Pesky dawn phenomenon

[Ian DP]

What I meant is not to drink tea or coffee before testing.
I have found that if I have a cup of tea before testing (up to an hour beforehand) it raises my BG levels.
If I were to have a cup of tea first thing in the morning, then test, my BG levels would definitely be higher.



Diagnosed T2 in sept 2013, BS levels 20+. BMI 22, age 58. Requested a GAD test in November, came back very high 2,000+, doc said I would be T1 very soon, but presently LADA, and managing to keep 99% of my BS readings one hour after meals under 7.8 without insulin or any medication.
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[Ian DP]

I did some late evening exercise last night and woke to my lowest BG reading for months.
Food / carb wise same as normal.
I did 15 mins on the exercise bike at 9:30pm, enough to get a bit sweaty.
Maybe a one off, just coincidence, but I will be trying it again tonight.



Diagnosed T2 in sept 2013, BS levels 20+. BMI 22, age 58. Requested a GAD test in November, came back very high 2,000+, doc said I would be T1 very soon, but presently LADA, and managing to keep 99% of my BS readings one hour after meals under 7.8 without insulin or any medication.
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[gfmoore]

Referring to an earlier post about vinegar. Some swear by it, but a tablespoon of apple cider before bed (in water) didn't do it for me.

It tastes disgusting, but does have a tendency to help with the morning visit to the loo.

In another thread I mentioned some experiments I had done with metformin.

As I understand it metf acts to stop the liver doing its gluconeogenesis thing and dumping glucose.

So whilst waking every hour and testing and taking a 500mg tab or 1gs worth at different times I noted that my bg rise, which begins about 1-2am could be delayed for about an hour or two during the night, but eventually the liver won out and my level rose to 7 -8. Then I watch it slowly decrease all day to the 5s, sometimes the 4s. But by 1am the cycle starts again.

Im trying really hard on the lo carb approach, rarely have breakfast, just protein for lunch at 12noon and dinner at 7pm.

I think I need to try fasting to see if the delayed protein effect is the root cause, but need to get my head into that.

Also about to come off meds completely to try and clear up a dry cough Ive had for three months now.

Oh tried the brazils this am, but no joy for me, 8.2 this am, but I have stopped the metf and I know that this has a big effect on any control.

Gordon

 

[Bebo321]

Referring to an earlier post about vinegar. Some swear by it, but a tablespoon of apple cider before bed (in water) didn't do it for me.

It tastes disgusting, but does have a tendency to help with the morning visit to the loo.

In another thread I mentioned some experiments I had done with metformin.

As I understand it metf acts to stop the liver doing its gluconeogenesis thing and dumping glucose.

So whilst waking every hour and testing and taking a 500mg tab or 1gs worth at different times I noted that my bg rise, which begins about 1-2am could be delayed for about an hour or two during the night, but eventually the liver won out and my level rose to 7 -8. Then I watch it slowly decrease all day to the 5s, sometimes the 4s. But by 1am the cycle starts again.

Im trying really hard on the lo carb approach, rarely have breakfast, just protein for lunch at 12noon and dinner at 7pm.

I think I need to try fasting to see if the delayed protein effect is the root cause, but need to get my head into that.

Also about to come off meds completely to try and clear up a dry cough Ive had for three months now.

Oh tried the brazils this am, but no joy for me, 8.2 this am, but I have stopped the metf and I know that this has a big effect on any control.

Gordon

Like your dedication to the life of a guinea pig! Lol!

Just a thought, have you like IanDP tried exercise to get your results lower? If you can do a bit of exercise and combine that with a little glug of vinegar in water it might give much better results - it appears vinegar is an aid to glycogen replenishment - reducing BGs in the process. Just a thought.

Have you had your cough checked out? - if you're unwell it could be naturally elevating your BGs.
Hoping you recover soon.

 

[Bebo321]

I did some late evening exercise last night and woke to my lowest BG reading for months.
Food / carb wise same as normal.
I did 15 mins on the exercise bike at 9:30pm, enough to get a bit sweaty.
Maybe a one off, just coincidence, but I will be trying it again tonight.



Diagnosed T2 in sept 2013, BS levels 20+. BMI 22, age 58. Requested a GAD test in November, came back very high 2,000+, doc said I would be T1 very soon, but presently LADA, and managing to keep 99% of my BS readings one hour after meals under 7.8 without insulin or any medication.
Sent from the Diabetes Forum App

Would love to hear if this pattern repeats IanDP - it's logical that it should work.
Here's hoping that you can evidence that it's a straightforward way to get results that anybody could try.

 

[Brunneria]

Referring to an earlier post about vinegar. Some swear by it, but a tablespoon of apple cider before bed (in water) didn't do it for me.

It tastes disgusting, but does have a tendency to help with the morning visit to the loo.

In another thread I mentioned some experiments I had done with metformin.

As I understand it metf acts to stop the liver doing its gluconeogenesis thing and dumping glucose.

So whilst waking every hour and testing and taking a 500mg tab or 1gs worth at different times I noted that my bg rise, which begins about 1-2am could be delayed for about an hour or two during the night, but eventually the liver won out and my level rose to 7 -8. Then I watch it slowly decrease all day to the 5s, sometimes the 4s. But by 1am the cycle starts again.

Im trying really hard on the lo carb approach, rarely have breakfast, just protein for lunch at 12noon and dinner at 7pm.

I think I need to try fasting to see if the delayed protein effect is the root cause, but need to get my head into that.

Also about to come off meds completely to try and clear up a dry cough Ive had for three months now.

Oh tried the brazils this am, but no joy for me, 8.2 this am, but I have stopped the metf and I know that this has a big effect on any control.

Gordon

Don't give up on the Brazils yet - it took a couple of weeks for things to settle down for me. And I was starting with cheese. Still don't know how much of a difference that makes...

 

[gfmoore]

Exercise? What the heck's that? Does it mean getting up off the sofa during the next two months. if so forget it, the World Cup is starting. Come on you [insert colour here]

 

[sunspots]

Referring to an earlier post about vinegar. Some swear by it, but a tablespoon of apple cider before bed (in water) didn't do it for me.

It tastes disgusting, but does have a tendency to help with the morning visit to the loo.

In another thread I mentioned some experiments I had done with metformin.

As I understand it metf acts to stop the liver doing its gluconeogenesis thing and dumping glucose.

So whilst waking every hour and testing and taking a 500mg tab or 1gs worth at different times I noted that my bg rise, which begins about 1-2am could be delayed for about an hour or two during the night, but eventually the liver won out and my level rose to 7 -8. Then I watch it slowly decrease all day to the 5s, sometimes the 4s. But by 1am the cycle starts again.

Im trying really hard on the lo carb approach, rarely have breakfast, just protein for lunch at 12noon and dinner at 7pm.

I think I need to try fasting to see if the delayed protein effect is the root cause, but need to get my head into that.

Also about to come off meds completely to try and clear up a dry cough Ive had for three months now.

Oh tried the brazils this am, but no joy for me, 8.2 this am, but I have stopped the metf and I know that this has a big effect on any control.

Gordon

I've been following all this, but not yet trying it all, as my high morning BGs used to depress me so much that I just gave up completely for a few years .

Now I'm having a cataract operation and have grasped the nettle. I've been on LCHF for almost 2 weeks now (my pre-op assessment urine today had "lots of ketones" according to an anxious-looking nurse; I grinned and gave her a thumbs up). But although my daytime BGs are now between 6.0 and 7.0 my mornings have remained high at 8-9. After your post about metformin I took mine just before bed last night and when I got up (6 hours later) my level was 6.0!

HOWEVER. I then had about 200g Total yoghurt with 4 Brazil nuts, my coffee (admittedly double espresso) and then took a brisk walk to the eye hospital which took about 40 mins. The nurse checked my BG about 2 hours after I'd eaten and despite the exercise it was 7.8

There seems to be little rhyme or reason to it but, like everyone here, I'll keep experimenting!

 

[cold ethyl]

I have to ask, did you take your name from the Cope song?

Hope the eye op goes well when it comes. x

 

[gfmoore]

This is my DP for last 8 days - all sorts of experiments - note the steep fall off today and I had four sausages and cheese for lunch and a few strawberries, cream and a few nuts. Compare to slow fall off yesterday - it's just crazy crazy stuff.

Note the hyper, hypo, yellow zone and blue zone are just my personal targets.

 

[Bebo321]

I've been following all this, but not yet trying it all, as my high morning BGs used to depress me so much that I just gave up completely for a few years .

Now I'm having a cataract operation and have grasped the nettle. I've been on LCHF for almost 2 weeks now (my pre-op assessment urine today had "lots of ketones" according to an anxious-looking nurse; I grinned and gave her a thumbs up). But although my daytime BGs are now between 6.0 and 7.0 my mornings have remained high at 8-9. After your post about metformin I took mine just before bed last night and when I got up (6 hours later) my level was 6.0!

HOWEVER. I then had about 200g Total yoghurt with 4 Brazil nuts, my coffee (admittedly double espresso) and then took a brisk walk to the eye hospital which took about 40 mins. The nurse checked my BG about 2 hours after I'd eaten and despite the exercise it was 7.8

There seems to be little rhyme or reason to it but, like everyone here, I'll keep experimenting!

Hi there sunspots!
Yay! Another guinea pig.
Great that taking metformin in the evening helped.
I had a thought about your higher BG level at the eye hospital, and wondered if it might have been a bit of a rise from the exercise and a little anxiety for the eye exam
You won't know for sure unless you do the same again with perhaps a slightly more leisurely walk and without the eye hospital thrown into the mix.
Just out of interest, did your bloods come back down nicely later on in the day?

 

[Bebo321]

View attachment 5232

This is my DP for last two weeks - all sorts of experiments - note the steep fall off today and I had four sausages and cheese for lunch and a few strawberries, cream and a few nuts. Compare to slow fall off yesterday - it's just crazy crazy stuff.

Note the hyper, hypo, yellow zone and blue zone are just my personal targets.

Great looking results gfmoore!
You must be chuffed to bits!

 

[gfmoore]

@Bebo321 - compared to a month ago I guess I am, but this DP is driving me nuts. It would be nice to let my body rest for a bit overnight, nice stable line in the blue. btw in case anyone's interested my bg went don to 4.0 just now. Need to watch it doesn't go much lower.

How much damage can these morning spikes do in the long run?

 

[Bebo321]

@Bebo321 - compared to a month ago I guess I am, but this DP is driving me nuts. It would be nice to let my body rest for a bit overnight, nice stable line in the blue. btw in case anyone's interested my bg went don to 4.0 just now. Need to watch it doesn't go much lower.

How much damage can these morning spikes do in the long run?

I'm afraid I'm no expert in predicting health outcomes. Your data looks really very good to me, but have a chat with your doctor if you have any concerns.

With regards to DP, though you may not like it, evening exercise might actually help you keep your bloods down overnight.
It doesn't have to be strenuous, but the theory should go like this:

When you do 30 mins or so moderate exercise, your major muscle groups power your activity through their on-board glycogen stores (this is how they store glucose).

After 20mins or so, your muscles actually begin to take glucose out of the bloodstream to fuel the activity too - which is why your blood glucose levels begin to drop.

Within your muscle cells, you have what's known as GLUT4 transporters or receptors. These receptors allow your muscle cells to take up glucose without any need for circulating insulin. During exercise the receptors become mobilised and 'primed' ready to draw glucose out of your bloodstream.

SO

Within 30 minutes of exercise you have created a glycogen deficit in your muscles that now needs re-stocking. This will happen over the following hours - naturally lowering your blood glucose levels.
Within 30 minutes you have also mobilised GLUT4 receptors - which enable glucose to be transferred more easily into your muscle cells. This is what improves your insulin sensitivity.

These things combined should give you lower blood glucose readings in the hours to follow.

 

[andcol]

Exercise? What the heck's that? Does it mean getting up off the sofa during the next two months. if so forget it, the World Cup is starting. Come on you [insert colour here]

get an exercise bike and pedal whilst you watch

 

[Tweetypie]

I'm afraid I'm no expert in predicting health outcomes. Your data looks really very good to me, but have a chat with your doctor if you have any concerns.

With regards to DP, though you may not like it, evening exercise might actually help you keep your bloods down overnight.

Bebo321, your advice on exercise is really helping me get my head around this a bit more. When you say moderate, should this be something gentle or is high intensity better? I am having to get used to needing to do my exercise in the evening before dinner as I just don't think exercising in the morning helps the DP at all. This is a real pain as I love starting the day with some energising exercise, but it just doesn't work for me anymore (unless there's any way round it, but I can't find one other than changing to afternoon/evening exercise.

Conclusions I have come up with so far:
Eat a low carb/good protein breakfast asap or something protein as soon as you wake/get up, followed by breakfast later
Exercise in the evening
Follow a low carb lifestyle as much as you can
Be careful with alcohol (I know alcohol actually helps most people but for me, it sends me low when I drink it, but by morning my liver has recovered and dumping more sugar to compensate). Jury's still out on that one
Don't think the apple cider vinegar helps (secretly relieved about that) although I do like to include it in my salads
Having an evening snack doesn't seem to make any difference to me but it's a good excuse for a bit of cheese/few nuts

 

[Brunneria]

I've stopped with the late night nut snack (that took some careful control of the predictive text!). And it hasn't made any difference to my morning readings at all.

Mind you, I will still eat something rather than go to bed hungry. The horror!

 

[Ian DP]

Im trying really hard on the lo carb approach, rarely have breakfast, just protein for lunch at 12noon and dinner at 7pm.

I think I need to try fasting to see if the delayed protein effect is the root cause, but need to get my head into that.

Try reducing the protein a little but increase the fat (eg more double cream and butter).
Sometimes I feel protein can take 24 to 72 hrs to go through the system.... It is so slow.
I increased my protein intake a few weeks ago, saw my BG levels rose slowly over 3 days, then when I went back to my previous protein levels and it took 3 days to get my BG levels back down.... I wonder if too much protein causes a fatty liver and higher BG levels, and then when easing off it takes time to get back to normal.... Just my thinking!!


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[Bebo321]

Bebo321, your advice on exercise is really helping me get my head around this a bit more. When you say moderate, should this be something gentle or is high intensity better? I am having to get used to needing to do my exercise in the evening before dinner as I just don't think exercising in the morning helps the DP at all. This is a real pain as I love starting the day with some energising exercise, but it just doesn't work for me anymore (unless there's any way round it, but I can't find one other than changing to afternoon/evening exercise.

Conclusions I have come up with so far:
Eat a low carb/good protein breakfast asap or something protein as soon as you wake/get up, followed by breakfast later
Exercise in the evening
Follow a low carb lifestyle as much as you can
Be careful with alcohol (I know alcohol actually helps most people but for me, it sends me low when I drink it, but by morning my liver has recovered and dumping more sugar to compensate). Jury's still out on that one
Don't think the apple cider vinegar helps (secretly relieved about that) although I do like to include it in my salads
Having an evening snack doesn't seem to make any difference to me but it's a good excuse for a bit of cheese/few nuts

Glad to help if I can,
Moderate intensity exercise is fine (let's face it any exercise is great) - just elevating you heart rate a little is good enough to help you manage blood glucose levels and improve overall well being.

High intensity exercise - if you are able, involves elevating your heart rate much more and actually has far more health benefits. Unfortunately it also comes with a down side, and that is that when your heart rate is elevated your body's stress response kicks in, and a cascade of events causes your body to call on your liver to dump a load of glucose into your bloodstream. Probably an evolutionary bonus when you are trying to outrun a predator, but not so great when you are trying to improve blood glucose readings and general fitness levels!
What you will find however is that the resulting reduction in blood glucose levels and insulin sensitivity is far more evident with even a short burst of intensive exercise compared to a longer period of moderate exercise.

You ask about exercise in the morning vs evening - really it's down to what works best for you. What I would say though is that the beneficial effects of exercise (lowered blood glucose levels and greater insulin sensitivity) last much longer for intense exercise. If you could your manage blood glucose levels, then a workout that includes an element of intense exercise could actually work for you in the morning, and you would still enjoy the benefits for up to 24hrs!

Really the very best way to get the most out of exercise is to combine a fairly early burst of intense exercise with a period of moderate exercise. Give your body time to warm up - burst of energy, then easy 20mins cool down to help bring your blood glucose level back down again.
You mentioned vinegar not working for you? Try taking a drink when you have elevated blood glucose readings from exercise and it it likely to help, because it aids glycogen replenishment (that means it helps switch your body into 'fuelling' mode - taking glucose back out of the blood and into glycogen depleted muscle and liver cells)

Sounds like you've done a great job of finding out what works for you - get the exercise combination right and you'll be rocking!
Keep up the good work Tweetypie!

 

[Brunneria]

Glad to help if I can,
Moderate intensity exercise is fine (let's face it any exercise is great) - just elevating you heart rate a little is good enough to help you manage blood glucose levels and improve overall well being.

High intensity exercise - if you are able, involves elevating your heart rate much more and actually has far more health benefits. Unfortunately it also comes with a down side, and that is that when your heart rate is elevated your body's stress response kicks in, and a cascade of events causes your body to call on your liver to dump a load of glucose into your bloodstream. Probably an evolutionary bonus when you are trying to outrun a predator, but not so great when you are trying to improve blood glucose readings and general fitness levels!
What you will find however is that the resulting reduction in blood glucose levels and insulin sensitivity is far more evident with even a short burst of intensive exercise compared to a longer period of moderate exercise.

You ask about exercise in the morning vs evening - really it's down to what works best for you. What I would say though is that the beneficial effects of exercise (lowered blood glucose levels and greater insulin sensitivity) last much longer for intense exercise. If you could your manage blood glucose levels, then a workout that includes an element of intense exercise could actually work for you in the morning, and you would still enjoy the benefits for up to 24hrs!

Really the very best way to get the most out of exercise is to combine a fairly early burst of intense exercise with a period of moderate exercise. Give your body time to warm up - burst of energy, then easy 20mins cool down to help bring your blood glucose level back down again.
You mentioned vinegar not working for you? Try taking a drink when you have elevated blood glucose readings from exercise and it it likely to help, because it aids glycogen replenishment (that means it helps switch your body into 'fuelling' mode - taking glucose back out of the blood and into glycogen depleted muscle and liver cells)

Sounds like you've done a great job of finding out what works for you - get the exercise combination right and you'll be rocking!
Keep up the good work Tweetypie!

This is fascinating stuff, but where does ketosis fit into this?

It would like to run my glycogen reserves down far enough that I switch to ketosis. I don't manage it much (but I get there for a few days, now and then), but the more consistently I am in ketosis the better I feel.

Is your advice different re the replenishing of glycogen reserves, under those circumstances?