How highly would you recommend eating low carb?

[donnellysdogs]

Adele
I had colonoscopy etc done.. Negative. However I had the shapes test done as well by a brilliant consultant. Just involved swallowing 1 tablets loaded with 20 different shapes at 3 different times. Then going on set days to have xrays done to see what was left. I think out of the 60shapes, I still had 50+ still in me.
However, my problems were that Food was going so slow through me that it was causing my faeces to dry up and harden into unmovable poo's. 3 occasions I had to get ambulance out and literally was in so much pain from the impacted faeces that they literally gave me morphine on the toilet. (Thankfully, my husband had been home to phone them). After this we paid privately to see my fantastic consultant, who because I was going to pay myself for any treatment put me back through the nhs to have all followng investigations and appointments. From there my gastro chap said that unless I had been diabetic he wouldn't actually have given me the shapes test....He later on said he would knew of my concerns at the time of jelly babies and do some research on it, as he was seeing a lot more diabetics with problems. I had reckoned my bowel problems to jelly babies after he asked what had changed in my diet... The only thing was being told by diabetic nurses I had to have jelly babies as hypo stoppers. However, since Phoenis gave me such good advice regarding fat, I have increased that and the chia and ground flax seeds keep me regularly going nicely once or twice a day. After cutting out the jelly babies I was only going once a day and improved, but not to the fully functioning bowel I now have.

I started off with 1 teaspoon of each on my mixed fruit in the mornings, as your body needs to build up to two tablespoons maximum of ground flax seeds a day. I am now on 2 teaspoons of flax seeds a day now.

If I bake blueberry muffins or choc chipcake I also use ground almonds (ground again) in my recipes with coconut oil for everything. I always through in a tablespoon of flax n chia seeds into the recipes as well.

Have you had a shapes test done? As that is the starting point if you believe you have gastrparesis..my consultant thought my stomach was on its way out, he said the next stage would have been going to see the top gastro chap in London.....so I will always be grateful to Phoenix hor her advice ref fat and for me completely going to flax, chia, coconut oil, coconut flour and ground almonds.

Everytime I sit on loo I am grateful for the advice I had here.

 

[Randburg]

Like you all to look at this diet on low Carb, it is similar to Atkins but is written by a Diabetic ( I believe) Diane Kress called "The Diabetes Miracle"
Herewith a link for a review of the book.
It has defiantly worked for me, and im now on a stage were I am increasing Carbs to maintain weight
( Ive lost about 20 kg this year, and dropped Hba1c to 5.6 from over 8 this year on the diet< and I feel GREAT !!)
Link
https://dianekress.wordpress.com/2014/09/08/brand-new-study-eating-low-carb-beats-low-calorielow-fat-so-back-to-atkins-right-wrong/

Like to hear if anyone else has tried it and your comments

 

[Randburg]

A further link to the Diabetes Miracle, Confirms she has type 2
http://www.thediabetesmiracle.com/#/about/4554618380

 

[Cookiebell]

Gosh, I've not checked in for a day or so and it's all kicked off!

Seriously though, thank you for every single reply - I think we can all agree we are very passionate about out diabetes and controlling it. I think it's all about finding what works for you and appreciating that it might not work for everyone.

 

[Patch13]

I know this is probably a silly question as it has quite an obvious answer!

I love my carbs. I love pasta, rice and potatoes. In the past, I've tried to take the right amount of insulin to cover this but it's so easy to get it wrong and misjudge it - it also means I can end up taking whopping amounts of insulin!

Would you recommend I reduce my carbs? It should make my diabetes easier to manage, yes?

(I'm also doing Slimming World so although I've read a little about LCHF, I'm not keen to start eating loads of 'fattier' foods!)

I would recommend low carb (I do LCHF) as I've reduced my HbA1c from 7.8 to 5.2. But the best thing for me was stopping my blood sugar swinging from high to low a few times a day which resulted in me feeling very grumpy and very tired. I now feel better and feel more in control of my diabetes.

I TAG and this involves weighing everything I eat and doing a variety of calculations (carbs, protein and fat - I've found I need to consider the fat and bolus for it). It's a bit annoying sometimes, but definitely worth it! I've now been LCHF for about 1 year and 9 months and I don't see this changing. For me less than about 30g carbs a day works, but I know this isn't necessarily what everyone wants to do!

 

[AnnieC]

That is fine if

I think it would be difficult and unhealthy to aim for total exclusion of carbs, all you would be left with is fats and protein ( which I personally need to bolus for)

I have to say that I don't have any problems bolusing for very low carb as I do calculate the carbs in everything , vegetables included , but that's me My aim was to achieve good control, which I have , without needing a tanker load of insulin to do it. The one time in my life that I did higher carb over a significant period of time, my insulin needs tripled, and I wasn't at all happy with the way I felt on what I was eating.

It's not clear cut as people are so different, someone else may need higher insulin levels than I do for exactly the same diet, or be happy using more insulin so as to be able to eat more carbs. My personal issue is against diabetic nutritional advice to have starchy carbohydrates with every meal for quite baseless reasons ( in my opinion ) so that people who may not want or need to do eat more and suffer from poor BG levels and weight gain as a result . There should at least be options in advice given for people to find out what works for them instead of one size fits all advice.

Horses for courses, and my way suits me

To return to @Cookiebell ' s original question - yes, I do recommend it, but it takes a while to discover your personal levels and what works for YOU. Corn is carby, but doesn't spike me at all, wheat in any shape or form does It takes work, but you soon learn and adapt to something that is sustainable long term and for me it's got so that I don't even think about it apart from ferreting out new options ( thanks @Brunneria for the 9 Bars mention ! ) and adding to my enormous collection of low carb recipes that have resulted in some gorgeous grub and using foodstuffs in ways I never considered before

@AnnieC , to answer your question from my own perspective, I may be able to tolerate more carbs than I eat, but don't actually feel the need to or want to. I see nothing I would gain from that .


Signy

.My reply was actually agreeing with what Noblehead said to the OP about not going lower than she needed to after it was recommend by Zand why not try to go down to 50g as this was the proper way to do it. How can that be the proper way to do it when we are all different and some can tolerate more carbs than others

 

[Cookiebell]

Why do some people have to bolus for protein?

 

[Spiker]

Why do some people have to bolus for protein?

If you only eat very few carbs, your body starts converting protein into carbs. You then need to bolus for the protein-derived carbs inside you.

Generally only happens in nutritional ketosis. Don't worry about it too much.

Ratios vary greatly between indiduals but range from 1/4 to 2/3 of the protein eaten turning into carbs. 1/2 is usually a maximum, the highest I have seen on here, from ultra low carbers.

 

[noblehead]

Gosh, I've not checked in for a day or so and it's all kicked off!

Seriously though, thank you for every single reply - I think we can all agree we are very passionate about out diabetes and controlling it. I think it's all about finding what works for you and appreciating that it might not work for everyone.

That is the best approach, finding your own way rather than others Cookiebell., but you are right that we are all passionate and proactive in controlling our diabetes..............no matter what our dietary preference may be.

Apologies that you thread went off the rails, that is the nature of forums sometimes

 

[Cookiebell]

That is the best approach, finding your own way rather than others Cookiebell., but you are right that we are all passionate and proactive in controlling our diabetes..............no matter what our dietary preference may be.

Apologies that you thread went off the rails, that is the nature of forums sometimes

No problem, have been a member of forums for years, can't avoid the odd bunfight... Oops, I mentioned buns!

 

[Scardoc]

Well, reduce your carbs then and your HbA1cs will improve.[] I am genuinely at a loss as to why the usual suspects get so upset that people actually do recommend that approach. If you don't want to do it then fine; the buffet tables that way, but why not allow people who haven't made up their minds the chance to consider alternative approaches, especially when they are as effective and as simple as not eating starchy carbs? Dillinger

No problem with anyone low carbing whatsoever. My point was, and I quote, "it's not the be all and end all". It is not the answer to the 94% of T1's not hitting their target. In almost 7 years of having T1 I have never reduced my carbs and eat more than recommended

Really? And your evidence for this claim is... ?

My evidence is in the same place as Dillinger's evidence that lowering carbs will sort out the 94% of bad T1's.

[OMFG this makes my blood boil. There is no way 94% are non compliant with those points and most of them are marginal anyway.
This is EXACTLY what we get from HCPs every bloody checkup. Hba1c went up again? You're obviously not doing the basics. You say you are testing etc? You're obviously lying. Incredibly offensive and logically stupid. They make a circular argument that we are lying about our compliance because "if we followed the rules our Hba1c would be good". Therefore we are lying.
Meanwhile there is NO **** evidence that following their recommendations actually works ***.
It is this head in the sand arrogant non-listening circular argument shoot-the-messenger blame game that causes diabetic burnout when we become utterly frustrated banging our heads against this HCP brick wall of blind, patient-blaming ignorance.
Diabetes is a disease of carbohydrate intolerance, ***! What part of that is hard to understand????

Spiker, whilst I genuinely appreciate the quality of your rant I am at a complete and utter loss as to why you think that testing regularly, exercising and genuinely giving a **** about your diabetes are “marginal” points and don’t contribute to the 94% of non-compliant T1’s. You only need to have been on this forum for a short time to hear the personal accounts of people who have not been in control and sorted themselves out and not by low carbing!
The head in the sand I see from this kind of rant is that people are unwilling to accept that not every HCP is as described above. Not every checkup is as described above. Not everyone blames you. It is quite ironic that you are happy to accuse everyone else of playing the blame game when in actual fact you are as guilty. In almost 7 years I have had one checkup that I was not happy with and it was not because of any blame aimed at me. So, am I the magical exception to the rule? No. Not at all. It’s not all the fault of the NHS and it’s not all the fault of the individual.

Is everything the fault of carbohydrates? Well, actually, no. I rather think the “blame” lies with my autoimmune system and the damage it did to my pancreas. Irreversible damage at that but I do feel quite lucky in that I can continue to function normally via the gift of injected insulin.

Finally, and most interestingly, for six years I was happily one of the 6% compliant T1’s and ate as many carbs as I wanted and not once reduced them or contemplated it. If I had reduced my exercise and not adjusted for it, then I would become one of the 94%. If I didn’t test as regularly as I did then I would have become one of the 94%.

***! What part of that is hard to understand?

 

[Spiker]

In almost 7 years of having T1 I have never reduced my carbs and eat more than recommended

And your HBa1c is stellar, and improving? Alas neither.

It is good you have OK HBa1c using NHS methods, but that is not any kind of proof that low carb would not be more effective for you, let alone might be for others.

Sorry to rant, it was not you Scardoc, it was the echoes of all the patient-blaming HCPs in my head. :-(

 

[Scardoc]

Quiz - Scardoc or anybody - who knows how the RDA for carbs was determined, and how it is maintained and adjusted? Or the RDA for any macronutrient, for that matter.

Have to admit I had to Google it:

Expert Working Groups, created by the panel on Dietary Reference Values (DRVs), set up in 1987 by the Committee on Medical Aspects of Food Policy (COMA)[1] set DRVs for energy, protein, fats, sugars, starches, non-polysaccharides (NPS), 13 vitamins, 15 minerals and considered 18 other minerals.
This Government report still stands today as the basis for dietary recommendations in the UK and is underpinned by objective, science-based evidence which has not been superseded.

Do I get a prize?

 

[Spiker]

I said most points were marginal. Exercise is marginal for a T1, as is compliance with the NHS diet - marginal to negative. Testing and commitment are critical, I agree.

 

[Spiker]

Have to admit I had to Google it:

Expert Working Groups, created by the panel on Dietary Reference Values (DRVs), set up in 1987 by the Committee on Medical Aspects of Food Policy (COMA)[1] set DRVs for energy, protein, fats, sugars, starches, non-polysaccharides (NPS), 13 vitamins, 15 minerals and considered 18 other minerals.
This Government report still stands today as the basis for dietary recommendations in the UK and is underpinned by objective, science-based evidence which has not been superseded.

Do I get a prize?

"Nil points".

The point is the methodology. All they did was look at the nutrient composition in the typical adult male diet. They then recycle that as the RDA. It has no evidence base whatsoever.

 

[Scardoc]

I said most points were marginal. Exercise is marginal for a T1, as is compliance with the NHS diet - marginal to negative. Testing and commitment are critical, I agree.

So if testing and commitment are critical, and the NHS diet is marginal to negative, then what are the most likely reasons for 94% of T1 diabetics not meeting the target Hba1c?

And your HBa1c is stellar, and improving? Alas neither.
It is good you have OK HBa1c using NHS methods, but that is not any kind of proof that low carb would not be more effective for you, let alone might be for others.
Sorry to rant, it was not you Scardoc, it was the echoes of all the patient-blaming HCPs in my head. :-(

I am perfectly at ease with my Hba1c - it will come down when I sort out my injection site issues and can run properly again. Rant away, ranting doesn't bother me, it was the content of the rant.

 

[phoenix]

Why do some people have to bolus for protein?

Because many of us find that we need to!
There has been some work that may throw some light on this.
High protein foods elicit an insulin release in a person with a working pancreas and also with many T2 diabetes. This makes sense since one of the roles of insulin is also involved in protein metabolism . At the same time protein foods also elicit a glucagon response (how much is variable depending on the protein ). This presumably stops the insulin from causing blood glucose falling too low. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/iub.375/full (it isn't completely understood as shown in the article)

Do some of us have the glucagon response but not of course the insulin without injecting it.? I think it's a possibility. Conversion of excess protein to glucose also takes place but perhaps over a longer time frame than we normally look at.

In the 90s some researchers started work on an insulin index to try to put foods into order as to the amount of insulin produced in response to eating them. It is quite surprising just how some foods compare.(look at eggs and All Bran or beef and white pasta)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulin_index

More recently there have been 2 small studies that have used this idea

1) They developed the insulin index a bit further with more testing to increase then index. They then used the insulin index to predict the insulin released by normal, subjects after a mixed meal..
They found that
"carbohydrate, fiber, and protein content were found to be relatively poor predictors of the overall insulin response, whereas GL (the product of the available carbohydrate content and the GI of the component foods) and fat content were significant predictors, although less so than the FII" (food insulin index)
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/90/4/986.full

2) They used this revised insulin index to calculate insulin doses for people with T1. They hypothesised that dosing according to insulin demand rather than carbs alone would result in lowered post prandial levels . This proved to be the case Table 2 really shows how effective it was
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3177729/
The trouble is very few foods have been indexed so for the meantime most of us will have to continue to rely on trial and refine methods!

 

[Scardoc]

"Nil points".

The point is the methodology. All they did was look at the nutrient composition in the typical adult male diet. They then recycle that as the RDA. It has no evidence base whatsoever.

Ah now come one - the quiz was not concerning the point you were trying to make so nil points is harsh. We are both diabetics so the political scoring evident in the Eurovision Song Contest should be replicated here.

 

[donnellysdogs]

Because many of us find that we need to!
There has been some work that may throw some light on this.
High protein foods elicit an insulin release in a person with a working pancreas and also with many T2 diabetes. This makes sense since one of the roles of insulin is also involved in protein metabolism . At the same time protein foods also elicit a glucagon response (how much is variable depending on the protein ). This presumably stops the insulin from causing blood glucose falling too low. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/iub.375/full (it isn't completely understood as shown in the article)

Do some of us have the glucagon response but not of course the insulin without injecting it.? I think it's a possibility. Conversion of excess protein to glucose also takes place but perhaps over a longer time frame than we normally look at.

In the 90s some researchers started work on an insulin index to try to put foods into order as to the amount of insulin produced in response to eating them. It is quite surprising just how some foods compare.(look at eggs and All Bran or beef and white pasta)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulin_index

More recently there have been 2 small studies that have used this idea

1) They developed the insulin index a bit further with more testing to increase then index. They then used the insulin index to predict the insulin released by normal, subjects after a mixed meal..
They found that
"carbohydrate, fiber, and protein content were found to be relatively poor predictors of the overall insulin response, whereas GL (the product of the available carbohydrate content and the GI of the component foods) and fat content were significant predictors, although less so than the FII" (food insulin index)
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/90/4/986.full

2) They used this revised insulin index to calculate insulin doses for people with T1. They hypothesised that dosing according to insulin demand rather than carbs alone would result in lowered post prandial levels . This proved to be the case Table 2 really shows how effective it was
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3177729/
The trouble is very few foods have been indexed so for the meantime most of us will have to continue to rely on trial and refine methods!

Brilliant explanation as normal Phoenix. Thankyou. I also bolus for protein/fat now I've increased the qty I eat.

 

[Spiker]

Scardoc, why do you think in the entire population of diabetics, HBa1c worsens over time, regardless of tight control - testing and commitment? This is one of the most salient evidence points in the whole of diabetes management (equal in significance to "Hba1c correlates to complications", which we now take for granted).

Why is this? What is the reason? Cue deafening silence from the HCPs.

Under your hypothesis, the conclusion would be that the longer we have diabetes, the *less* committed and compliant we get. As complications arise and Hba1c deteriorates, we all take our foot off the gas and our eyes off the ball. How plausible is that?

An objective person looking in on diabetes HCPs from the outside would look at that very salient data and draw the much more reasonable inference that *the methods used are not working*.

But the HCPs behave like politicians, not scientists, and continue to blame the patients for "non-compliance" as the only explanation.