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Pesky dawn phenomenon

Ok cool! I'll try that tomorrow.

Thank god for home health and the bulk but discounts, otherwise I'd have to remortgage the house!!


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Diagnosed prediabetic Easter 2014. Just left to get on with it, no guidance or help from GP. Every day I'm learning something new.
 
Debmcgee said:
Ok cool! I'll try that tomorrow.

Thank god for home health and the bulk but discounts, otherwise I'd have to remortgage the house!!


Sent from the Diabetes Forum App

Diagnosed prediabetic Easter 2014. Just left to get on with it, no guidance or help from GP. Every day I'm learning something new.
Click to expand...

I think the important thing is to be consistent in your approach. I find I get that consistency by getting up, loo, filling the kettle, and testing as it boils. On a day I weigh myself, I also do that in that window. I therefore know I have tested and weighed, if relevant, within 5 minutes of my feet hitting the floor. It just makes it simple for me, and I don't have to be too awake. :):singing:
 
Just wanted to let you know my progress. Had walnuts and cheese for supper last night. Well, 8am this morning - the usual problem - 5.6. But, had a teaspoon of peanut butter while making my tea, just tested an hour later, now 5.1! Think I might be on to something........
Mind you, it was probably the most disgusting thing I have eaten off a spoon first thing so may have to tweak it a bit :yuck:
 
Peanut butter does not work. Tested just before breakfast 2 hours after getting up and 6.7. Why can't my liver just let me get my own breakfast?

Has anyone any tips on the best thing to have for breakfast in these situations? Had scrambled egg and avocado today but it would be a faf doing that on a weekday.

Have come to the conclusion it might be the wine with my dinner reaking havoc. Not happy now.
 
I have a 200ml glass of red wine with my evening meals between 2 and 4 times a week. (approx. 7-30pm) Same type of wine, same amount. It makes no difference to my morning levels at all. It does seem to help with my evening meal spike though! Alcohol freezes the liver temporarily, so must have some effect.
 
Tweetypie said:
Just wanted to let you know my progress. Had walnuts and cheese for supper last night. Well, 8am this morning - the usual problem - 5.6. But, had a teaspoon of peanut butter while making my tea, just tested an hour later, now 5.1! Think I might be on to something........
Mind you, it was probably the most disgusting thing I have eaten off a spoon first thing so may have to tweak it a bit :yuck:
Click to expand...

Isn't 5.6 good?


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Diagnosed prediabetic Easter 2014. Just left to get on with it, no guidance or help from GP. Every day I'm learning something new.
 
The 5.6 doesn't worry me as such, but after doing my little experiments, I have found it continues to rise (not to dangerous levels) until I eat breakfast. I hope that further testing will reveal whether eating some nuts on waking will help prevent this as I'm sick of feeling pressured to get my breakfast as soon as I get up.
But, thanks for the reassurance x
 
Week 4

This experiment is REALLY paying off. I am learning so much!

This week was a full 7 days of 6 cashews at bedtime, and 6 on waking before getting out of bed.

Mon. Waking 6.5, pre breakfast 6.4 = -0.1
Tue. Waking 6.6, pre breakfast 6.8 = +0.2
Wed. Waking 6.5, pre breakfast 8.0 = +1.5
Thur. Waking 7.5, pre breakfast 7.1 = -0.4
Fri. Waking 6.3, pre breakfast 6.2 = -0.1
Sat. Waking 6.6, pre breakfast 6.3 = -0.3
Sun. Waking 6.6, pre breakfast 6.3 = -0.3


Analysis:

  • Wednesday is a weird blip. Until I explain that it was a day when I woke a bit early to torrential downpour, and lay in bed worriting about arriving to work for a meeting looking like a drowned rat. Think we can put this down to stress
  • All the other remaining days showed a small rise, or bigger drop. Average drop of -0.17!!!
  • I didn't think a drop like that was possible, a month ago.

Tentative conclusions:

  • Wow. This is working well. On ordinary days, I am now showing a small drop. Approx same as last week. And wonderfully less than my original average rise of 1.5
  • I think Wednesday's figures should be discarded because of the rain-stress
  • Except that Wednesday gives a very clear indication that stress is a trigger for my dawn phenomenon liver dump. Actually, I would go further and say that comparatively small levels of stress will do this. My liver dump appears to be on a hair trigger! After all, rain is not really a major stressor to my conscious mind, but apparently it stimulates fight-or-flight to my unconscious!!! Also worth noticing that even this apparently high-stress rain trauma produced a smaller rise than I got nearly every day before my cheese and cashew regime. That alone is a delightful result
  • I'm actually starting to wonder if I taught my own body to do this, during the 15 years or so when I never ate breakfast. Was it as simple as that? Forcing my body to provide fuel to last the morning, because I wasn't eating that fuel?

Next steps:

I'm going to switch to Brazil nuts tonight. Will there be an adjustment period, like when I switched to cashews? Brazils are higher fat, than cashews.

And I'm setting my fitbit buzzy alarm for the middle of the night each day this week. I will test and record the times. I am curious to plot when my dawn phenomenon starts.

Am I getting obsessive about this?
Possibly.
But in a good way, of course ;)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Brunneria said:
Week 4

This experiment is REALLY paying off. I am learning so much!

This week was a full 7 days of 6 cashews at bedtime, and 6 on waking before getting out of bed.

Mon. Waking 5.8, pre breakfast 7.0 = +1.2
Tue. Waking 6.5, pre breakfast 6.4 = -0.1
Wed. Waking 6.6, pre breakfast 6.8 = +0.2
Thur. Waking 6.5, pre breakfast 8.0 = +1.5
Fri. Waking 7.5, pre breakfast 7.1 = -0.4
Sat. Waking 6.3, pre breakfast 6.2 = -0.1
Sun. Waking 6.6, pre breakfast 6.3 = -0.3

Analysis:

  • Monday was the 4th day of cashews. Of those 4 days, 3 of them had rises of over 1. I'm thinking it took these 4 days to adjust to the increased carbs in the cashews after weeks of very low carb cheese strings. But that is pure speculation.
  • Thursday is a weird blip. Until I explain that it was a day when I woke a bit early to torrential downpour, and lay in bed worriting about arriving to work for a meeting looking like a drowned rat. Think we can put this down to stress
  • All the other remaining days showed a small rise, or bigger drop. Average drop of -0.13
  • I didn't think that was possible, a month ago.

Tentative conclusions:

  • Wow. This is working well. On ordinary days, I am now showing a small drop. Approx same as last week. And wonderfully less than my original average rise of 1.5
  • I think Wednesday's figures should be discarded because of the rain-stress
  • Except that Wednesday gives a very clear indication that stress is a trigger for my dawn phenomenon liver dump. Actually, I would go further and say that comparatively small levels of stress will do this. My liver dump appears to be on a hair trigger! After all, rain is not really a major stressor to my conscious mind, but apparently it stimulates fight-or-flight to my unconscious!!! Also worth noticing that even this apparently high-stress rain trauma produced a smaller rise than I got nearly every day before my cheese and cashew regime. That alone is a delightful result
  • I'm actually starting to wonder if I taught my own body to do this, during the 15 years or so when I never ate breakfast. Was it as simple as that? Forcing my body to provide fuel to last the morning, because I wasn't eating that fuel?

Next steps:

I'm going to switch to Brazil nuts tonight. Will there be an adjustment period, like when I switched to cashews? Brazils are higher fat, than cashews.

And I'm setting my fitbit buzzy alarm for the middle of the night each day this week. I will test and record the times. I am curious to plot when my dawn phenomenon starts.

Am I getting obsessive about this?
Possibly.
But in a good way, of course ;)
Click to expand...
Hi Brunneria,
Apologies if you have already said this, but have you lowered your carb intake recently? I only ask because I know someone who has lowered their carb intake and has found that their liver glucose release directly after exercise has reduced quite significantly - I am thinking that this would probably be the case for dawn phenomenon too. Just wondering if that might have any bearing atall on your results?
Bx
 
Hi @Bebo321

Interesting comment. And I can see how reducing glycogen stores would reduce the amount the liver can dump, whether at dawn or after exercise.

Long story short - no, I've been low carbing fairly strictly for about 2 years now, after over 15 years of lowish carbs before that. I do occasionally fall off the wagon (but still less than a 'normal' person eats). I don't actually count my carbs, but I would guess I'm in the range of 25-90 g carbs a day, and I'd count over 70 as a bad day. This level of carb eating has definitely been consistent since I started testing several times daily (about 4 months ago).
 
Unfortunately we seem to have little/no control over gluconeogenesis by the liver. From what I can tell, the only drug that seems to inhibit it is metformin. And since I can't take metformin, I suspect I'm stuck with my liver doing what it wants to do? I keep trying to get my head around this side of diabetes, but I seem to get more confused the more I read :bigtears:
 
Indy51 said:
Unfortunately we seem to have little/no control over gluconeogenesis by the liver. From what I can tell, the only drug that seems to inhibit it is metformin. And since I can't take metformin, I suspect I'm stuck with my liver doing what it wants to do? I keep trying to get my head around this side of diabetes, but I seem to get more confused the more I read :bigtears:
Click to expand...
Hi Indy51,
It has only be very recently that the process by which metformin works has actually been understood (although this is still only within rats!) From what I understand there is a 'hormone' within the liver that basically acts as the switch to stop the liver releasing glucose into the blood. Apparently metformin literally behaves as the active part of this chemical - hence it's usefulness. As far as I can tell, that's the only effect it has in relation to diabetes (it doesn't improve insulin resistance for example)
If you are unable to take metformin, do you have particular times of day when you get spikes? (Other than dawn phenomena) Do you spike even after a low carb meal etc? (Apologies Brunnaria for the digression)
 
Brunneria said:
Hi @Bebo321

Interesting comment. And I can see how reducing glycogen stores would reduce the amount the liver can dump, whether at dawn or after exercise.

Long story short - no, I've been low carbing fairly strictly for about 2 years now, after over 15 years of lowish carbs before that. I do occasionally fall off the wagon (but still less than a 'normal' person eats). I don't actually count my carbs, but I would guess I'm in the range of 25-90 g carbs a day, and I'd count over 70 as a bad day. This level of carb eating has definitely been consistent since I started testing several times daily (about 4 months ago).
Click to expand...

Hi Brunnaria,
Many thanks for this - okay so diet in this respect won't be having an effect.
I suspect that lower glycogen stores aren't actually the cause of the lowered liver glucose release for my friend (he's exercising regularly, and Type 1, so re-stocking properly during and after exercise - just basically low carb at all meals):)
Just out of interest, do you think one week of your experiment you could try eating a pickle first thing in the morning (ewww!) Probably not an idea that fills you with joy - but I suspect it may have a positive effect.;)
 
Bebo321 said:
Hi Brunnaria,
Many thanks for this - okay so diet in this respect won't be having an effect.
I suspect that lower glycogen stores aren't actually the cause of the lowered liver glucose release for my friend (he's exercising regularly, and Type 1, so re-stocking properly during and after exercise - just basically low carb at all meals):)
Just out of interest, do you think one week of your experiment you could try eating a pickle first thing in the morning (ewww!) Probably not an idea that fills you with joy - but I suspect it may have a positive effect.;)
Click to expand...

:eek:
Gherkin? Onion? Egg?
Is it the vinegar?
If so, why?
I may need a little convincing on this...?

FYI, I have a weird hormone setup that may be a contributing factor to my dawn phenomenon. It's caused by micro prolactinoma of the pituitary gland - basically, I produce much larger quantities of prolactin than is usual. I'm treated, but it doesn't reduce the prolactin to normal levels. I suspect that several other hormones are thrown out of wack as a result. I was tested for Cushings (adrenal gland extra production) which was negative 15 yrs ago. But I suspect that since the pituitary is 'the master gland' there are a few knock on effects to a number of hormones (including the stress ones?). This might affect my dawn phenomenon but of course I have no evidence. And I can't justify asking for a battery of hormone testing to examine it...
 
Bebo321 said:
Hi Brunnaria,
Many thanks for this - okay so diet in this respect won't be having an effect.
I suspect that lower glycogen stores aren't actually the cause of the lowered liver glucose release for my friend (he's exercising regularly, and Type 1, so re-stocking properly during and after exercise - just basically low carb at all meals):)
Just out of interest, do you think one week of your experiment you could try eating a pickle first thing in the morning (ewww!) Probably not an idea that fills you with joy - but I suspect it may have a positive effect.;)
Click to expand...

Poor Mr B lol



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Just a thought. I take my daily brisk 30-40 minute walk anywhere between 8 and 11 pm but more often than not, around 9:30pm. I wonder if this is the reason my morning bg is fairly stable?

Those of you who are struggling with DP, have you experimented with your exercise timing?


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peacetrain said:
Just a thought. I take my daily brisk 30-40 minute walk anywhere between 8 and 11 pm but more often than not, around 9:30pm. I wonder if this is the reason my morning bg is fairly stable?

Those of you who are struggling with DP, have you experimented with your exercise timing?


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Click to expand...

I walk to work every workday at 8am. It only takes 12 mins, but it ends with a brisk 3 flights up to the office. On weekends, we tend to walk the hound (a mile or two) at around 9am. I would struggle to rearrange these schedules, for practical reasons, but I can see that adjusting morning exercise could help people.

One thing I would be very wary of doing would be to exercise first thing on an empty stomach. I know that some people suggest it as a good thing, but surely it is just training your liver to up its glucose dumping, to fuel the exercise?

Even climbing a flight of stairs before brekkie shoots my BG up (as I say 'hair trigger').
 
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