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Statins & Blood Pressure

Rog

Well-Known Member
Messages
256
Location
London
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Other
Just out docs and thought I would seek some thoughts from u guys. I told her I was managing average fasting which seemed to think was ok she did mention my cholesterol was 7.4(I think )and Saudi would have to go on statins for that and gave me a prescription and said its quite normal for diabetics with high cholesterol , she also mentioned I was pre diabetic ages ago . My blood pressure was 120/80. Are the statins essential ? Incidentally I was convinced I had lost at least 3/4 stone at least as my trousers are falling of me but she said I had only lost a kilo from three weeks ago when I was first diagnosed . One other point is what does metformin actually do?

I also received a call from the diabetic nurse this morning and she said I can come of the gliclaside which was good news.
 
No one can make you take statins and that is for you to decide if you want to take them or not, I'm not sure I entirely agree with what your Dr said that its quite normal for diabetics to have high cholesterol as I've had diabetes for the last 33 years and my cholesterol is fine (and I don't take any meds for it).
 
No one can make you take statins and that is for you to decide if you want to take them or not, I'm not sure I entirely agree with what your Dr said that its quite normal for diabetics to have high cholesterol as I've had diabetes for the last 33 years and my cholesterol is fine (and I don't take any meds for it).
I am leaning towards more long walks rather than the statins , the cholesterol results are from three weeks ago when the proverbial hit the fan, it looks like the cholesterol is the next battle?
 
I am leaning towards more long walks rather than the statins , the cholesterol results are from three weeks ago when the proverbial hit the fan, it looks like the cholesterol is the next battle?


Exercise is good for improving cholesterol levels but unsure if this alone would reduce high cholesterol, if your unsure what to do then ask for a second opinion from another Dr.
 
Hi. As far as I'm aware diabetics have the same range of cholesterol level as others. Arguments about the value of statins rage out there and it appears to be true that the pharma companies manipulated the data in the 60s/70s and convinced the establishment that we all needed these (profitable) drugs. The body needs cholesterol for reairs etc and the important thing is not the total which is largely irrelevant but the HDL/LDL ratio. Ask the GP for these numbers and with a low-carb diet the ratio should come good. Metformin has three actions, the main one being to help reduce insulin resistance in muscle cells. It also reduces the liver's output of glucose and, I think, enables the bowel to slightly reduce it's absorption of glucose. All of these actions have a much smaller effect than the low-carb diet.
 
Hi. As far as I'm aware diabetics have the same range of cholesterol level as others. Arguments about the value of statins rage out there and it appears to be true that the pharma companies manipulated the data in the 60s/70s and convinced the establishment that we all needed these (profitable) drugs. The body needs cholesterol for reairs etc and the important thing is not the total which is largely irrelevant but the HDL/LDL ratio. Ask the GP for these numbers and with a low-carb diet the ratio should come good. Metformin has three actions, the main one being to help reduce insulin resistance in muscle cells. It also reduces the liver's output of glucose and, I think, enables the bowel to slightly reduce it's absorption of glucose. All of these actions have a much smaller effect than the low-carb diet.
Thanks for your comments Daibell, hope to get of the metformin next. I still can't get over only a one kilo weight loss , I'll get in touch with the nurse tomorrow and get the HDL/LDL , I feel the low carb will sort all, and I have a gut feeling my cholesterol like my blood sugar has improved from three weeks ago , which are the results she was referring to.
 
Hi. As far as I'm aware diabetics have the same range of cholesterol level as others. Arguments about the value of statins rage out there and it appears to be true that the pharma companies manipulated the data in the 60s/70s and convinced the establishment that we all needed these (profitable) drugs. The body needs cholesterol for reairs etc and the important thing is not the total which is largely irrelevant but the HDL/LDL ratio. Ask the GP for these numbers and with a low-carb diet the ratio should come good. Metformin has three actions, the main one being to help reduce insulin resistance in muscle cells. It also reduces the liver's output of glucose and, I think, enables the bowel to slightly reduce it's absorption of glucose. All of these actions have a much smaller effect than the low-carb diet.
Daibell could I ask u something , in my low card I have bacon and Greek yogurts and things like that, are these and things like it not contradictory to reducing cholestral?
 
Rog, I saw the other thread you started today, so had a look at your other posts to understand better where you are in this process. We're similar in age and both new to low carb. I started the LCHF diet in mid-February. And I also was pressured to start a statin, so made a serious effort to learn what I could about diabetes, cholesterol, and statins. This is a long post, but my hope is that at least some of it will be helpful to you. :)

When I read this study published in 2012, "Progression of Vascular Calcification Is Increased With Statin Use in the Veterans Affairs Diabetes Trial (VADT)", I was able to make my decision. I think you'll find this overview of the study of interest...

Abstract
OBJECTIVE To determine the effect of statin use on progression of vascular calcification in type 2 diabetes (T2DM).

RESEARCH DESIGN AND METHODS Progression of coronary artery calcification (CAC) and abdominal aortic artery calcification (AAC) was assessed according to the frequency of statin use in 197 participants with T2DM.

RESULTS After adjustment for baseline CAC and other confounders, progression of CAC was significantly higher in more frequent statin users than in less frequent users (mean ± SE, 8.2 ± 0.5 mm3 vs. 4.2 ± 1.1 mm3; P < 0.01). AAC progression was in general not significantly increased with more frequent statin use; in a subgroup of participants initially not receiving statins, however, progression of both CAC and AAC was significantly increased in frequent statin users.

CONCLUSIONS More frequent statin use is associated with accelerated CAC in T2DM patients with advanced atherosclerosis.

The role of statins in prevention of cardiovascular disease (CVD) in type 2 diabetes (T2DM) is well established. Despite the wide use of statins, however, calcific atherosclerosis is accelerated in T2DM and is associated with increased risk of CVD morbidity and mortality in this population (
1). The purpose of the current study was to determine the effect of statin use on progression of vascular calcification in T2DM participants with advanced atherosclerosis.

Here's the link so you can print and read the entire study... http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/35/11/2390.full

I also went onto the Amazon website in the UK to find a book that explains how atherosclerosis is caused by inflammation, not cholesterol, and that is also supportive of the LCHF diet. This one from 2012 was written by an American cardiologist, and has been a great help to me. Of the six books on heart disease I've surveyed over the last couple of months, this one has been the most helpful...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/..._rd_t=36701&pf_rd_p=577048427&pf_rd_i=desktop

The Great Cholesterol Myth: Why Lowering Your Cholesterol Won't Prevent Heart Disease: and the Statin Free Plan That Will is a very good book that is written in easily understood language that includes references. It explains the role of diabetes in heart disease, also how inflammation, not saturated and monounsaturated fats or cholesterol causes heart disease. It also explains what the different lab tests are and provides specific recommendations on diet, nutritional supplements, and medications. I encourage you to read it one chapter at a time, pencil in hand, so you can underline key points and write notes in the margin.

And here's a book written by a UK author that has chapters that I think will help you interpret the results of your lipid panel - (perhaps you could check it out from the library)...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cut-Your-Ch...tmm_hrd_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1433996846&sr=1-4

I think, if you read these two books, you'll be able to make a more informed decision regarding your diet and whether or not to take a statin.

My experience with the LCHF diet thus far has been positive. I was able to reduce my blood glucose levels within a month. My A1C was 9.9% in February, 5.5% in May. My cholesterol, triglycerides, HDL, and LDL remained unchanged between February and May, but my HDL moved into the normal range, so there was a slight improvement. My hsCRP-Cardio result was bad - (I'm at "high risk" for heart disease, meaning I likely have atherosclerosis of the arteries).

So I'm continuing on the LCHF diet, testing my blood glucose 4 to 8 times a day, and taking a few thoughtfully chosen, high quality nutritional supplements: a multi-vitamin & mineral supplement (that includes all the B vitamins and 2,000 IU vitamin D3), vitamin C, magnesium citrate, potassium citrate, CoQ10, cod liver oil (for the vitamin A), vitamin K2 (MK-7), fish oil, Meriva, and an "eye protection" formulation. I'm taking many of these supplements specifically to improve my heart and artery health.

After reading, thinking about, and practicing the LCHF diet for four months, these are the conclusions I've come to...

I need to have carbs, fat, and protein at every meal.

Carbs (and protein) are where I'm getting the most nutrition: vitamins, minerals, other nutrients, and in the case of the carbs, fiber too. Fiber helps with digestion, and also with maintaining a healthy gut flora. Studies show that "higher consumption of fruit and veg is associated with a reduced risk of mortality from just about every cause, including heart disease and stroke."... http://drsarahbrewer.com/2015/04/15/why-5-a-day-and-not-more/

Fats provide the calories I need (now that I've eliminated sugar, grains, starchy vegetables, and legumes from my diet; eliminating these carbs will bring both my blood glucose and my triglyceride levels down). They also provide needed fatty acids, take away feelings of hunger, and improve the particle size of my LDL and HDL cholesterol.

Protein is where I get more vitamins, minerals, and other nutrients. And it helps me maintain my muscle mass.

Carbs are non-starchy vegetables including green, leafy salads with a vinaigrette dressing - (2 tablespoons of extra virgin olive oil and 1 tablespoon of red wine vinegar). Fats are primarily saturated and monounsaturated fats - (butter, extra virgin olive oil, unrefined coconut oil, and avocado). Protein is primarily meat, poultry, fish, eggs, a variety of raw nuts, and hard cheeses.

There needs to be a balance of these macronutrients. I believe it's important to eat whole, plant based foods throughout the day with the fat and protein. I say all this because I worry that those new to the LCHF diet become overly focused on the fat and protein, and as a result may not be getting a enough vegetables (and berries) in a variety of colors each week.

@Rog from what I've read, your blood glucose levels are excellent and you're losing weight. That's great!

I know the cholesterol is a bit of a worry right now, but I think after you get a print out of your lab results and you read these two books, you'll have a better understanding and appreciation of the progress you're making. :)

It might also help to get your cholesterol checked every 3 - 6 months for now so you can make adjustments to your diet if your cholesterol begins trending up rather than down. But that's a bit of a tricky business because cholesterol levels go up while you're actively losing weight on the LCHF diet, so it's better to have your cholesterol checked when you're maintaining your weight, not losing. In fact, your recent lipid panel may have been influenced by your recent weight loss. :)
 
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Hi Winnie

Can't tell you how much I appreciated your comments , info ( books ordered) and thoughts. I was just getting my head round the diabetes and cholestral issue turns up, on top of that I'm handed a prescription for statins . And you say that weight loss for diabetes doesn't alway assist good cholestral levels. I'm going to have a word with the diabetic nurse at the clinic and get my exact HDL/LDL readings and post them later as I just want to get to a place of understanding and exceptence . I'm still very confused about eating fats , yogurts , milk , cheese , I'm not sure if I can eat lamb or bacon for example now. Strange days.
 
@Rog oops, weight loss is good for heart health, for lots of reasons. It's just that when you're actively losing the weight, there's more cholesterol circulating, that's all. After your weight stabilizes for a while, there's less cholesterol circulating, then you can get tested again. For now, do continue with the weight loss. :)

Heart disease is caused by inflammation, not cholesterol. By that I mean, if there's no inflammation in the arteries, the cholesterol can't get into the wall of the artery. :)

Might be helpful to go to http://www.dietdoctor.com/ and watch the doctor's interviews with LCHF experts from around the world and read his blog posts and articles. You don't need to be a member. Most of the website is still free.
 
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The fats and proteins you're eating are good for you, so long as you're not eating high amounts of carbohydrates (by that I mean refined grains and sugars). Milk may be a problem though because it's high in naturally occurring sugar. Everything else you mentioned is fine. As you learn more about how the LCHF diet works, you'll feel more comfortable. :)
 
Here's a link to a free book about statins. I found it to be so good I printed out a copy

https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/486704

Free download available in various formats including PDF and Kindle

You asked for advice, but I'm afraid I have no medical training at all and am therefore not qualified to tell you what to do. I can only say that if my own total cholesterol was the same was yours I would not take statins. I would suggest you read all you can about the subject and then make your own informed decision.

Good luck :)
 
Hi @Rog, the important thing to be aware of is that cholesterol is almost as complicated as Diabetes. Some people will see increases from eating extra saturated fats and others won't. Generally over the population though, sat fats typically don't directly cause an increase in cholesterol as the mechanism by which cholesterol enters the bloodstream is that it is generated by the liver.

I'm another that doesn't have particularly high Cholesterol (but was originally put on statins anyway because "it was good for me as a Diabetic"). I've since taken myself off.

Statins are not related to lowering blood pressure!
 
Rog, I saw the other thread you started today, so had a look at your other posts to understand better where you are in this process. We're similar in age and both new to low carb. I started the LCHF diet in mid-February. And I also was pressured to start a statin, so made a serious effort to learn what I could about diabetes, cholesterol, and statins. This is a long post, but my hope is that at least some of it will be helpful to you. :)

When I read this study published in 2012, "Progression of Vascular Calcification Is Increased With Statin Use in the Veterans Affairs Diabetes Trial (VADT)", I was able to make my decision. I think you'll find this overview of the study of interest...

Abstract
OBJECTIVE To determine the effect of statin use on progression of vascular calcification in type 2 diabetes (T2DM).

RESEARCH DESIGN AND METHODS Progression of coronary artery calcification (CAC) and abdominal aortic artery calcification (AAC) was assessed according to the frequency of statin use in 197 participants with T2DM.

RESULTS After adjustment for baseline CAC and other confounders, progression of CAC was significantly higher in more frequent statin users than in less frequent users (mean ± SE, 8.2 ± 0.5 mm3 vs. 4.2 ± 1.1 mm3; P < 0.01). AAC progression was in general not significantly increased with more frequent statin use; in a subgroup of participants initially not receiving statins, however, progression of both CAC and AAC was significantly increased in frequent statin users.

CONCLUSIONS More frequent statin use is associated with accelerated CAC in T2DM patients with advanced atherosclerosis.

The role of statins in prevention of cardiovascular disease (CVD) in type 2 diabetes (T2DM) is well established. Despite the wide use of statins, however, calcific atherosclerosis is accelerated in T2DM and is associated with increased risk of CVD morbidity and mortality in this population (
1). The purpose of the current study was to determine the effect of statin use on progression of vascular calcification in T2DM participants with advanced atherosclerosis.

Here's the link so you can print and read the entire study... http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/35/11/2390.full

I also went onto the Amazon website in the UK to find a book that explains how atherosclerosis is caused by inflammation, not cholesterol, and that is also supportive of the LCHF diet. This one from 2012 was written by an American cardiologist, and has been a great help to me. Of the six books on heart disease I've surveyed over the last couple of months, this one has been the most helpful...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/..._rd_t=36701&pf_rd_p=577048427&pf_rd_i=desktop

The Great Cholesterol Myth: Why Lowering Your Cholesterol Won't Prevent Heart Disease: and the Statin Free Plan That Will is a very good book that is written in easily understood language that includes references. It explains the role of diabetes in heart disease, also how inflammation, not saturated and monounsaturated fats or cholesterol causes heart disease. It also explains what the different lab tests are and provides specific recommendations on diet, nutritional supplements, and medications. I encourage you to read it one chapter at a time, pencil in hand, so you can underline key points and write notes in the margin.

And here's a book written by a UK author that has chapters that I think will help you interpret the results of your lipid panel - (perhaps you could check it out from the library)...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cut-Your-Ch...tmm_hrd_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1433996846&sr=1-4

I think, if you read these two books, you'll be able to make a more informed decision regarding your diet and whether or not to take a statin.

My experience with the LCHF diet thus far has been positive. I was able to reduce my blood glucose levels within a month. My A1C was 9.9% in February, 5.5% in May. My cholesterol, triglycerides, HDL, and LDL remained unchanged between February and May, but my HDL moved into the normal range, so there was a slight improvement. My hsCRP-Cardio result was bad - (I'm at "high risk" for heart disease, meaning I likely have atherosclerosis of the arteries).

So I'm continuing on the LCHF diet, testing my blood glucose 4 to 8 times a day, and taking a few thoughtfully chosen, high quality nutritional supplements: a multi-vitamin & mineral supplement (that includes all the B vitamins and 2,000 IU vitamin D3), vitamin C, magnesium citrate, potassium citrate, CoQ10, cod liver oil (for the vitamin A), vitamin K2 (MK-7), fish oil, Meriva, and an "eye protection" formulation. I'm taking many of these supplements specifically to improve my heart and artery health.

After reading, thinking about, and practicing the LCHF diet for four months, these are the conclusions I've come to...

I need to have carbs, fat, and protein at every meal.

Carbs (and protein) are where I'm getting the most nutrition: vitamins, minerals, other nutrients, and in the case of the carbs, fiber too. Fiber helps with digestion, and also with maintaining a healthy gut flora. Studies show that "higher consumption of fruit and veg is associated with a reduced risk of mortality from just about every cause, including heart disease and stroke."... http://drsarahbrewer.com/2015/04/15/why-5-a-day-and-not-more/

Fats provide the calories I need (now that I've eliminated sugar, grains, starchy vegetables, and legumes from my diet; eliminating these carbs will bring both my blood glucose and my triglyceride levels down). They also provide needed fatty acids, take away feelings of hunger, and improve the particle size of my LDL and HDL cholesterol.

Protein is where I get more vitamins, minerals, and other nutrients. And it helps me maintain my muscle mass.

Carbs are non-starchy vegetables including green, leafy salads with a vinaigrette dressing - (2 tablespoons of extra virgin olive oil and 1 tablespoon of red wine vinegar). Fats are primarily saturated and monounsaturated fats - (butter, extra virgin olive oil, unrefined coconut oil, and avocado). Protein is primarily meat, poultry, fish, eggs, a variety of raw nuts, and hard cheeses.

There needs to be a balance of these macronutrients. I believe it's important to eat whole, plant based foods throughout the day with the fat and protein. I say all this because I worry that those new to the LCHF diet become overly focused on the fat and protein, and as a result may not be getting a enough vegetables (and berries) in a variety of colors each week.

@Rog from what I've read, your blood glucose levels are excellent and you're losing weight. That's great!

I know the cholesterol is a bit of a worry right now, but I think after you get a print out of your lab results and you read these two books, you'll have a better understanding and appreciation of the progress you're making. :)

It might also help to get your cholesterol checked every 3 - 6 months for now so you can make adjustments to your diet if your cholesterol begins trending up rather than down. But that's a bit of a tricky business because cholesterol levels go up while you're actively losing weight on the LCHF diet, so it's better to have your cholesterol checked when you're maintaining your weight, not losing. In fact, your recent lipid panel may have been influenced by your recent weight loss. :)
Hello again Winnie.
Got the audio of
The Great Cholesterol Myth:
Amazing so far and contradictory to the thinking we are led to believe. I spoke to the Diabetic nurse at the clinic today and told her my dilemma about the statins , she gave me the clinics position and said diabetics of middle age are high risk but she said however if I want to give the diet option a try so be it. What part of the book does the author talk about diabetic related to cholestral as I havnt got their yet , the author did say that the only people he would advise to take statins are middle aged men who have had heart attacks or actual cardivasculour problems so far.
The no camp for statins are winning at this point.
 
@Rog it's chapter 4, Sugar: The Real Demon in the Diet. I listen to audio recordings of books too. If after listening to the book, you like it, I encourage you to get a copy of the book so you can use the table of contents and index to re-review specific topics, which I find myself doing a lot! :)
 
@Rog it's chapter 4, Sugar: The Real Demon in the Diet. I listen to audio recordings of books too. If after listening to the book, you like it, I encourage you to get a copy of the book so you can use the table of contents and index to re-review specific topics, which I find myself doing a lot! :)
Thx Winnie.
 
The first 13 minutes of the documentary "Statin Nation":


It's worth a watch.
Nocrabs -- saying no to statins and doing the low carb high fat diet is becoming a nil brainer. I'm down to one 500 metformin a day now as my fasting BS is 4.9, man this has been some three weeks.
 
@Rog what I neglected to explain to you last night is that there are two opposing views of what causes heart disease: 1) the "cholesterol hypothesis" that cholesterol is the primary cause of heart disease and 2) a more current, science-based view that inflammation, not cholesterol causes heart disease.

The other book I recommended to you was written by someone who still believes in the cholesterol hypothesis, so all her advice will contradict what Dr. Sinatra's book teaches. The reason I referred you to her book was so you could get a good overview of the tests, lipid profile information used in the UK.

Sinatra's book, The Great Cholesterol Myth, will help you understand why inflammation is the problem, but he will also tell you that high glucose levels in the blood injures the arteries...which leads to inflammation...which leads to plaque build up in the artery walls.

Here's where it gets tricky. When evaluating our heart disease risk, the number of LDL particles circulating in our blood doesn't tell us much. What we need to know is what is the size of those LDL particles.

Why? Because the smaller LDL particles, if I'm understanding Sinatra correctly, are damaged due to oxidation for example, and through a process I don't completely understand, are more likely to end up in the artery wall, whereas the larger LDL particles are less likely to end up there, where we don't want it.

This is why, it's more important to know your LDL particle size, not just your LDL particle number. But here's the catch. Health insurance may not pay to measure the particle number and size of your LDL and HDL, so we may have to pay for that test out of pocket.

If you have a typical lipid profile that's a little high, you're probably okay, and over time, your lipid profile should improve on the LCHF diet. But I like what Tim2000s said in his above post...

"Some people will see increases from eating extra saturated fats and others won't. Generally over the population though, sat fats typically don't directly cause an increase in cholesterol as the mechanism by which cholesterol enters the bloodstream is that it is generated by the liver."

We're all so individual. That's why, after your weight loss has stabilized for a few months, it's important to have another lipid profile to see if you're responding to the increase in healthy saturated and monounsaturated fats in a healthy or unhealthy way. We want triglycerides to go down, LDL to eventually go down, and HDL to go up on the LCHF diet. Your next lipid profile, again, after your weight loss has stabilized for a few months, in 3 to 12 months will give you more information. :)
 
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@Rog I also want to say that I'm confident that the free online book that zand linked to above would be an excellent book for you to read next. The author is one of the most well regarded experts on the true causes of heart disease. I haven't read it or his other two books yet, but I will, and I really like Dr. Uffe Ravnskov's newsletters...

http://www.ravnskov.nu/uffe.htm
 
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