Is this normal . . . .?

[ButtterflyLady]

Cheese is one of my weaknesses so I have been eating full fat mature cheddar as a snack with a couple of oatcakes. I use the SD Codefree to test my blood sugar.

I'd not heard of "carb flu" Maybe that's what I have? But as I don't really understand what this means I'm not sure

I just want to feel better as I feel pretty awful in the mornings

Do you have a headache when you first wake up? Do you refreshed from sleep or not?

 

[tigerlily72]

May I ask what was "completely wrong" about it? Ausasha mentioned low glycemic index foods which are certainly considered to be healthier carbohydrate options than high glycemic index foods.

I don't expect everyone to agree and that's part of how we all learn. However, perhaps next time you can explain your opinion rather than accuse someone of being "completely wrong."

I have a couple of GI Diet books (by Rick Gallop). I know sweet potato is an "amber" food. I'm trying to avoid the foods and products in the "red" group and mostly eat those that are "green". I know there will be differences in opinion and what works for one person may not be suitable for another. Although I feel I have a good knowledge - thanks to this great website, I still have lots to learn.

 

[tigerlily72]

Do you have a headache when you first wake up? Do you refreshed from sleep or not?

No, I usually feel knackered in the mornings. I still feel like I've not had enough sleep and am usually up (to the toilet) at least once during the night.

I usually feel very nauseous with a dry throat and sick first thing. It's often the case that I physically retch and vomit and am sometimes sick

 

[tigerlily72]

Why would anyone bring up exercise in this thread, when the OP specifically raised questions about starting low carbing? Let them get over their 'carb flu' before hitting them with exercise programmes.

Exercise advice and enthusiastic support for activity is all over this forum It even has its own board, and numerous threads, but since T2 management is approx 80% diet, and the remaining 20% exercise and drugs, that is a long way down the list for a newbie low carber.

I'm too knackered for any strenous exercise at the moment! But, I regularly walk to and from work which is about a 25 min walk depending on how fast I walk and part of it is uphill (on the way home).

I know I do need to keep active and factor this in but a few steps at a time eh?

 

[ButtterflyLady]

No, I usually feel knackered in the mornings. I still feel like I've not had enough sleep and am usually up (to the toilet) at least once during the night.

I usually feel very nauseous with a dry throat and sick first thing. It's often the case that I physically retch and vomit and am sometimes sick

You might want to ask your doctor about obstructive sleep apnoea. I'm not saying you are likely to have it, as I don't know much about you, but some of the symptoms you have are OSA symptoms... but they can also be caused by other disorders.

Unrefreshing sleep is a sign of a sleep disorder and there are several possible culprits. An overnight sleep study in a sleep lab/clinic can show which sleep disorders, if any, you might have. GPs can refer people to a lab/clinic if they believe they may have a sleep disorder.

Needing to get up to the toilet during the night can be a symptom of high BGs, or OSA, or another disorder. Normally, our kidneys slow down urine production so our bladder only fills slowly during sleep. But if there is something wrong with these signals, the kidneys keep producing the same amount of urine as when we are awake.

Waking with a dry throat is a sign of mouth breathing. Nose breathing is the optimal way to breathe because structures in the nose heat and humidify the air. Mouth breathing (often due to nasal congestion) lets cool dry air in, dries up saliva, and also can encourage the tongue to fall back and partially cover the opening of the throat, especially when we are lying on our back. Getting a referral to an ear, nose and throat (ENT) specialist can uncover if and why there is a nasal blockage and can often treat it.

Nausea could be due to nocturnal gastric reflux, which can co-occur with OSA. The pressure on the chest muscles from the breathing problems can weaken the sphincter at the top of the stomach, causing reflux. Propping up the head of the bed can help, along with treating the OSA if you have that. Or the nausea could be caused by medication side effects or another disorder.

Lots to think about... I know you have a lot going on, but maybe you could write down the symptoms you have over a typical 24 hour period, and that will give your GP some ideas for further investigations.

 

[TorqPenderloin]

My carb flu lasted a couple of days, and it was no worse than hypo hell!
I soon got used to living without many carbs!

You are assuming that everyone counts the littlest item of food they eat, at which does anybody enter or exit ketosis, I have no idea. It probably as with most things blood glucose wise, everyone differs!

If you over think something it can become obsessive.
I don't have time, but I do have energy and I don't want to waste it wondering whether I'm in or out of ketosis, my body tells me!
I do have a good awareness of what happening to my body wether hypos or ketosis!
There are some here on the forum will give you precise answers, but I couldn't even if I wanted to.
I want to live my life!

To some it may seem obsessive. To me, it's just explaining the science behind why a LCHF diet is effective. Also, us type 1 diabetics do need to count the littlest item (carbs) we eat in order to calculate our insulin doses.

I do agree that not everyone has the time or ability to maintain a diet that requires all but completely cutting out carbs. That's why diets like the Atkins (eating less than 20g carbs) have very high failure rates.

I'm sharing my before/after transformation picture with this post in hopes it may inspire others. I changed my nutrition approach a few times, but I was finishing a month long Keto diet (LCHF) in the after picture.

 

[tim2000s]

The point that @TorqPenderloin is making is that if you restrict carbs, but not enough to get fully into ketosis or stay there, you end up in a no-man's land where you can feel constantly exhausted.

The descriptions in this topic of @tigerlily72's diet suggests that she is not in constant and full ketosis (as @nosher8355 and @Brunneria are) and as a result could be experiencing the downside of an LCHF diet, namely that if you don't do it full bore, you run the risk of feeling constantly tired as your body is not adapted to run on fat and you aren't quite eating enough carbs to provide the energy you need. The OPs posts suggest that she is still eating bread and sweet potatoes so it is highly likely that this awkward half way situation is prevailing.

As @CatLadyNZ mentions, there could also be other factors involved in the way that @tigerlily72 is feeling.

Unfortunately on the diet side, it is a case of either going properly low carb and forcing yourself into ketosis, and this means cutting out bread, sweet potatoes, various pulses, certain veg, etc, or eating enough of the right carbs to not affect blood sugar but match the energy needs of the body. There isn't really a halfway house.

 

[tigerlily72]

You might want to ask your doctor about obstructive sleep apnoea. I'm not saying you are likely to have it, as I don't know much about you, but some of the symptoms you have are OSA symptoms... but they can also be caused by other disorders.

Unrefreshing sleep is a sign of a sleep disorder and there are several possible culprits. An overnight sleep study in a sleep lab/clinic can show which sleep disorders, if any, you might have. GPs can refer people to a lab/clinic if they believe they may have a sleep disorder.

Needing to get up to the toilet during the night can be a symptom of high BGs, or OSA, or another disorder. Normally, our kidneys slow down urine production so our bladder only fills slowly during sleep. But if there is something wrong with these signals, the kidneys keep producing the same amount of urine as when we are awake.

Waking with a dry throat is a sign of mouth breathing. Nose breathing is the optimal way to breathe because structures in the nose heat and humidify the air. Mouth breathing (often due to nasal congestion) lets cool dry air in, dries up saliva, and also can encourage the tongue to fall back and partially cover the opening of the throat, especially when we are lying on our back. Getting a referral to an ear, nose and throat (ENT) specialist can uncover if and why there is a nasal blockage and can often treat it.

Nausea could be due to nocturnal gastric reflux, which can co-occur with OSA. The pressure on the chest muscles from the breathing problems can weaken the sphincter at the top of the stomach, causing reflux. Propping up the head of the bed can help, along with treating the OSA if you have that. Or the nausea could be caused by medication side effects or another disorder.

Lots to think about... I know you have a lot going on, but maybe you could write down the symptoms you have over a typical 24 hour period, and that will give your GP some ideas for further investigations.

I think I could be in denial and have Sleep Apnoea. But, I'm scared to mention it to the Dr. My husband says I snore badly and can snore practically all night - totally embarrassed now He says I also stop breathing at times and it scares him as he's waiting for me to take a breath.

I don't really know much about sleep apnoea but I believe these are symptoms? I've also heard that people with the condition have to sleep with a mask or machine strapped to their face to help their airways open and close properly??

I have suffered on and off with depression/stress/anxiety and now the diabetes. I really don't want to be diagnosed with anything else

Maybe I need to mention it to the diabetic nurse? Will it sort itself if I can lose the weight or does it need medical intervention? I know you're not a Dr but you're very knowledgeable and I'm grateful for your sound advice and opinions

 

[tigerlily72]

I just want to thank all that have replied to me with their views and suggestions. Looks like I've started a bit of a debate!

Also, I don't think I've got this carbing thing right. To be clear, I haven't gone ultra low carb but I am trying to adopt the principles of the GI Diet. I really don't know how many carbs I was consuming before but to give you an idea - if I had pasta for an evening meal I would practically eat a dinner plate full!

Lets say I was consuming 300g+ a day. Maybe I've cut it by 2/3rds, I'm not really sure as I don't actually add up everything I eat. I do look at labels to try to buy things with a lower carb and sugar value.

This is so much harder than I thought it would be. I desperately want to try to control with diet rather than go straight onto medication. It's starting to make me feel low and a bit emotional

 

[Brunneria]

The point that @TorqPenderloin is making is that if you restrict carbs, but not enough to get fully into ketosis or stay there, you end up in a no-man's land where you can feel constantly exhausted.

The descriptions in this topic of @tigerlily72's diet suggests that she is not in constant and full ketosis (as @nosher8355 and @Brunneria are) and as a result could be experiencing the downside of an LCHF diet, namely that if you don't do it full bore, you run the risk of feeling constantly tired as your body is not adapted to run on fat and you aren't quite eating enough carbs to provide the energy you need. The OPs posts suggest that she is still eating bread and sweet potatoes so it is highly likely that this awkward half way situation is prevailing.

As @CatLadyNZ mentions, there could also be other factors involved in the way that @tigerlily72 is feeling.

Unfortunately on the diet side, it is a case of either going properly low carb and forcing yourself into ketosis, and this means cutting out bread, sweet potatoes, various pulses, certain veg, etc, or eating enough of the right carbs to not affect blood sugar but match the energy needs of the body. There isn't really a halfway house.

But low carb is a sliding scale. It does not automatically require ketosis. And there are many things - including simply not eating enough - that can give the symptoms discussed.

The 'half way house' can be totally avoided by eating enough to fuel the body, whether that food is fat, carb or protein. And 'carb flu' is often less to do with 'switching fuels' and more to do with fluids, electrolytes and eating enough.

Many people on the forum run along very happily on carbs higher than 50g, and lower than (say) 150g, with no sign of ketosis.

One of the reasons why so many of us avoid throwing numbers and calculations at newbies, is that my-low-carb is not your-low-carb, and when trying to help someone newly diagnosed, when they feel physically and emotionally cr*p, throwing numbers at them can be VERY intimidating. Sorry @tigerlily72 - not assuming that last statement applies to you, I was generalising.

 

[Lamont D]

I think I could be in denial and have Sleep Apnoea. But, I'm scared to mention it to the Dr. My husband says I snore badly and can snore practically all night - totally embarrassed now He says I also stop breathing at times and it scares him as he's waiting for me to take a breath.

I don't really know much about sleep apnoea but I believe these are symptoms? I've also heard that people with the condition have to sleep with a mask or machine strapped to their face to help their airways open and close properly??

I have suffered on and off with depression/stress/anxiety and now the diabetes. I really don't want to be diagnosed with anything else

Maybe I need to mention it to the diabetic nurse? Will it sort itself if I can lose the weight or does it need medical intervention? I know you're not a Dr but you're very knowledgeable and I'm grateful for your sound advice and opinions

Maybe it is sleep apnoea, maybe it is your high and low blood sugars fluctuating.
It is common to have disrupted sleep with blood glucose disorders.

I know I suffered with that, had the tests and getting control didn't solve it completely but I do have a better sleep pattern now!

One of my many GPs through the years prescribed tablets for a year but it didn't resolve the underlying problem which was my RH and my fluctuating blood glucose levels.

 

[ButtterflyLady]

I think I could be in denial and have Sleep Apnoea. But, I'm scared to mention it to the Dr. My husband says I snore badly and can snore practically all night - totally embarrassed now He says I also stop breathing at times and it scares him as he's waiting for me to take a breath.

I don't really know much about sleep apnoea but I believe these are symptoms? I've also heard that people with the condition have to sleep with a mask or machine strapped to their face to help their airways open and close properly??

I have suffered on and off with depression/stress/anxiety and now the diabetes. I really don't want to be diagnosed with anything else

Maybe I need to mention it to the diabetic nurse? Will it sort itself if I can lose the weight or does it need medical intervention? I know you're not a Dr but you're very knowledgeable and I'm grateful for your sound advice and opinions

Aw, there's no need to be embarrassed about snoring, lots of people do it and I think everyone does it sometimes. The fact that your husband has heard you stop breathing at times and that it scares him is a strong indicator you may have OSA. If nothing else, getting it treated would help him worry less, and the reduction in sound will help him sleep better.

OSA is a potentially serious disorder because it increases the risk of stroke and heart disease, and it tends to make weight issues, diabetes and depression worse. It can also lead to traffic accidents because people are so sleepy during the day. If you ask for a sleep study, then you can get the facts about what is really going on and decide whether to tackle it by losing weight or using a machine and mask (CPAP therapy). There are degrees of OSA and you would need to know if it was mild, moderate or severe in your case. A sleep study will also check for other sleep disorders.

Some people are able to lose weight and the OSA goes away. Others may need surgery to remove tissue at the back of the nose, and that fixes it. Most people need to use CPAP, however. It is not as bad as it sounds. I've been using it for several years with no major issues. I feel a hundred times better in terms of tiredness and I know my risk of OSA complications is under control now. Others in the house don't have to hear my snoring, either, lol.

 

[TorqPenderloin]

I just want to thank all that have replied to me with their views and suggestions. Looks like I've started a bit of a debate!

Also, I don't think I've got this carbing thing right. To be clear, I haven't gone ultra low carb but I am trying to adopt the principles of the GI Diet. I really don't know how many carbs I was consuming before but to give you an idea - if I had pasta for an evening meal I would practically eat a dinner plate full!

Lets say I was consuming 300g+ a day. Maybe I've cut it by 2/3rds, I'm not really sure as I don't actually add up everything I eat. I do look at labels to try to buy things with a lower carb and sugar value.

This is so much harder than I thought it would be. I desperately want to try to control with diet rather than go straight onto medication. It's starting to make me feel low and a bit emotional

We want to help so badly we're actually fighting about it

And don't worry about perfecting your carbs just yet. No one gets it right the first time and it takes a lot of trial and error. I was diagnosed with type one 4 weeks ago and I'm still trying to figure out my insulin. Last week I had a 7-day average blood sugar of 7.4 mmol/l, but had a 2.4 and a 14 reading within the same hour (gave myself too much insulin and then overcorrected eating way too many carbs). I've got a lot to say, but I'm here to learn just as much anyone else.

If you don't like reading labels (and who does?) one thing that helps me is reading when I'm at the grocery store. I try to find the brand with the lowest carbs. Eventually, you'll start to remember that Food 1 has X carbs and Food 2 has Y carbs.

If you've cut 200g of carbs/day that's exceptional! That equates to about 800 calories which (as mentioned) may be another possible reason that you're feeling tired (although I doubt it).

I know it's frustrating at first but keep your head up. You have every reason to be proud of the progress you've already made: significant reduciton in cards, reduction in high glycemic foods, you've lost 7 lbs (.5 stone), you mentioned you're trying to increase your physical activity, but most importantly it sounds like you're addressing the disease and ready to make the necessary adjustments to combat it. Awesome job. Keep it up!

 

[tigerlily72]

Aw, there's no need to be embarrassed about snoring, lots of people do it and I think everyone does it sometimes. The fact that your husband has heard you stop breathing at times and that it scares him is a strong indicator you may have OSA. If nothing else, getting it treated would help him worry less, and the reduction in sound will help him sleep better.

OSA is a potentially serious disorder because it increases the risk of stroke and heart disease, and it tends to make weight issues, diabetes and depression worse. It can also lead to traffic accidents because people are so sleepy during the day. If you ask for a sleep study, then you can get the facts about what is really going on and decide whether to tackle it by losing weight or using a machine and mask (CPAP therapy). There are degrees of OSA and you would need to know if it was mild, moderate or severe in your case. A sleep study will also check for other sleep disorders.

Some people are able to lose weight and the OSA goes away. Others may need surgery to remove tissue at the back of the nose, and that fixes it. Most people need to use CPAP, however. It is not as bad as it sounds. I've been using it for several years with no major issues. I feel a hundred times better in terms of tiredness and I know my risk of OSA complications is under control now. Others in the house don't have to hear my snoring, either, lol.

Thank you again and for sharing your personal experience That's what I love about this site - people sharing their experiences, knowledge and opinions to help others. And, it comes from those who have experience of dealing with not just diabetes but other health issues.

 

[ButtterflyLady]

Thank you again and for sharing your personal experience That's what I love about this site - people sharing their experiences, knowledge and opinions to help others. And, it comes from those who have experience of dealing with not just diabetes but other health issues.

Yes I value that too... for each disorder there are usually at least a handful of people here with experience of it, who are only too happy to share.

When I was diagnosed with OSA, I had had it for years and it was having a huge impact on my health - and my safety, because I fell asleep at the wheel and was lucky no one was injured or killed. If my GP had been more observant and proactive, I could have gotten better much sooner. So that is why I talk about OSA so much. It can cause T2 as well as hypertension, depression and a range of other things.

And it is easy to miss, because we don't know what goes on while we sleep... all we know is that we feel tired and unwell during the day, and if someone is around to notice our breathing during sleep, that can help with getting a problem picked up. I was single, so while my housemates knew I snored, no one knew I stopped breathing during sleep until I had a sleep study. Listening to someone stop breathing then gasp for air is really scary... the longest interval I had on my sleep study was 30 seconds without breathing. I tried doing that while awake and the longest I could last was 15 seconds.

 

[ButtterflyLady]

I just wanted to add that if you do have OSA, it's not like having another health condition as such, because it's basically a mechanical problem rather than a disease or something that changes the way your body cells work, like diabetes does.

When we sleep, all our muscles relax, including the ones that support the airway and the tongue. So, the tongue drops back and covers the airway, plus the walls of the airway are softer and don't stay open... a bit like a flexible garden hose with no water in it. People who don't have OSA have an airway that stays open on its own. CPAP therapy (mask and machine) is just a way of getting slightly pressurised air into the airway to hold it open, like if you turned on the tap and filled the garden hose. Normally people don't even notice they are wearing the mask, once you get used to it. It's actually more comfortable than having no mask, because you can relax knowing you are going to breathe easier.

I hope that info helps. It wouldn't be like finding out you have another disease as it's a simple mechanical problem that is fairly easily fixed. And, weight loss might mean you wouldn't need CPAP anyway.