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Pesky dawn phenomenon

Brunneria said:
I walk to work every workday at 8am. It only takes 12 mins, but it ends with a brisk 3 flights up to the office. On weekends, we tend to walk the hound (a mile or two) at around 9am. I would struggle to rearrange these schedules, for practical reasons, but I can see that adjusting morning exercise could help people.

One thing I would be very wary of doing would be to exercise first thing on an empty stomach. I know that some people suggest it as a good thing, but surely it is just training your liver to up its glucose dumping, to fuel the exercise?

Even climbing a flight of stairs before brekkie shoots my BG up (as I say 'hair trigger').
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I wonder if you mis read my post? I take my exercise in the evening. I work full time and can't fit my exercise in any other time during the week. I was suggesting that it might be worth trying some pre bedtime exercise. I'm no expert, but I wondered if it was worth a try. :-)


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peacetrain said:
I wonder if you mis read my post? I take my exercise in the evening. I work full time and can't fit my exercise in any other time during the week. I was suggesting that it might be worth trying some pre bedtime exercise. I'm no expert, but I wondered if it was worth a try. :)


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Oops - yes, I did!

Thanks for the suggestion.
 
Brunneria said:
:eek:
Gherkin? Onion? Egg?
Is it the vinegar?
If so, why?
I may need a little convincing on this...?

FYI, I have a weird hormone setup that may be a contributing factor to my dawn phenomenon. It's caused by micro prolactinoma of the pituitary gland - basically, I produce much larger quantities of prolactin than is usual. I'm treated, but it doesn't reduce the prolactin to normal levels. I suspect that several other hormones are thrown out of wack as a result. I was tested for Cushings (adrenal gland extra production) which was negative 15 yrs ago. But I suspect that since the pituitary is 'the master gland' there are a few knock on effects to a number of hormones (including the stress ones?). This might affect my dawn phenomenon but of course I have no evidence. And I can't justify asking for a battery of hormone testing to examine it...
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Holy moly,
A lot going on there!
Reference the pickle - acetic acid yes. Wondering how much the effect is 'food' vs acetic or citric acid (cheese straws contain citric acid)
Bx
 
debbiiee said:
Hi
@Bebo321
Could u please provide any links regarding the new research findings on metformin? Its surprising that metformin has nothing to do with insulin resistance:oops:

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Hi there Debbiiee,

Sure, this is where I read about it - it doesn't mention insulin resistance around the rest of the body (even though metformin demonstrably affects other parts of the body)
I would be interested on your take on this too and see if you draw the same conclusion.
Bx
http://www.diabetesincontrol.com/contact-us/6740-new-information-on-how-metformin-works
 
peacetrain said:
I wonder if you mis read my post? I take my exercise in the evening. I work full time and can't fit my exercise in any other time during the week. I was suggesting that it might be worth trying some pre bedtime exercise. I'm no expert, but I wondered if it was worth a try. :)


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Hi there,
Not sure if this would help everybody - Brunnaria are you up for being guinea pig for yet another experiment?!;)
(I think we could evidence the benefits of being a flouncing 42er here - dancing around in nighties before bedtime - apologies for those of you who haven't been following the 'new you in 42' thread):D
 
Bebo321 said:
Hi there Debbiiee,

Sure, this is where I read about it - it doesn't mention insulin resistance around the rest of the body (even though metformin demonstrably affects other parts of the body)
I would be interested on your take on this too and see if you draw the same conclusion.
Bx
http://www.diabetesincontrol.com/contact-us/6740-new-information-on-how-metformin-works
Click to expand...


Interesting that they gave the mice a high fat diet in order to increase their insulin resistance! I wonder what affect this might have on LCHF diets when our aim is to decrease insulin resistance.
 
Thankyou Bebo:) I read somewhere as metformin decreases glucagon dependent glucose output from liver by inhibiting an enzyme. So researches target this enzyme for a new drug development without the possible side effects of metformin...

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Been thinking about @peacetrain 's suggestion re evening exercise.

I feel a deep, visceral reluctance to do this - which is probably why I SHOULD do it - and possibly why I misread peacetrain's post!

So... I will have a mull. Maybe try the cashews for a day or two and see if my readings change. If they don't, I might try a wee ramble after dinner. The dog will love it. He is already the buffest shih tzu we've ever seen. Adding another daily walk might just push him over the edge into athleticism... o_O
 
Brunneria said:
Been thinking about @peacetrain 's suggestion re evening exercise.

I feel a deep, visceral reluctance to do this - which is probably why I SHOULD do it - and possibly why I misread peacetrain's post!

So... I will have a mull. Maybe try the cashews for a day or two and see if my readings change. If they don't, I might try a wee ramble after dinner. The dog will love it. He is already the buffest shih tzu we've ever seen. Adding another daily walk might just push him over the edge into athleticism... o_O
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Oh Blimey! Midnight dog walking and pickled breath! I wonder if perhaps you wish you hadn't started this thread now?! :***: Poor Brunneria! x
 
Bebo321 said:
Oh Blimey! Midnight dog walking and pickled breath! I wonder if perhaps you wish you hadn't started this thread now?! :***: Poor Brunneria! x
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Lol.
Ran your pickle acetic acid theory past my Other Half.
The look of horror on his face was priceless.
 
I set up my own little experiment! No exercise yesterday and I switched to the ordinary metformin from sr version. My nurse thought it might be better because the sr seems to be keeping my bg low . It's a stepping stone because she thinks I should try coming off the metformin. I only have one 500mg with evening meal. So ... I usually eat as soon as I've checked my bg in the morning. This morning I'm back at work so I woke at 6 (bg 5.3), got ready and went to work and now I've arrived - bg 5.5). Now I'll go and have some breakfast. I should add that, as I was on holiday last week, I was waking a couple of hours later.


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Brunneria said:
One thing I would be very wary of doing would be to exercise first thing on an empty stomach. I know that some people suggest it as a good thing, but surely it is just training your liver to up its glucose dumping, to fuel the exercise?

Even climbing a flight of stairs before brekkie shoots my BG up (as I say 'hair trigger').
Click to expand...

As someone who has tested this theory a few times, I can also vouch that exercising before breakfast on an empty stomach doesn't help. A few times now I have tried this and it only makes it worse for me too. Eventually it would come back down but it makes me feel rough. I am enjoying reading all the comments but I do seem to be getting more confused. Just need to find a technique that works for me too.

Yesterday, I woke at 4.30, to the usual 5.6. Tried a few berries, yoghurt and a few seeds. Went back to bed. Up at 7, results had risen and behaved the same until my breakfast of omelette and rocket.

Still got to try the nuts on waking as trying to avoid it (can't get used to the idea of eating as soon as I wake up)
 
My DP, if that's what it is, is changing. For the past 7 days my fasting level has dropped significantly without doing anything different, and this morning was the lowest ever at 5.4 despite evening meal half an hour later than normal at 7.30pm. Chicken, 3 roast spuds, carrots, peas and gravy, and a glass of red wine. Went to bed on 6. I can only put this down to either coming off statins or weight loss suddenly beginning to work on insulin resistance.
I still can't get my pre-lunch levels down though. I seem to get a liver dump during the morning after breakfast.
 
Some people definitely find that their fasting levels come down after weight loss or a prolonged period of good BG control. I've read many people say to be patient, that though the fasting level is usually the last to behave itself, eventually it will fall into line - but as with everything else, there are exceptions to every rule. If you're in the early stages of trying to get a handle on all of it, I would try not to stress about it too much. Try to be patient as it's definitely the hardest level to get control over.
 
Remembered ACV last night and had 4 almonds at 4 am (was up this early for another reason). Tested later at 8am and 5.3! Am hoping my liver will not be expecting me up at 4am every morning though! Still putting off nuts on waking but I feel this is inevitable. Didn't even get a spike after my livlife toast for breakfast!

Had two largish new potatoes at dinner last night but no wine. Am also going to try exercising before dinner as suggested by bebo123.

Wishing everyone else luck with their DP quest x
 
Bluetit1802 said:
My DP, if that's what it is, is changing. For the past 7 days my fasting level has dropped significantly without doing anything different, and this morning was the lowest ever at 5.4 despite evening meal half an hour later than normal at 7.30pm. Chicken, 3 roast spuds, carrots, peas and gravy, and a glass of red wine. Went to bed on 6. I can only put this down to either coming off statins or weight loss suddenly beginning to work on insulin resistance.
I still can't get my pre-lunch levels down though. I seem to get a liver dump during the morning after breakfast.
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This might sound like a daft question, but are you taking account of the carbs in drinks like cups of tea/coffee etc? Are you sure it's DF and not BG rise from carbs? - I find it interesting that you are getting this response from your body at this time of day.
 
Bebo321 said:
This might sound like a daft question, but are you taking account of the carbs in drinks like cups of tea/coffee etc? Are you sure it's DF and not BG rise from carbs? - I find it interesting that you are getting this response from your body at this time of day.
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Not a daft question at all, and one I ask myself. I do take account of carbs in tea but only have a small splash of milk and no more than 2 cups in a morning, one with breakfast, one a bit later. I have breakfast well within 20 minutes of getting up and only have yogurt and a few berries plus a cup of tea. An hour or two later I have a 20 minute walk, then water.

Until the last week my fasting and before lunch levels have been flat, identical average at 6.2. For the past 7 days my fasting has come down and averages 5.8 (as low as 5.4) but pre-lunch has stayed the same at just above 6 with no changes to my morning routine. I do not have the same problem in the afternoons as my pre-dinner levels average 5.2 (some in the 4's)

I give up. It's a lottery. :confused:
 
Bluetit1802 said:
Not a daft question at all, and one I ask myself. I do take account of carbs in tea but only have a small splash of milk and no more than 2 cups in a morning, one with breakfast, one a bit later. I have breakfast well within 20 minutes of getting up and only have yogurt and a few berries plus a cup of tea. An hour or two later I have a 20 minute walk, then water.

Until the last week my fasting and before lunch levels have been flat, identical average at 6.2. For the past 7 days my fasting has come down and averages 5.8 (as low as 5.4) but pre-lunch has stayed the same at just above 6 with no changes to my morning routine. I do not have the same problem in the afternoons as my pre-dinner levels average 5.2 (some in the 4's)

I give up. It's a lottery. :confused:
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Great results Bluetit1802!
I love the fact that you are so on top of your diabetes!
A few thoughts about what you are experiencing ;
Firstly, weight loss will no doubt be having a positive affect on your BGs, as your insulin resistance will have improved and I would suggest that this is why your fasting levels are lower.
Consuming carbs for breakfast (even a small amount) will inevitably raise your BGs a little, but the only way to know for certain that this is the cause is by cooking yourself up a bit of bacon and eggs (if you can face it) instead, and see what result this has on your pre-lunch reading.
It does seem odd that you are not maintaining the same levels as before however - perhaps someone else on the forum could enlighten you there.

Just out of interest, have you tried more vigorous exercise too see what effect that has on your BGs? It might be something to consider if your fitness level allows - or if not something you could work up to?Although intense exercise will ordinarily cause your blood glucose levels to rise, however if you follow it with a period of moderate exercise you should enable to bring the level back down again.

I only ask, because the beneficial effects of higher intensity exercise actually last longer (possibly even up to 24hrs or so) and I am wondering if that might help you get your fasting bloods down even lower, whilst also improving your insulin sensitivity further.
Perhaps before you go on your walk, you could do some gentle stretches and warm up your muscles - jog on the spot for a couple of minutes then run on the spot as fast as you can for a minute or so - then go on your walk as usual. See if this makes further improvements.

Anyway, it's just a thought. Either way you are doing a brilliant job at managing your diabetes - you should feel very proud of yourself.:)
 
Bebo321 said:
Great results Bluetit1802!
I love the fact that you are so on top of your diabetes!
A few thoughts about what you are experiencing ;
Firstly, weight loss will no doubt be having a positive affect on your BGs, as your insulin resistance will have improved and I would suggest that this is why your fasting levels are lower.
Consuming carbs for breakfast (even a small amount) will inevitably raise your BGs a little, but the only way to know for certain that this is the cause is by cooking yourself up a bit of bacon and eggs (if you can face it) instead, and see what result this has on your pre-lunch reading.
It does seem odd that you are not maintaining the same levels as before however - perhaps someone else on the forum could enlighten you there.

Just out of interest, have you tried more vigorous exercise too see what effect that has on your BGs? It might be something to consider if your fitness level allows - or if not something you could work up to?Although intense exercise will ordinarily cause your blood glucose levels to rise, however if you follow it with a period of moderate exercise you should enable to bring the level back down again.

I only ask, because the beneficial effects of higher intensity exercise actually last longer (possibly even up to 24hrs or so) and I am wondering if that might help you get your fasting bloods down even lower, whilst also improving your insulin sensitivity further.
Perhaps before you go on your walk, you could do some gentle stretches and warm up your muscles - jog on the spot for a couple of minutes then run on the spot as fast as you can for a minute or so - then go on your walk as usual. See if this makes further improvements.

Anyway, it's just a thought. Either way you are doing a brilliant job at managing your diabetes - you should feel very proud of yourself.:)
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Bebo321, I think your advice is brilliant and I will certainly be trying this myself. I prefer to exercise first thing but I find because of DP, I can't - very frustrating!
 
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