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Unexplained spikes in BS

S

samizip

Member
Messages
21
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Other
Hi there, I'm new to the forum. My mum is type 2 diabetic and I prepare all her food etc. (total disaster btw trying to cook 'carb free' over Christmas but that's another story!)
We are part of the t2t prog and I noted that after morning porridge and 2 cups milky coffee, mum's BS spikes to around 11-12mmol. If she oversleeps it spikes higher to around 13.2 (post prandial) - the nurse at our surgery said to take her medication earlier in the day to help this... which we do if she is likely to want a lie in. HOWEVER... this is what I don't understand... 2.5 hours after 2 very thin pieces of wholemeal toast this morning equating to 15g carb (each slice = v. low in sugars also) with 3 small dry fried tomatoes on top, scrape of low fat lurpak... her BS was 13.1mmol... very disheartening when we are trying to hard.

Thoughts?

Also... has anyone tried the Nutribullet? Is it any good for juicing veg (obvs not for juicing fruit, being diabetic) but if you use it for veg is it oj or does it break down latent sugars too quickly?

Thanks!
 
Further to that, I meant to add that after a 3 course dinner out the other night of calamares, steak, onion rings, chocolate tart (small slice, mousse like tart) plus shared bottle of red wine, her BS was 6.1mmol... yet tomatoes... 13.2????!
 
Hello and welcome.

What medication is your mum on?

I don't understand how you struggled with low carb over Christmas, yet your mum is having porridge, toast, onion rings, chocolate tart? How many carbs a day is she having, and is there another medical issue that requires low fat products? Or does the programme require a certain diet?

Alcohol lowers BS whilst in the system as it keeps the liver too busy to produce its own glucose.

What were her "before " readings. It is important to know these in order to see exactly what that meal has done. The higher you start, the higher you finish.
 
Welcome to the forum @samizip :)

Everyone is different with what foods they can and can't tolerate without it spiking their BG levels (I'd have the same high readings after a couple of slices of toast as your mum got even without adding the tomatoes on top).

The problem with the toast, thin spread of low fat spread and tomatoes could have been there wasn't anything to slow down the absorption of carbs (low fat spread tends to have more sugar in it than normal butter does too), whereas the full meal had plenty of fat to slow the carb absorption down (and alcohol also has an effect as Bluetit mentions above)

Other people may come along soon with further advice, but the best advice I could give you is that she eats to her meter - you are checking her levels which is a good thing and I would advise you just keep an food diary so you know what foods spike her and what don't (as I said, everyone is different) - measure before the meal and 2 hours after the first bite and you can then work out what foods to avoid or reduce the portion size of (anything that spikes more than 2mmol/ml should be avoided or have reduced portions)

It might seem like a lot of work, but after a couple of weeks you should have a good idea of what she can and can't eat
 
Bluetit1802 said:
Hello and welcome.

What medication is your mum on?

I don't understand how you struggled with low carb over Christmas, yet your mum is having porridge, toast, onion rings, chocolate tart? How many carbs a day is she having, and is there another medical issue that requires low fat products? Or does the programme require a certain diet?

Alcohol lowers BS whilst in the system as it keeps the liver too busy to produce its own glucose.

What were her "before " readings. It is important to know these in order to see exactly what that meal has done. The higher you start, the higher you finish.
Click to expand...

The meal out was our belated Christmas/New Year dinner for starters... not a regular indulgence. We are eating to the number of carbs as defined in the Xpert Diabetes course which is run through the doctor's surgery and which I attended last year. There are reasons why mum needs to have porridge which I am not inclined to explain here. I shall be alternating breakfasts when I can. I am reintroducing full fat sometimes as full fat yoghourt contains less sugar than low fat yogurt - which you prob know - in Dr David Cavan's recent book his findings concur with this.
 
phil1966 said:
Welcome to the forum @samizip :)

Everyone is different with what foods they can and can't tolerate without it spiking their BG levels (I'd have the same high readings after a couple of slices of toast as your mum got even without adding the tomatoes on top).

The problem with the toast, thin spread of low fat spread and tomatoes could have been there wasn't anything to slow down the absorption of carbs (low fat spread tends to have more sugar in it than normal butter does too), whereas the full meal had plenty of fat to slow the carb absorption down (and alcohol also has an effect as Bluetit mentions above)

Other people may come along soon with further advice, but the best advice I could give you is that she eats to her meter - you are checking her levels which is a good thing and I would advise you just keep an food diary so you know what foods spike her and what don't (as I said, everyone is different) - measure before the meal and 2 hours after the first bite and you can then work out what foods to avoid or reduce the portion size of (anything that spikes more than 2mmol/ml should be avoided or have reduced portions)

It might seem like a lot of work, but after a couple of weeks you should have a good idea of what she can and can't eat
Click to expand...


yes, it's funny - I mentioned that to the nurse at the doctor's surgery the other day - wondered if the glass of red wine countered the chocolate since I believed that alcohol depressed BS levels so maybe they even each other out. She said not necessarily though - because of the sugar in alcohol - but I am not convinced. I think your explanation of fat slowing down the absorption is more likely - even though in general we try to avoid adding unnecessary extra fat in our diet. The dinner out was our Christmas/New Year dinner not a regular occurrence - but still nice to know we can eat at least one mean out comfortably without worrying too much! Her start levels before eating in the morning can be approx 9-10.5mmol. The info you have provided is really useful, thank you so much. I shall watch out for 2mmol spikes and avoid. The spikes in porridge consumption could be lactose in milk (even though I only use 100ml semi-skim to 300ml water + small piece of banana to sweeten. 1/3 of a small nana..
 
Hi again,

I agree, fat does bind and keep spikes down, although it does prolong the rise. Alcohol also depresses the BS. Your nurse is wrong to say there is sugar in red wine. Red wine, dry whites, vodka, gin, whisky are all virtually carb and sugar free. Beer is the enemy, plus sweet wines and fortified wines like sherry. They all have sugar.

Milk is not a wise choice. We have to be very careful with it, and full milk is better than skimmed or semi skimmed as it has no added sugar and less carbs. Bananas also aren't a good choice of fruit as they are instant glucose. That's why athletes eat them during competitions. Berries are best.
 
Bluetit1802 said:
Hi again,

I agree, fat does bind and keep spikes down, although it does prolong the rise. Alcohol also depresses the BS. Your nurse is wrong to say there is sugar in red wine. Red wine, dry whites, vodka, gin, whisky are all virtually carb and sugar free. Beer is the enemy, plus sweet wines and fortified wines like sherry. They all have sugar.

Milk is not a wise choice. We have to be very careful with it, and full milk is better than skimmed or semi skimmed as it has no added sugar and less carbs. Bananas also aren't a good choice of fruit as they are instant glucose. That's why athletes eat them during competitions. Berries are best.
Click to expand...
That's the nurse again - she told us to use banana to sweeten the porridge!! I also read in carbs & Cals book about sugars in alcohol - all exactly as you say... so maybe we'll visit a different nurse in future! She also said pasta dish a day is fine... doesn't sound quite right to me unless making ones own... I tried unsweetened almond and also soya milk in porridge, but mum doesn't like it and would rather cut it out than substitute something else. We would rather eat 'clean' foods instead of trying to cook 'carb free' especially after my disasters in the kitchen... yet I'm not a bad cook usually!! Guess it's just cooking with different ingredients to the norm. But we'd rather just discover the correct/best foods for her/us to eat and eat them in all their goodness. Thanks for the tip about the milk - I'll try it for sure... i know about berries - blueberries and strawbs are the best aren't they? are cherries worse? .. I'm mashing 4 cherries in about 70g full fat yog (but lesser amount than her old quantities) and it tastes great to me! Will use strawbs in summer and blueberries. She is on metformin and gliclazide - we are wary of gliptins after the links to pancreatic cancer... Thanks so much for taking thr trouble to respond... really appreciate it. We took her levels right down at first - this was about 7months ago, then they crept up again and now the harder we try the more they seem to rise... the diet can be boring... that was the main reason odd 'treats' snuck in...
 
My 2 cents: for many people, myself included, carbs at breakfast can cause spikes, while the same amount or more of carbs at lunch or supper doesn't. I would try completely carb free breakfast meals (e.g. bacon and eggs - yum!) and see what happens. Also, coffee can cause a blood sugar rise, so maybe save that for later in the day. Also, it appears you are trying to keep her fat intake low. You may want to research low carb/high fat diets (http://www.dietdoctor.com/lchf) - a very healthy way of eating, especially for type 2 diabetics in my opinion.
 
Sadly, the NHS still promotes starchy carbs like cereals (porridge too), bread, rice, pasta, spuds, and so on, but these can be quite the wrong things for type 2's. They are the main culprits in raising BS, alongside anything made with ordinary flour such as pastry, batter, gravy, tinned soups etc. I was told by my nurse to eat jacket potatoes with baked beans. Seeing as baked beans are full of sugar, and jacket spuds are the worst type of spud (except mash), her advice would have put me in the 20's had I followed it.

Fruit and milk need to be taken with great care. Also as you say, most low fat or light foods come with added sugar and more carbs than the real thing, and this includes milk. Double cream is better than milk.

For breakfast I have a 100g full fat Greek yogurt with just a few strawberries or blueberries or raspberries thrown in. I also add some ground flaxseed for extra fibre. This lasts me over 4 hours until lunch time without the need for snacks other than a couple of cups of tea, or an occasional decaf coffee with double cream. (delicious). Strawberries are a bit thin on the ground at the moment, but I can still get fresh raspberries and blueberries in the supermarket. Frozen ones are OK but I find they spike me more than fresh. Not sure about cherries, I don't eat them and I don't think I've seen them mentioned here on the forum.

Other people have eggs for breakfast, cooked any which way, maybe with bacon, tomatoes, mushrooms. Or omelettes with cheese and mushrooms. I tend to save my bacon and eggs etc for lunch times.

If you have a browse round the forums you will find threads with lovely low carb recipes and ideas. Also, do test before she eats as well as 2 hours after her first bite. This will tell you much more than just testing afterwards. You may find that she can cope with small portions of starchy carbs, but only testing will tell you that. Keeping the rise under 2mmol/l is a good start. (ideally under 1.5mmol/l but this may be difficult.)

Please keep reading the forum, and ask any questions you like.
 
NoCrbs4Me said:
My 2 cents: for many people, myself included, carbs at breakfast can cause spikes, while the same amount or more of carbs at lunch or supper doesn't. I would try completely carb free breakfast meals (e.g. bacon and eggs - yum!) and see what happens. Also, coffee can cause a blood sugar rise, so maybe save that for later in the day. Also, it appears you are trying to keep her fat intake low. You may want to research low carb/high fat diets (http://www.dietdoctor.com/lchf) - a very healthy way of eating, especially for type 2 diabetics in my opinion.
Click to expand...
... this is great, really helpful to have yours and everyone else's tips and support. Thank you so much. Very soothing when it feels such a struggle at the moment. I worry about fatty liver - fat being stored in the liver - and mum also wants to lose a few pounds to help her levels, so... I know, yes, I've read about the high fat diet, but I am wary about how it works... ... ... I'm guessing... higher fat, better mouth feel, can't eat as much of it as you would have done low fat food, so you eat less / and therefore ingest fewer cals but feel fuller longer... but surely more fat will still be stored in the liver? Mum was told 20 years ago she had a fatty liver but no-one at that time explained the implications that it could make her more prone to become diabetic. We would have sat up and taken more notice if they had done! Multiple fruit smoothies pushed her into the diabetic range in the first place - a shame as she loves fruit... all these tips on this thread are brilliant. I can make some tweaks - but will have to be careful not to leave her feeling like a lab rat! She will be very happy that she can have the odd knob of butter... and full fat milk or cream... I will definitely read this! Thank you!
 
Bluetit1802 said:
Sadly, the NHS still promotes starchy carbs like cereals (porridge too), bread, rice, pasta, spuds, and so on, but these can be quite the wrong things for type 2's. They are the main culprits in raising BS, alongside anything made with ordinary flour such as pastry, batter, gravy, tinned soups etc. I was told by my nurse to eat jacket potatoes with baked beans. Seeing as baked beans are full of sugar, and jacket spuds are the worst type of spud (except mash), her advice would have put me in the 20's had I followed it.

Fruit and milk need to be taken with great care. Also as you say, most low fat or light foods come with added sugar and more carbs than the real thing, and this includes milk. Double cream is better than milk.

For breakfast I have a 100g full fat Greek yogurt with just a few strawberries or blueberries or raspberries thrown in. I also add some ground flaxseed for extra fibre. This lasts me over 4 hours until lunch time without the need for snacks other than a couple of cups of tea, or an occasional decaf coffee with double cream. (delicious). Strawberries are a bit thin on the ground at the moment, but I can still get fresh raspberries and blueberries in the supermarket. Frozen ones are OK but I find they spike me more than fresh. Not sure about cherries, I don't eat them and I don't think I've seen them mentioned here on the forum.

Other people have eggs for breakfast, cooked any which way, maybe with bacon, tomatoes, mushrooms. Or omelettes with cheese and mushrooms. I tend to save my bacon and eggs etc for lunch times.

If you have a browse round the forums you will find threads with lovely low carb recipes and ideas. Also, do test before she eats as well as 2 hours after her first bite. This will tell you much more than just testing afterwards. You may find that she can cope with small portions of starchy carbs, but only testing will tell you that. Keeping the rise under 2mmol/l is a good start. (ideally under 1.5mmol/l but this may be difficult.)

Please keep reading the forum, and ask any questions you like.
Click to expand...
ha ha... mum will be ecstatic about a dribble of cream here and there!!! lol... thank goodness ...that may put a smile on her face. She is very depressed at the moment because she is trying so hard to be good and when the results don't mirror her/our efforts it's really frustrating and disheartening for us both. So thank you for your support. She is hungry alot of the time which is very frustrating... just feels like we need to be cooking and constantly thinking about food. It's having the right 'snacks' in as well, later in the day... thank you again so much for your kind words and information. This is the first forum I've ever been on and it's already proving so useful :o)
 
I can see a big turnaround coming here and your mum smiling a lot more. You'll soon get the hang of it and eating will be a pleasure rather than a worrying chore. Your mum is lucky to have a caring person like yourself who is open to new ideas that go against the "experts'" advice.
 
samizip said:
... this is great, really helpful to have yours and everyone else's tips and support. Thank you so much. Very soothing when it feels such a struggle at the moment. I worry about fatty liver - fat being stored in the liver - and mum also wants to lose a few pounds to help her levels, so... I know, yes, I've read about the high fat diet, but I am wary about how it works... ... ... I'm guessing... higher fat, better mouth feel, can't eat as much of it as you would have done low fat food, so you eat less / and therefore ingest fewer cals but feel fuller longer... but surely more fat will still be stored in the liver? Mum was told 20 years ago she had a fatty liver but no-one at that time explained the implications that it could make her more prone to become diabetic. We would have sat up and taken more notice if they had done! Multiple fruit smoothies pushed her into the diabetic range in the first place - a shame as she loves fruit... all these tips on this thread are brilliant. I can make some tweaks - but will have to be careful not to leave her feeling like a lab rat! She will be very happy that she can have the odd knob of butter... and full fat milk or cream... I will definitely read this! Thank you!
Click to expand...
There is zero fat in alcohol, yet alcoholics get fatty liver disease. Dietary fat does not cause fatty liver disease. Excess carbs and fructose do. If you really want to dive into what is wrong with the official government dietary guidelines, get the book "Death by Food Pyramid" from amazon.

Strange as it may sound, a LCHF diet does not work through calorie restriction. I eat way more calories on my LCHF diet that I did when I tried to lose weight through a calorie restricted high carb low fat diet, yet have lost 45 pounds in the last year. And, as a bonus, I am not hungry all the time! No cravings between meals or waking up ravenous. Heck, I don't even snack between meals most of the time.
 
If you go low carb you lose a lot of calories. We need calories for energy, especially brain power. Some of those lost calories have to be replaced. Otherwise we lose energy, feel dreadful, and can't cope properly. There are only 2 ways to do this. Either by additional protein or additional fats (or both of course). By ditching all low fat products and eating the real thing - all dairy except milk, olive oil, (or rapeseed oil for frying), cheese, butter, cream, mayonnaise, yogurts etc.,we can recover those essential calories. The key is to find the right balance if we want to lose weight. If the body is starved of carbs and therefore glucose for energy, it starts to use fat stores for energy. Fat will be burnt. Fatty livers should improve. If the body has too many carbs, it will use some for energy, the rest is stored as fat. No fat gets burnt. We get fat and get fatty livers. This is all very simplistic and others may be able to explain it more scientifically, but it's the way I look at it.

This forum is wonderful! We are all diabetics of one sort or another, and between us have a wealth of experience in controlling our BS levels. We know what works and what doesn't work. Doctors and nurses don't have this experience, and on the whole just follow outdated dietary guidelines.

A low car diet with increased fats is enjoyable and satiating. I can see a smile on your mum's face now! Tell her she can have strawberries and cream for pudding any time!
 
DeejayR said:
I can see a big turnaround coming here and your mum smiling a lot more. You'll soon get the hang of it and eating will be a pleasure rather than a worrying chore. Your mum is lucky to have a caring person like yourself who is open to new ideas that go against the "experts'" advice.
Click to expand...
That made me smile, thank you :o) I shall read this post to her when I get home from work - it will certainly cheer her. In fact, I have actually already texted a couple of things to her already and she has sent a 'hooray' ... Mark Jenkins "The Hotel" style! ... and a little 'hope at the end of the tunnel thank goodness' message back. It is scary though... flying in the face of what might 'appear' to be 'healthier' ... so if it works it could hit the headlines at some point in the future! (I work in a newsroom ;o)) - - thankyou (all) again for your reassurance. If you're all doing it this way, I trust you and mum and I will certainly give it a good welly...
 
Hi,

The advice you've been given already is spot on!

I totally agree with the eating to the meter suggestion.
If you test before eating, then 2 hrs later, the rise shouldn't be more than 2mmol/l.
If it is, then something in the meal had too many carbs...

Oh, and you asked about the Nutribullet?
Yes, it is totally compatible with diabetes. :D
And fruit can be used too.
The trick is to combine low sugar fruit with mild tasting veg, in proportions that don't spike the blood glucose more than 2 mmol/l.
And they are delicious!

Follow the green smoothie link in my sig for a list of type2 friendly recipes. :happy:
 
NoCrbs4Me said:
There is zero fat in alcohol, yet alcoholics get fatty liver disease. Dietary fat does not cause fatty liver disease. Excess carbs and fructose do. If you really want to dive into what is wrong with the official government dietary guidelines, get the book "Death by Food Pyramid" from amazon.

Strange as it may sound, a LCHF diet does not work through calorie restriction. I eat way more calories on my LCHF diet that I did when I tried to lose weight through a calorie restricted high carb low fat diet, yet have lost 45 pounds in the last year. And, as a bonus, I am not hungry all the time! No cravings between meals or waking up ravenous. Heck, I don't even snack between meals most of the time.
Click to expand...
Oh my word, this is great news... I will have to read every one of these posts to her, word for word, tonight ... yes, fructose... been reading about that.. it's the devil... :o) thank you again - big thank you... love the Diet Doc advice about eating chicken skin!!! lol. She'll be so happy... :o) thank you for pointing me to this site, it is very easily explained and makes compulsive reading... and thank goodness looks like we might be able to follow it!
 
Brunneria said:
Hi,

The advice you've been given already is spot on!

I totally agree with the eating to the meter suggestion.
If you test before eating, then 2 hrs later, the rise shouldn't be more than 2mmol/l.
If it is, then something in the meal had too many carbs...

Oh, and you asked about the Nutribullet?
Yes, it is totally compatible with diabetes. :D
And fruit can be used too.
The trick is to combine low sugar fruit with mild tasting veg, in proportions that don't spike the blood glucose more than 2 mmol/l.
And they are delicious!

Follow the green smoothie link in my sig for a list of type2 friendly recipes. :happy:
Click to expand...
Terrific, thank you... sorry not to reply at length... i need to move into a different room now - I will definitely research this further :o) thank you soo much
 
samizip said:
... this is great, really helpful to have yours and everyone else's tips and support. Thank you so much. Very soothing when it feels such a struggle at the moment. I worry about fatty liver - fat being stored in the liver - and mum also wants to lose a few pounds to help her levels, so... I know, yes, I've read about the high fat diet, but I am wary about how it works... ... ... I'm guessing... higher fat, better mouth feel, can't eat as much of it as you would have done low fat food, so you eat less / and therefore ingest fewer cals but feel fuller longer... but surely more fat will still be stored in the liver? Mum was told 20 years ago she had a fatty liver but no-one at that time explained the implications that it could make her more prone to become diabetic. We would have sat up and taken more notice if they had done! Multiple fruit smoothies pushed her into the diabetic range in the first place - a shame as she loves fruit... all these tips on this thread are brilliant. I can make some tweaks - but will have to be careful not to leave her feeling like a lab rat! She will be very happy that she can have the odd knob of butter... and full fat milk or cream... I will definitely read this! Thank you!
Click to expand...

Hi there @samizip,

You may like to read through the threads posted by @Southport GP, who has done some research in his local practice with low carb diets. I believe @Bluetit1802 is absolutely right that on a low carb diet liver function should improve, even with a high fat diet. I have found one link to the research (below), but as I say if you take a look at previous threads, I do recall that the findings were pretty conclusive. Wishing your mum well.
http://www.diabesityinpractice.co.uk/media/content/_master/3963/files/pdf/dip3-4-131-4.pdf
 
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