a good friend of mine was diagnosed pre-diabetic some years ago. He wasn't obese, a little heavy maybe. His diet was OK. He was distraught at the diagnosis. I suggested that he cut carbs (maybe a mistake in light of this video), lose a little weight and exercise more. He did and was able to come back to the right side of his threshold. Been in remission (cured?) for years now.

So I can see a lot of value in this video, but also in many of the other theories too. Nature doesn't provide food in cellophane or foil. The ideal is to eat stuff that doesn't require a list of ingredients.

Just my 2p worth!

I think your suggestion to your friend was relevant as many carbs come with veg oils into the bargain.

 

[dosh]

Very interesting video.
Here is a slightly different view of a very complex subject.
Steve Gibson is an American Software Engineer who has very strong views on Health in general and Very Low Carbohydrate Diets in particular.
(Also quite a useful site if you want to check if your Firewall is working ok)

GRC | The Low Carb Choice

Research into the nature and dangers of chronic dietary carbohydrate consumption

www.grc.com

 

[onnecar]

I know people that have reversed their diabetes with the paleo diet. I reversed my diabetes years ago on a very low carbohydrate diet, but had a problem with anaemia so had to give it up. I also looked mal-nourished as I became so thin. The diet wasn't the cause of my anaemia which I still have and the cause is still unknown. I did not like looking ill and so thin. At the end of the day we have a life to live. It depends on quality as much as longevity. Not everyone's body operates the same we are all unique in that sense. What works for one, might not necessarily work for someone else. Ideally I believe we should stick to wholefoods and less manufactured products.

Incidentally I did not mean to give the impression that just because I stopped this extreme diet that I now eat anything. I'm quite sensible and eat low carbs, hardly any sugar, not too much meat and plenty of veg, some fish, pulses etc. If I can manage to stabilise my glucose levels, my next thing is to look even more closely at diet. ie what might be best for me. I do still want to enjoy my food too.

 

[AndBreathe]

I believe we have a human condition that demands a 'line' of which one side is OK, and the other is not.

This assumption I reckon applies to many conditions. T2 is one. I reckon the individual's threshold at which it become recognisable varies on a number of factors: weight, exercise, diet etc. A sliding threshold to each or all of these can tip you. As an example a good friend of mine was diagnosed pre-diabetic some years ago. He wasn't obese, a little heavy maybe. His diet was OK. He was distraught at the diagnosis. I suggested that he cut carbs (maybe a mistake in light of this video), lose a little weight and exercise more. He did and was able to come back to the right side of his threshold. Been in remission (cured?) for years now.

So I can see a lot of value in this video, but also in many of the other theories too. Nature doesn't provide food in cellophane or foil. The ideal is to eat stuff that doesn't require a list of ingredients.

Just my 2p worth!

There are already variations in both diagnostic and assessment metrics in other parts of the world - for example, lower BMIs in Asian societies and lower HbA1cs in some countries.

I guess there has to be a line in the sand, else the diagnostic chaos would be incredible, but (in UK) the 47-50 bracket being "just over" perhaps trivialises things on occasions.

 

[AndBreathe]

Incidentally I did not mean to give the impression that just because I stopped this extreme diet that I now eat anything. I'm quite sensible and eat low carbs, hardly any sugar, not too much meat and plenty of veg, some fish, pulses etc. If I can manage to stabilise my glucose levels, my next thing is to look even more closely at diet. ie what might be best for me. I do still want to enjoy my food too.

Onnecar, we all have to decide where "acceptable" lies in the mix we call life - especially when we make changes, but just one comment (and it is merely a comment), when we lose weight, it tends to come from the places we don't want to lose it - face, chest are and so on, and much more slowly from the central region where our visceral fat hides out.

When I lost weight I too had folks saying I looked thin, that my face had changed and some asked it I had been unwell. It took me about a year (I think) for my weightloss to sort itself out and my body composition to settle into more acceptable areas (although my bosom will never be truly pneumatic again, I fear ).

For the last 8 years I have consistently stayed in the 48-50kg range, just plodding along.

I do hope your blood sugar stabilises in line with your hopes and that you can get to the bottom of your anaemia.

 

[Oldvatr]

I can see why some ideologies take "evidence", even with small hazard ratio's and run with it. The issue I have with the oils is the amount of quiet change over the years to fix the found issues with them. Your point about the food changes / availability I think has weight. I recall a documentary which detailed a part of Brazil that up to 2000 had no chronic disease burden, one of the big producers literally brought in via a boat processed foods .... everyone can guess what happened to health after that.

This is a story we see in other groupings around the world. where they started with a traditional diet and moved onto the western civilised diet based on processed foods. The Chinese, the Japanese, The polynesians, the ekimos, the inhabitants of the Yukon, and even in places like Mexico and Peru, Wherever theres a Macdonalds, and a Walmart we see a sudden rise in obesity and diabetes.

Although I agree that seed oils are not as healthy as they were marketed, I firmly believe that T2D is triggered by a high calorie diet with high fructose content on top. HFCS was inspired by the Devil. Maltose is an alcohol wrongly used IMO. Table sugar contains fructose which plays its part too. Seed oils may induce inflammation which isnot wanted, but fructose gums up the works well and truly with ectopic fat blocking the pancreas and liver and adding to the waistline too.

 

[Outlier]

Baby weaning food needs looking at, too. Stuffed with dodgy ingredients.

Way back in the day, GPs told mothers with new babies that human breast milk wasn't good enough for babies (!!!!!) and to use a certain brand of milk powder specially designed for them instead. This brand was full of powdered wheat. I do wonder if so many wheat allergies stem from those days, and also if a tendency to gain too much weight in adults could sometimes be traced to that. I have no idea if this is still the case with powdered milk.

Unsurprisingly, there was a financial incentive in those times for GPs to persuade mothers to change from breastfeeding to powdered milk formula. Nothing new under the sun.

 

[Oldvatr]

Baby weaning food needs looking at, too. Stuffed with dodgy ingredients.

Way back in the day, GPs told mothers with new babies that human breast milk wasn't good enough for babies (!!!!!) and to use a certain brand of milk powder specially designed for them instead. This brand was full of powdered wheat. I do wonder if so many wheat allergies stem from those days, and also if a tendency to gain too much weight in adults could sometimes be traced to that. I have no idea if this is still the case with powdered milk.

Unsurprisingly, there was a financial incentive in those times for GPs to persuade mothers to change from breastfeeding to powdered milk formula. Nothing new under the sun.

One of the added ingredients apparently was Melamine (a component of Formica) which is a plastic. This was authorised as a bulking agent unril babies started dying suddenly. I think it is is no longer allowed in the UK, but it is possibly still used in China.

2008 Chinese milk scandal - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org