Alcohol as a BG lowering agent

[KennyA]

Hi there. I vary between 7.9 & 10.9 post meal. I have two dogs which keep me active with plenty of good walks! Where I do have to be careful is when I am unwell: my blood glucose fluctuates considerably during these periods which normally runs between 11mml & 12mml.
My Doctor allows me to be 10.9 post meal.
Currently, my HBA1C is: 48. My Dr has told me if I reach 42 she will no longer consider me Diabetic: this, however, is proving to be a very difficult goal to achieve indeed!
I have suffered with Hypos since the age of 13: first ever Hypo happened while skiing the Cairngorms. I have feared & dreaded them ever since; I do my best to always avoid them at all costs: I always carry either a piece of flapjack or chocolate.
I only introduced alcohol (red wine, cider & beer) 1 year ago into my Diabetic Regime after noticing the benefit from having red wine a meal at a restaurant on checking my blood glucose post meal & then the morning fast test. As I had been carrying out various trial testing regarding various foods, I was able to identify which foods worked for me & which ones did not.
Including alcohol has worked for me as I use it very sparingly: however, not everyone’s physiology will tolerate alcohol in their diet.

I'm curious that your doctor is accepting readings of over 10 post meal and still expecting you to get to normal BG levels. Those seem mutually exclusive conditions, unless I'm missing something.

Have you had any explanation for the hypos, given that you're running at relatively high glucose levels?

 

[David Paul]

I'm curious that your doctor is accepting readings of over 10 post meal and still expecting you to get to normal BG levels. Those seem mutually exclusive conditions, unless I'm missing something.

Have you had any explanation for the hypos, given that you're running at relatively high glucose levels?

No: I have never been given any explanation for the hypos. The hypos that I have been able to capture with my Accu-Chek device range between 3.5 & 3.9. It takes me between 5 & 6 hours to recover from a hypo episode.
I was diagnosed in November, 2014 with T-2 Diabetes. From October, 2009 until November, 2014 I was on Prednisolone 10mg daily. In August, 2014 I was prescribed Humira Adalimumab 40mg every 2 weeks. I then had an exit strategy from the steroid over a 3 month period with a week by week reduction of the steroid culminating on a final daily dose of 0.5mg during the final week of use: it was at this point the diabetes complications began.
My initial reaction was shock & denial.
During the five years of steroid use, my blood glucose was constantly monitored; they always came back normal: only when the steroid was withdrawn did I begin my journey with hyperglycaemia.
Previous to all this my battle was with hypoglycaemia. It was only by chance of a conversation with a former work colleague, who was T-1 Diabetic since age 12, on mentioning that I would suffer shaking & extreme weakness, normally mid-mornings, that he offered to check my blood glucose the next time this happened. That next took 2 days later in 1999; my reading was: 2.7 mml. He advised I consult a Doctor which I did not do. It was only later when I began to research Diabetes that I discovered that hypoglycaemia can be just as dangerous as hyperglycaemia! From age 13 I just corrected it with Cadbury’s Dairy Milk Chocolate!!!
Since November,2014 my own personal war has been two fronts: hypoglycaemia & hyperglycaemia. The side effects of the hypos I find to be the worst to contend with.

 

[Antje77]

When I am on my Diabetic Eating Regime, following to the letter, I have normal range numbers of 4-7mml: however, I invariably end up with daily hypos which, if you have ever experienced, you will know just how horrible they are!

Are those hypos confirmed with a fingerprick?
Numbers in the lower normal range can feel exactly like a hypo if your body is used to higher numbers.

 

[Antje77]

The hypos that I have been able to capture with my Accu-Chek device range between 3.5 & 3.9. It takes me between 5 & 6 hours to recover from a hypo episode.

For non diabetics it's not unusual to see numbers in the higher 3's.
What is unusual is that it takes you so long to recover from a hypo. As a T1 on insulin, hypos are simply part of the deal, and usually I just treat and get on with whatever I was doing.

It was only later when I began to research Diabetes that I discovered that hypoglycaemia can be just as dangerous as hyperglycaemia!

Hypos being dangerous is usually reserved for diabetics on glucose lowering medication like gliclazide or insulin, and even then they are only really dangerous if you are hypo-unaware so you don't treat.
In diabetics who are treated with diet, or metformin, hypos aren't dangerous as a rule.

 

[Oldvatr]

For non diabetics it's not unusual to see numbers in the higher 3's.
What is unusual is that it takes you so long to recover from a hypo. As a T1 on insulin, hypos are simply part of the deal, and usually I just treat and get on with whatever I was doing.

Hypos being dangerous is usually reserved for diabetics on glucose lowering medication like gliclazide or insulin, and even then they are only really dangerous if you are hypo-unaware so you don't treat.
In diabetics who are treated with diet, or metformin, hypos aren't dangerous as a rule.

Hypo's for T2D can be dangerous for many because T2d are not supposed to test their blood sugars, so are totally reliant on being hypo aware. also many T2D have progressed to insulin therapy so again are at risk. We do not get access to CGM unless funding privately.

 

[In Response]

Act in the same way as Insulin does by causing them to be stored in Fat cells.

If insulin caused all carbs to be stored as fat then everyone without diabetes (who has a healthy insulin producing pancreas) and everyone with Type 1 diabetes (who have no choice but to inject insulin to survive) would be overweight.

 

[Grant_Vicat]

It might be worth pointing out that it is not such a good idea to have beer as your alcoholic beverage of choice @sunspots . It is not known as ‘liquid bread’ for nothing!

Strangely, when I was given a meal plan by a dietician (the only time!) in 1978, I was allowed one pint of beer to accompany lunch but told to ignore the carbs!

 

[Oldvatr]

If insulin caused all carbs to be stored as fat then everyone without diabetes (who has a healthy insulin producing pancreas) and everyone with Type 1 diabetes (who have no choice but to inject insulin to survive) would be overweight.

The Krebs Cycle (aka Citric Cycle) does indeed have a mode of operation where glucose gets stored in body cells as glycogen. It still requires insulin to activate this path. Once in the cell, there is another pathway where this stored fat is used to provide local energy instead of taking it from the blood supply. The cell has a 3 way bidirectional switch controlled by insulin and epinerinone (adrenalin) along with local conditions in the cell. Taking stored energy internal to the cell does not require insulin to operate it. Taking glucose from blood does requires either insulin or adrenaline to be there

Of course, it does depend on what you call fat. Glycogen and lipids and trigs are all different forms of fat. Some say cholesterol LDL and HDL are also fat.

 

[tzatziki_king]

Is anyone else finding that they can only enjoy anything with carbs if they pair it with an alcoholic drink? I'm struggling to eat anything with even just a few carbs without my BG shooting up (it'll only get worse once I run out of Victoza too). I get carb flu really, really badly so going low carb isn't an option, so I've ended up having to drink more

Your BG could go up for 2 reasons.
1: Do you carb count for the food you eat at meal times? If not then this could be 1 of the reasons.
2: Your background insulin may need adjusting with you having high BG so speak with your diabetes nurse regarding this. Hope this helps

 

[Oldvatr]

Your BG could go up for 2 reasons.
1: Do you carb count for the food you eat at meal times? If not then this could be 1 of the reasons.
2: Your background insulin may need adjusting with you having high BG so speak with your diabetes nurse regarding this. Hope this helps

The OP is not on insulin treatment. The injections are a T2D licenced medication, along with some orals. The OP does not appear to be following any diet that requires carb counting and has previoiusly tried Low carb without success.

 

[Beating-My-Betes]

If insulin caused all carbs to be stored as fat then everyone without diabetes (who has a healthy insulin producing pancreas) and everyone with Type 1 diabetes (who have no choice but to inject insulin to survive) would be overweight.

Exactly!

 

[David Paul]

Are those hypos confirmed with a fingerprick?
Numbers in the lower normal range can feel exactly like a hypo if your body is used to higher numbers.

Yes: I use an Accu-Chek meter alternating between middle & ring fingers in both hands. Have experimented testing both middle fingers simultaneously with the variable being 0.1 through 0.5 mml. I self fund my meter & needles as I feel it is in my own interest to know my blood glucose levels as it enables me to monitor & control my diet impacts. With the Accu-Check device comes an app to use on my I-phone which gives me an estimated HBA1C reading; depending on the level of testing, it has an error margin ranging from 1 to 10 mmol. On the build up to my Diabetic Nurse Clinic I test rigorously as to help achieve the closest result to the actual test on the day. Again, I have another App called “My Sugar” from NHS Scotland which allows me access to my Clinic results within two working days.
I went through a surgical procedure in May; my health has been quite difficult this year due to the carcinoma, & invariably has impacted my Diabetics quite severely. The Accu-Chek App enabled me to predict that my HBA1C would be 59 mmol; previously I had managed to bring it down to 44 mmol.
My result came back: 59 mmol!!!
I was not overly concerned regarding this as I knew once I had undergone the surgical procedure I would get back on track.
My long term goal still remains: to obtain my HBA1C readings at 35-37 mmol.

 

[David Paul]

Your BG could go up for 2 reasons.
1: Do you carb count for the food you eat at meal times? If not then this could be 1 of the reasons.
2: Your background insulin may need adjusting with you having high BG so speak with your diabetes nurse regarding this. Hope this helps

Please try the following:
2 egg omelette with a handful of grated cheddar cheese ( strength 4-6 is best). Have a small glass of white wine (125ml) with meal.
This meal always returns a normal range blood glucose reading post meal.

 

[lovinglife]

Please try the following:
2 egg omelette with a handful of grated cheddar cheese ( strength 4-6 is best). Have a small glass of white wine (125ml) with meal.
This meal always returns a normal range blood glucose reading post meal.

I can have that meal without the alcohol and I probably be mid 4s before and 5 or 5.1 2 hours after, perfectly normal levels, it’s an almost carb free meal. Don’t get me wrong I do like a drink now and then but wouldn’t use it to self medicate, for some that advice could be a slippery slope

 

[AloeSvea]

I really can't believe that you think that having an alcoholic drink to go with carbs is a good idea as a diabetic because it will simply make your blood glucose increase still further- that I do know. I'm a Type 1 on insulin for 62 years and one of the main things the specialist told me on diagnosis back then; was to keep off drinking alcohol at all costs if I wanted to keep control of my diabetes in my life.
I would respectfully suggest you speak with your diabetic doctor?

Hi there Captain Sensible. This is the major difference between type 1 and type 2. T2s - most T2s overproduce their own insulin that is chugging away overtime, to deal with too high blood glucose. It's not because insulin is absent, or becoming so as in insulin-deficient diabetes. T2s using diet as a way to control their condition could be very confused and disrupted to go to 'diabetic doctors' (which I guess you mean specialists?) as we live in interesting times when it comes to diet recommendations to T2s. Including regarding alcohol. Doctors refer T2s to nutritionists, as they are not trained in nutrition generally, unless they got T2 themselves! Then they can be magnificent.

Yes, alcohol is a toxin. But our species just loves it, as a rule. Hence the making of it in unnaturally (and I use that word literally) high levels of alcohol in a beverage. (I love evolutionary biology, and a great book on this subject is 'The Drunken Monkey'.) We get into deep doodoo historically, when officials try to take it off the menu for folks who want it!

And yes, it can help to regulate blood glucose, in a T2. Especially if liver dumping of self-made glucose is one of one's T2 issues. The trick is to consume without it being damaging, or for getting addicted. And that's a trick! To put it mildly.

 

[Antje77]

Hi there Captain Sensible. This is the major difference between type 1 and type 2.

Alcohol has no carbs, and its effects on glucose produced by the liver are exactly the same in T1's and T2's. And 'diabetic doctors' or endocrinologists who treat T1's aren't very knowledgable on nutrition usually.

 

[AloeSvea]

I hear you @Antje77.

 

[HeehlandHev]

Is anyone else finding that they can only enjoy anything with carbs if they pair it with an alcoholic drink? I'm struggling to eat anything with even just a few carbs without my BG shooting up (it'll only get worse once I run out of Victoza too). I get carb flu really, really badly so going low carb isn't an option, so I've ended up having to drink more

Alcohol could lead to Fatty Liver Disease. I’ve just been diagnosed with Non Alcholic Fatty Liver Disease, I don’t drink at all, once a year, I’m teetotal really. So I would just watch yourself with that. As high carbs and alcohol you could end up with a fatty liver like me.

 

[HeehlandHev]

@sunspots I'm not sure if you are being serious here. Alcohol is the worst way I can think of for lowering BG.

At least Berberine products (some of them), correct type of cinnamon (I forget which but apparently a common one doesn't work), do it without the potential problems of adding high calories, affecting judgement (it only takes 1 unit of alcohol to affect it), putting liver under pressure, getting drunk etc.

Which remedies did you try for 'Keto Flu'? I went Low Carb but never Keto, my BG levels just flirt around actually being in Ketosis each day.
The things I did were:
1. Drink plenty of fluids carbs retain fluid so when people go low carb/keto the pee out fluid quicker 9along with electrolytes) and so can get dehydrated more easily.
2. Take electrolyte supplements (though others find bone broth works well instead). I use lots of 'reduced Sodium Salt' This keeps both my Sodium and Potassium levels good, then I take a Magnesium supplement. My personal choice is Magnesium Glycinate (because it also helps with sleeping disorders) the cheaper Mag Citrate would give me looser bowels, which I don't need - LOL!

Does point 1, last forever, or does it improve after a while of low carb eating?

 

[HeehlandHev]

When I was first diagnosed, 9 years ago, my Dr wanted to bang me on metformin straightaway; I, however, did not submit to this pressure: I had just been taken off prednisolone after being parked up on it for 5 years. One month later, I was diagnosed with T-2 Diabetes! It took me 5 years to come to terms with being diagnosed Diabetic: I was in complete denial!
Since the age of 13 I have feared hypoglycaemia. When I am on my Diabetic Eating Regime, following to the letter, I have normal range numbers of 4-7mml: however, I invariably end up with daily hypos which, if you have ever experienced, you will know just how horrible they are!
The Meal Regime I have is my own strategy to prevent these hypos: it means I deliberately aim to keep my blood glucose numbers between 7 & 10.9 mml. I shared this my Dr & she agreed as long as I do not exceed 10.9 mml.
I have also had other separate health issues over the last 3 years which have had a major impact on tackling Diabetes: as you it a very complex & very personal Chronic Health condition which is very unique to each individual & their own personality.

Why were you on Prednisolone if you don’t mind me asking, or did you mean Prednisone (is it the same thing?).