Saturated fats and type 2

[lindisfel]

That's why keto is I believe more effective as the Virta trials have shown... they can take longterm Type 2's and get them off most of their meds(even long term insulin users) with a ketogenic diet. No pre-selection of trial subjects as happened in the DiRECT study

Hi Bulkbiker,
I wouldn't insult nutritional ketosis/ultra low carb by comparing it to the Newcastle diet.
Nutritional Keto is for life, Newcastle cannot ever be a diet of any permanence.
It is just a starvation version of the failed three macronutrient diet of PHE.
D.

 

[Krystyna23040]

That's why keto is I believe more effective as the Virta trials have shown... they can take longterm Type 2's and get them off most of their meds(even long term insulin users) with a ketogenic diet. No pre-selection of trial subjects as happened in the DiRECT study

I absolutely agree. My DN thinks I probably had undiagnosed diabetes for over 15 years before diagnosis in 2012. Straight on insulin on diagnosis (Novarapid and Lantus). On insulin until I discovered keto. Now no insulin or any meds - just keto.

OK - my H b1Ac is not brilliant at between 40 and 44 but pretty miraculous when you think that it was 125 on diagnosis. The high carb low fat diet kept blood sugars high and I struggled to lower my HB1aC into the 50s even with lots of injected insulin.

On high carb, low fat and insulin - retinopathy and neuropathy were just getting worse and worse. On Keto they have reversed - which is pretty amazing.

 

[bulkbiker]

my H b1Ac is not brilliant at between 40 and 44 but pretty miraculous when you think that it was 125 on diagnosis.

That sounds pretty miraculous to me.. well done.. you are right your results are amazing and will probably get even better over time.

 

[Tannith]

Hi Bulkbiker,
I wouldn't insult nutritional ketosis/ultra low carb by comparing it to the Newcastle diet.
Nutritional Keto is for life, Newcastle cannot ever be a diet of any permanence.
It is just a starvation version of the failed three macronutrient diet of PHE.
D.

Newcastle was never intended to be "a diet of any permanence". It's a one off of about 8 to 16 weeks to get the weight off the pancreas and liver. After that, following a cautious return to normal eating , you just eat two thirds of what you ate before when you were overeating.

 

[Guzzler]

Two thirds of the macronutrients that one used to eat. If I ate 2/3s of the carbs I used to eat I would still be in trouble.

 

[Krystyna23040]

Two thirds of the macronutrients that one used to eat. If I ate 2/3s of the carbs I used to eat I would still be in trouble.

I am afraid that I would also be in serious trouble if I are 2/3d of the carbs that I used to eat. Actually not just seriously in trouble - I would be in very very serious trouble.

 

[lucylocket61]

Newcastle was never intended to be "a diet of any permanence". It's a one off of about 8 to 16 weeks to get the weight off the pancreas and liver. After that, following a cautious return to normal eating , you just eat two thirds of what you ate before when you were overeating.

1) I wasnt overeating, my weight was drug induced

2) 2/3 of my previous carb intake would send by blood sugars skyrocketing.

3) what about the slim type 2's? or those who have it as a result of other medical conditions?

 

[Krystyna23040]

That sounds pretty miraculous to me.. well done.. you are right your results are amazing and will probably get even better over time.

Thank you - I very much hope that my results will get better in time as I continue with Keto. I don't mind if this is a slow process. I read somewhere that Jason Fung has said it may take some people years to repair the damage to their bodies.

 

[bulkbiker]

Thank you - I very much hope that my results will get better in time as I continue with Keto. I don't mind if this is a slow process. I read somewhere that Jason Fung has said it may take some people years to repair the damage to their bodies.

to go from insulin and meds down to nothing is pretty amazing in itself.. I'm sure you will continue to make progress.

 

[kokhongw]

That's why keto is I believe more effective as the Virta trials have shown... they can take longterm Type 2's and get them off most of their meds(even long term insulin users) with a ketogenic diet. No pre-selection of trial subjects as happened in the DiRECT study

That really depends on the metrics used to measure success.

To date, only ND has been shown to restore 1st phase insulin response. ie normal OGTT response curve.

Keto/LCHF are able to achieve low HbA1c, but few ever seems achieve normal OGTT response even with the few days of carb loading.

I suspect a combination of fasting, carbs cycling and circadian rhythm restoration activities may do the trick...unfortunately both camps are stuck within their own model. Dr Phinney and Volek are against fasting due to lean mass loss etc. and Dr Taylor's team seems fixated with his magic 800 calorie model.

Hopefully someone will come along and combine all these into their own protocol.

 

[bulkbiker]

That really depends on the metrics used to measure success.

To date, only ND has been shown to restore 1st phase insulin response. ie normal OGTT response curve.

Keto/LCHF are able to achieve low HbA1c, but few ever seems achieve normal OGTT response even with the few days of carb loading.

I suspect a combination of fasting, carbs cycling and circadian rhythm restoration activities may do the trick...unfortunately both camps are stuck within their own model. Dr Phinney and Volek are against fasting due to lean mass loss etc. and Dr Taylor's team seems fixated with his magic 800 calorie model.

Hopefully someone will come along and combine all these into their own protocol.

We just need Dr Fung to publish his findings on his 8,000 patients..I restored my OGTT response by the way.. without carbing up achieved "normal" results.
Edit to add I think fasting and keto will prove to be the strongest pairing..

 

[first14808]

I suspect a combination of fasting, carbs cycling and circadian rhythm restoration activities may do the trick...unfortunately both camps are stuck within their own model. Dr Phinney and Volek are against fasting due to lean mass loss etc. and Dr Taylor's team seems fixated with his magic 800 calorie model.

I think there's also a risk of generalisation, oversimplification, and possibly sales projections for ND shakes.

As I understand it, Dr Taylor's ND trials have had a narrow focus and a specific aim, ie rapid (and safe) weight/fat loss that avoids bariatric surgery and all it's risks. Once ND's complete, then there's still the challenge of a T2 friendly/safe diet and lifestyle. And for that, we're not just a bunch of standard deviant's livers.

So I agree that it'll be a combination.. Which then means finding the best combination that works for an individual. In my case, I'm an LCHF convert. I cut the carbs, lost a lot of weight initially, but then it slowed.. Which from reading information here, I expected. I also noticed some loss in lean mass (according to my scales), but adjusted my diet to include more protein and more exercise. As a result, I've dropped from 100kg at diagnosis nearly a year ago, to 81kg this morning.. And managed to keep 66kg of muscle per my Tanita's reckoning. Then from a Mk1 eyeball in the mirror, that may have involved some redistribution from doing some simple strength, resistance training and more walking.

My diet's been mostly based on standard advice, ie around 1g/kg protein to avoid lean mass loss. If my scales show that dropping, I add a bit more. Everything else has been plain'ol LCHF, and I also think it's something that would fit an updated 'Eat Well' guide.

 

[lindisfel]

We had a lone rat a few years ago, hoovering up the spilled bird food. He was a loner. Loners are those that for some reason have been turfed out of the social group. They have no mates or friends. We enjoyed watching him for months. He was fascinating. No way could I ever have harmed him. He had it tough enough as it was. He disappeared eventually.

Hi Blue tit,
We have an old cottage and part of it has stone walls and we get rodents in from time to time. If you ever get a rat coming into the house, as we did once, it is necessary to kill them.
Mind you I find rat traps very hairy to set.

Wood mice and pymy shrews come into the house as well as other mice and voles. We hate killing such beautiful creatures that need our protection.
On a number of occasions we have had female hares making a "form" and leaving their leverets in the garden and then seeing them coming to feed and wash them each day.
When the leveret grows and starts feeding on dandelions etc it is rare privilege to observe them through the windows.
We are surrounded by trees and fields and have no immediate neighbours.
regards
D.

 

[lindisfel]

Hi Tannith,
It wouldn't work for me, I have Reactive Hypoglyceamia and carbs are poison to me.
I have not had a hypo for over three years since I cut out refined carbs.
Anyway my diabetes/RH is not caused by overeating, it is caused by adrenal disease.
My beta cells don't work not because of fat but because I have 20x the normal amount of aldosterone which causes my body to retain sodium and lose potassium so the cell signalling breaks down, in the pancreas and multiple other organs.
D.

Newcastle was never intended to be "a diet of any permanence". It's a one off of about 8 to 16 weeks to get the weight off the pancreas and liver. After that, following a cautious return to normal eating , you just eat two thirds of what you ate before when you were overeating.

 

[Tannith]

Another Apple news thread. https://apple.news/ALtadcYLWTBiK6BqXlEBNjQ

This one states saturated fats are the direct cause of type 2 diabetes. This would suggest that as we lower our insulin with low carb we raise it with saturated fats (whilst improving our heart health, or not, depending on what we trust about fats and that issue).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15297079 This one says saturated fats cause insulin resistance and is a research article not written by a vegan. (Though why everyone on here seems to think that everything vegans write must be automatically wrong I don't know.) "Epidemiological evidence and intervention studies clearly show that in humans saturated fat significantly worsens insulin-resistance, while monounsaturated and polyunsaturated fatty acids improve it through modifications in the composition of cell membranes which reflect at least in part dietary fat composition" LCHF diets could just as easily be monounsaturated fats or omega 3s. The body doesn't actually need a single molecule of saturated fat so what's the point in eating any?

 

[Guzzler]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15297079 This one says saturated fats cause insulin resistance and is a research article not written by a vegan. (Though why everyone on here seems to think that everything vegans write must be automatically wrong I don't know.) "Epidemiological evidence and intervention studies clearly show that in humans saturated fat significantly worsens insulin-resistance, while monounsaturated and polyunsaturated fatty acids improve it through modifications in the composition of cell membranes which reflect at least in part dietary fat composition" LCHF diets could just as easily be monounsaturated fats or omega 3s. The body doesn't actually need a single molecule of saturated fat so what's the point in eating any?

From the abstract: "Strongly and positively associated" which is basically associational.
"Overweight" and "obesity" negates the 20% of those diagnosed with Type 2 Diabetes who show normal and lower BMI. "Epidemiological studies" I'm not much of a fan, tbh.


The abstract does not make clear if the PUFAS are natural or man made.

 

[bulkbiker]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15297079 This one says saturated fats cause insulin resistance and is a research article not written by a vegan. (Though why everyone on here seems to think that everything vegans write must be automatically wrong I don't know.) "Epidemiological evidence and intervention studies clearly show that in humans saturated fat significantly worsens insulin-resistance, while monounsaturated and polyunsaturated fatty acids improve it through modifications in the composition of cell membranes which reflect at least in part dietary fat composition" LCHF diets could just as easily be monounsaturated fats or omega 3s. The body doesn't actually need a single molecule of saturated fat so what's the point in eating any?

But but but.. the studies that underly your paper were all on people who were still eating a significant portion (45-50%) of their diet as carbohydrate. We all know that high fat and high carb intake is extremely unhealthy so it looks like the paper is reporting "eat a diet likely to induce Type 2 diabetes and hey presto your insulin resistance will go up"... well no s**t Sherlock.. That is exactly what I would expect to happen.

I'm also afraid to let you know that there are zero foods that are composed of only monounsaturated and polyunsaturated fats. All foods with fat are composed of varying elements of the three fat types so it is in fact impossible to eat no saturated fat unless of course you wish to die. As we all know there are essential fats and protein but no essential carbs.

That as well as the very valid points that @Guzzler has made above I'm afraid means I'll carry on with my sat fat (and mono and poly) based diet thanks.

I hope however that your own personal regime is still performing as you hoped.

Edit to add here's a piece from Dr Zoe Harcombe explaining fats.
http://www.zoeharcombe.com/2018/01/saturated-fat/

 

[lucylocket61]

Though why everyone on here seems to think that everything vegans write must be automatically wrong I don't know.

divisive and untrue.

we only disagree with vegans if they are actually..............you know............wrong.

one of my closest friends is a vegan, she makes a lot of sense on a lot of things. But even vegans (shock horror) are sometimes wrong. And when that wrongness affects others, like in the reports and 'research' we have talked about on here, we need to point that out.

for balance, we are just as quick to do the same for non-vegans : )

 

[lucylocket61]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15297079 This one says saturated fats cause insulin resistance and is a research article not written by a vegan. (Though why everyone on here seems to think that everything vegans write must be automatically wrong I don't know.) "Epidemiological evidence and intervention studies clearly show that in humans saturated fat significantly worsens insulin-resistance, while monounsaturated and polyunsaturated fatty acids improve it through modifications in the composition of cell membranes which reflect at least in part dietary fat composition" LCHF diets could just as easily be monounsaturated fats or omega 3s. The body doesn't actually need a single molecule of saturated fat so what's the point in eating any?

that article links to a study using sodium palmitiate - which is found in olives too. Yet the writer of the linked article says olives are good for us and not saturated. Confused or what?

 

[Antechinus]

Hi Blue tit,
We have an old cottage and part of it has stone walls and we get rodents in from time to time. If you ever get a rat coming into the house, as we did once, it is necessary to kill them.
Mind you I find rat traps very hairy to set.

Wood mice and pymy shrews come into the house as well as other mice and voles. We hate killing such beautiful creatures that need our protection.
On a number of occasions we have had female hares making a "form" and leaving their leverets in the garden and then seeing them coming to feed and wash them each day.
When the leveret grows and starts feeding on dandelions etc it is rare privilege to observe them through the windows.
We are surrounded by trees and fields and have no immediate neighbours.
regards
D.

We live trap the little creatures that come into the house. The natives are released unharmed while the others get euthanased. Only way to really protect the natives.

I would like to thank the person who posted the the lecture by Dr Paul Mason explaining how sugar interacts with lipoprotein's to cause atherosclerosis. Clearly mixing fats and carbs is not a good diet. But what I found really important was to have lots of omega 3 in the fats that you do consume. This is also echoed by Dr Ralp Martin in helping to prevent Alzheimers.

That was a great vid thanks.