Type 2- I not, never have been Obese!

Ka-Mon

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Childish people who start childish arguments. KNOW-ALLS who claim they can help people to control their Diabetes without knowing their medical back ground.

BLINKERED people who think their way is the ONLY way.

Eating LOADS of SAT FATS. I HATE SAT FATS.

Did I mention I dislike KNOW-ALLS.

People desperate for attention and recognition.

People who get angry when they don't receive anything in return for helping others.
Wasn't Atkins diet revised after his death? If I remember rightly, the fat content was reduced and carbs were increased or somethimg like that?
 

noblehead

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Ka-Mon said:
Wasn't Atkins diet revised after his death? If I remember rightly, the fat content was reduced and carbs were increased or somethimg like that?

That's quite correct Ka-Mon, due to the bad publicity about the health implications of the Atkins diet and its demise in followers, a new Atkins was introduced incorporating previously banned foods (carbs) and a reduction in fats.

Nigel
 

RoseRodent

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We rarely hear about the genetic element, why is type 2 so staggeringly much higher in Germany than many parts of Europe? I feel that type 2 is something you are born with a predisposition to have, and it will get you earlier or later depending on other various factors, but it will get you. Some people can eat a lot and be still genuinely gut-wrenchingly, achingly hungry. Others find some foods make them feel really hypo, and they don't stop feeling faint until they have consumed a bunch of sugar. I'd love to get a blood insulin test not just a blood glucose, because it's quite possible to have high insulin (thus your body sending out the hypo alert saying eat, eat, eat) and normal or high glucose also. This metabolic dysfunction is the precursor to type 2, but is just deemed to be greedy fat person can't stop stuffing her face. If I don't eat sweets I can't stand up! And no, the effect doesn't wear off if I eat a glorious organic diet for months, there is no cold turkey then it's all rosy again, I just have to stay in bed till I start eating again. I am a type 2 in the making and I don't think I can fix that, I just wait and see when it comes for me.

But back to where I started, factors outside our control are also part of this rise, and of course the rise in testing is responsible for much of the rise. Pre-NHS people were not tested for diabetes, they died often before it became an issue, they got infected feet and gangrene and amputations before ever finding out they were diabetic. Of course we have more diagnosed diabetes now if we go out there looking for diabetes!

I wonder whether perhaps we should just stop demonising fat people and fatness rather than people feel they are tarred with the fat brush to have type 2? I have been fat and fit and thin and unhealthy. I passed an army combat fitness test when I was 12 stone, but the doctors were on at me to get skinnier. When I was 7 stone with an eating disorder did anyone ever weigh me and say gosh you are terribly underweight? No, but a couple of pounds over and you are hit with the big diet stick. A "healthy diet"? Most of the things on that list would kill me, I have allergies and severe bowel problems. No diet can make me healthy unless it can perform corrective surgery while passing through. I can lose weight by eating the same amount of chocolate but cutting out food, which I have done in the past when I had to get thin for some treatment. Not healthy, you understand, just thin. Apparently I was too fat for the drugs to work. The clinic said they were going to start to "forget" to weigh me as I was too thin and still over the BMI, and the drugs worked straight out at the lowest doses.

I can't recall the rules of all the different websites I go to about posting external links but try searching "ilustrated BMI" or "BMI project" and "BMI slideshow" for some illuminating stuff about what "obesity" looks like.
 

oobuc5

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i was going on 15 stone [5,11] then lost 2 stone in 2 months ,yes T2 now i weigh 165 lbs,i get pi***d of with people saying diabetics are fat , and its there fault i would like to put on some weight, as for the bbc and a program about canadian diabetics yanks are the most obesse on the planet thats why they drive buicks they could not get into the bean cans we drive,in a study in the late 60,s it was found that on average
they had 14lbs of undigested food in their systems[nice]:
 

HpprKM

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Never did eat lots of unhealthy fatty food either, it seems it is genetic, it is time that this is a recognised factor for some T2s, no matter what they do if it is in their genes all they can do is lead as healthy lifestyle as possible and hope for the best :!:
 

HpprKM

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oobuc5 said:
i was going on 15 stone [5,11] then lost 2 stone in 2 months ,yes T2 now i weigh 165 lbs,i get pi***d of with people saying diabetics are fat , and its there fault i would like to put on some weight, as for the bbc and a program about canadian diabetics yanks are the most obesse on the planet thats why they drive buicks they could not get into the bean cans we drive,in a study in the late 60,s it was found that on average
they had 14lbs of undigested food in their systems[nice]:

Sorry, just checked in on this post that I made sometime ago, and simply have to make a point here, that is Canadians are not 'Yanks'. there is nothing more upsetting to a Canadian than to say they are a American, whilst I grant you that there is a serious obesity problem in Canada, I have to say that Canadians, are much more conservative than Americans as a whole. What qualifies to say this? My father was a Canadian, and I and my children all have Canadian Citizenship, I have lived there for the best part of 10 years, my sons their wives, and two of my grandchildren are living there (and they are Canadian). I spend most of my Summer holidays there, and just have to let everyone know that Canadians are no more American than the English are French! In the Independence war America separated from UK, Canada did not and my ancestors fought in that war for our King and Country.
 

pearl

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Like a lot of people on this soapbox, I am sick and tired of the "blame " culture surrounding the causes of Type 2. I have been diabetic for the best part of twenty years. I have to thank my Clough ancestors for the condition caused by a gene passed on from them. You might run in this case, but it gets you in the end.
 

HpprKM

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Pearl, well said :!:
 

HpprKM

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Oh, and whilst we are on the subject not all largely built people are obese because of their eating habits, my daughter has Hashimoto's thyroidism and has always led a healthy life style and eaten healthily, despite this she spent a lot of time and troubled hours trying to loose weight, a GP told her that if she would keep raiding the fridge then she could not expect to be a mini instead of a Rolls Royce, she has never been a fridge raider, how insulting was that! Size can also be genetic, all the females on her father's side are tall and fairly large framed, as were my maternal grandmother and some of my cousins, I was just lucky in that I take after my mother who was always petite and small framed. :)
 

robertconroy

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Association does not necessarily mean cause. Every time I see an accident on the highway, there are police cars. Does this mean police cars cause accidents? Of course not. Does being overweight cause type 2 diabetes? Maybe not. Maybe type 2 diabetes causes obesity.

Most type 2 diabetics have high insulin levels. In fact, I can look at a person and pretty much tell if they have insulin resistance - if a man has a waist over 40 inches or a woman has a waist over 34.5 inches, they probably both have insulin resistance. You see, insulin is the fat storage hormone. If it's high your weight goes up, if it's low your weight goes down.

That's why eating low glycemic is so important for type 2s. It lowers your glucose, but more important, it lowers your insulin. High insulin levels cause insulin resistance, type 2 diabetes, metabolic synrome, heart attack, cancer, most all the major diseases. Now studies have shown over 50% of all heat attacks are in people with high insulin levels. But typically, doctors don't check insulin, which could indicate going down the diabetes path 8 - 10 years before it actually develops.

How do they treat type 2 diabetes? They give you drugs that raise your insulin levels. I know, it doesn't make much sense to me either. We call this grabbing at straws. It's always best to treat a nutritional disease with nutrition, rather than treating the symptoms with drugs that mask the symptoms, but don't address the cause.
 

HpprKM

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When I questioned metformin I was told it helps my pancreas, stops it from working so hard to keep my insulin levels up.
 

phoenix

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Robert,
High insulin levels cause fat storage or perhaps excess fat storage/ circulating fatty acids and /or other disorders of adipose tissue result in insulin resistance and consequently higher insulin levels.
If you have read G Taubes and got one view of the issue, you might also like to read papers by Keith Frayn, Unger,Boden.Ralph de Fronzo or even the blogger Carbsane, who has attempted to 'translate' some of the key papers.
 

viviennem

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I have been dieting since the age of 15, 46 years now. I put more weight on following the recommended 'low-fat, high carb' diet than with anything else, though 18 months on hormone treatment for suspected endometriosis was what put me over 18 stone.

I managed to reach 20 stone while eating 'healthily' and walking 25 miles a week with the dog!

In fairness I was probably eating too much at meals, and of course shoving down all that wholemeal pasta, brown rice and baked potato turned out to be totally the wrong thing to do, particularly in combination with the nasty low-fat spreads. I turned to low-carbing via Atkins in desperation, thinking it might kill me but what the heck, I was going to die soon anyway if I went on as I was. It was successful.

Fell back into bad carb habits for a variety of reasons, and compounded the problem with too much red wine :oops: Back on Atkins now though, and losing, though slowly.

Ironically enough, the diet we were all advised to follow when I was 15 involved cutting out bread and potatoes, cakes, biscuits etc, eating lean protein and plenty of veg, and taking exercise :roll:

Atkins did not die of a heart attack; he died after hitting his head in a fall in New York, and his body was bloated because of all the drugs/fluids they'd pumped into him. He revised his own original diet 1970s diet in the 'New Diet Revolution', published in 2002, and it states quite clearly in there that fat should be cut back as carbohydrate consumption is gradually increased. I quote from page 22:

"Am I advocating a high-fat diet? Not in the long run. As you increase the percentage of carbohydrates, while advancing through the different phases of Atkins, the percentage and actual amount of fat you consume will diminish. However, as long as you are at the lower end of carbohydrate consumption, higher-fat consumption poses no threat to your health."

He then gives a reference to: Phinney, S D, et al "The Human Metabolic Response to Chronic Ketosis without Caloric Restriction: Physical and Biochemical Adaptations." Metabolism, 32(8), 1983, pp. 757-768.

Unfortunately, many people do not read the book from cover to cover. I did, and checked a lot of the references as far as I could, because as I say - I thought it might kill me. It hasn't yet!

In my case, my surname (which I am not going to give you!) means 'a fat person' :roll: What hope is there for me? :lol:

Viv 8)
 

borofergie

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robertconroy said:
How do they treat type 2 diabetes? They give you drugs that raise your insulin levels. I know, it doesn't make much sense to me either. We call this grabbing at straws. It's always best to treat a nutritional disease with nutrition, rather than treating the symptoms with drugs that mask the symptoms, but don't address the cause.

That's not entirely true though is it? Most Type2s are on Metformin, which increases your sensitivity to your existing insulin, it doesn't increase the production of it. By increasing your sensitivity, your blood sugar levels drop, meaning that you should produce less insulin. So in most cases, they give you drugs that reduce your insulin level, not raise it.
 

Ka-Mon

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350
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Childish people who start childish arguments. KNOW-ALLS who claim they can help people to control their Diabetes without knowing their medical back ground.

BLINKERED people who think their way is the ONLY way.

Eating LOADS of SAT FATS. I HATE SAT FATS.

Did I mention I dislike KNOW-ALLS.

People desperate for attention and recognition.

People who get angry when they don't receive anything in return for helping others.
viviennem said:
Atkins did not die of a heart attack; he died after hitting his head in a fall in New York, and his body was bloated because of all the drugs/fluids they'd pumped into him.

His death certificate floating on the internet contradicts what was officilaly said to be the cause of his death. If it's true and the reason why he fell and knocked his head was really a heart attack then in reality his own diet was the reason for his death. It's one of those debates that could go on forever without the people finding out the real truth.


He revised his own original diet 1970s diet in the 'New Diet Revolution', published in 2002,

Why was it revised? Was it maybe that after his first heart attack in that same year he realised that he got it wrong and hence revised it?


and it states quite clearly in there that fat should be cut back as carbohydrate consumption is gradually increased. I quote from page 22:

Again, his original diet before his revised one was to eat loads of fat and almost no carbs at the initial phase/s, in the revised version he allowed more carbs and less fat.

"Am I advocating a high-fat diet? Not in the long run. As you increase the percentage of carbohydrates, while advancing through the different phases of Atkins, the percentage and actual amount of fat you consume will diminish. However, as long as you are at the lower end of carbohydrate consumption, higher-fat consumption poses no threat to your health."


So, after his initial high fat low carbs diet, which I believe he recommended as a long term diet but changed to "Not in the long run" (in other words "ok only for a short time") in 2002. His new revised version was to lower the fat consumption as one increased the carbs, which means that according to Atkins, those of us who eat a moderate amount of carbs (or "high carbs" as low carbers call it) and low fat are doing the right thing in the long run.

If I remember correctly, Atkins allowed about 20-30 carbs a day after reaching optimal weight, what is the new revised value for carbs?
 

viviennem

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Ka-mon,

Atkins allows 20g of carb in the first, induction phase, which he suggests you follow for 2 weeks. I stayed on it for 18 months, under medical supervision, with no ill effects whatsoever, good bg and BP levels and an excellent lipid profile. My reasons for lapsing were to do with me, not the diet.

After Induction you increase your carb intake by 5g weekly, until you find the point at which you start putting weight on again. This varies for each individual - in my case it's at about 70g of carb. Some people can go much higher, and why shouldn't they, even people with diabetes, if their bg levels are under control?

The 'New Diabetes Revolution' revision of his diet was published to make the diet easier to do - ie, by giving a list of foods to eat in Induction, and then lists of foods by weight/carbs to add in as you go through the next phases. The original 1970s book was very difficult - I tried it in my 20s and couldn't do it.

The diet itself involves eating a good variety of natural, unprocessed food, organic if possible but not essential. It avoids high-carb foods in the fruit and veg category, but does include plenty of lower-carb vegetables and fruit, particularly in the later stages.

His death certificate floating on the internet contradicts what was officilaly said to be the cause of his death. If it's true and the reason why he fell and knocked his head was really a heart attack then in reality his own diet was the reason for his death. It's one of those debates that could go on forever without the people finding out the real truth.

As far as I am aware (and as you say, the debate could go on forever - who knows the exact truth?) he lived for a number of days after the fall, but never recovered consciousness. Did a heart attack cause the fall, or was it the icy pavement? Or did the shock of the fall cause the heart attack? I wasn't there, I don't know. Anyone can die of a heart attack, even when on life support - myocardial infarction is a frequent 'cause of death' on a death certificate, even for people with no history of heart disease and excellent lipid levels. I had a vegetarian acquaintance who never ate saturated fat (as far as I know - certainly no animal products) who died of a heart attack at the age of 38. Female. Not all heart attacks are caused by dietary fat.

The problem around Atkins death is that all his supporters will try to put a good 'spin' on it, while all the antis and vested interests - and there are many - will try to blame it on the diet. It's not impossible to fake a death certificate, particularly digitally!

I may very well die of a heart attack. Many people with 'good' levels of cholesterol die of heart attacks. But I shan't blame it on my diet. And I give everyone full permission to write "I told you so" on my tombstone - but you'll have to pay for the stone! :lol:

Viv 8)

PS did you know that lard (good old pig fat!) contains 45% monounsaturated fat; 39% saturated; and 16% polyunsaturated fat. 35% of the saturated fat is stearic acid, which metabolises to oleic acid, which increase HDL without affecting LDL levels. Source: USA National Nutritional Database. Sorry I can't give you the exact link.
 

viviennem

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Sorry, HpprKM, seem to have gone off the subject a bit!

I apologise to all you lovely slim Type 2s - I'm afraid I'm one of the ones who adds to the stereotype - though I would love to know how much of my obesity is due to impaired glucose intolerance and too much insulin in my system!

Viv 8)
 

HpprKM

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viviennem said:
Sorry, HpprKM, seem to have gone off the subject a bit!

I apologise to all you lovely slim Type 2s - I'm afraid I'm one of the ones who adds to the stereotype - though I would love to know how much of my obesity is due to impaired glucose intolerance and too much insulin in my system!

Viv 8)

Hi Viv, don't worry about going off subject, as a topic it is open to all views, I also understand that many T2s do suffer with weight issues. I fully understand this as my daughter who has a thyroid condition battles with the problem on an ongoing basis and I always feel guilty when complaining about losing weight and my clothes not fitting any more (I think the metformin has a lot to do with this). I am sorry I cannot answer your question, maybe someone else can - also might be worth posting as a topic in its own right in order to attract more answers.

Wishing you well.