Pesky dawn phenomenon

[Engineer88]

CGM reads inter celluar flud glucose every few mins (5 supposedly, but i think its more like 2) It can be slightly different to BG but I find its within 1mmol. so basically I should be able to say if it delays DP or stops it

 

[Engineer88]

Right so this am I have tried the experiment. My blood generally rises by 3mmol ish for DP

Sorry for the orientation. The red line is 10 and the blue line is 4.4.

Yes cheese stops DP. But actually I need DP as my insulin is set to combat it! Interesting info if I woke up higher though (and are more!)


Type 1 diagnosed 1990
HBa1c current 8.3
Pump and CGM used (animas vibe)

 

[Brunneria]

That is a brilliant demo!
Thanks.

The biggest downside that I can see, for me, is that I am getting heartily sick of cheese strings. Lol.

I'll post my weeks results tomorrow. It is certainly looking promising!

 

[andcol]

interesting I wonder if it is the slow breakdown of protein. I saw similar results but much more stable and for hours after eating beef. Havent noticed it with chicken so must be because it takes a long time to digest just like cheese with the fats and proteins. May be this is the origin of cheese giving you nightmares as your body is providing blood to your digestive system constantly instead of concentrating on your brain when you sleep

 

[miriamy]

I am getting heartily sick of cheese strings

Someone on here suggested a dollop of peanut butter at bedtime. This is working for me I think. My fasting bg is def lower than it was. I've no idea what a cheese string is!


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[Brunneria]

Someone on here suggested a dollop of peanut butter at bedtime. This is working for me I think. My fasting bg is def lower than it was. I've no idea what a cheese string is!


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Cheese strings are sticks of over processed cheese sold to gullible parents who mistakenly believe that they are putting something fun and nutritious into their child's lunchbox.

They weigh an oz and come in individual little plastic wrappers.

It is the portion size which is a huge appeal. It isn't safe to let me loose with a spoon and an open jar of peanut butter. No. No. No.

 

[donnellysdogs]

Peanut butter keeps my levels raised for quite a while. I can have (strange choice I know) slices of pork (no fat), peanut butter n cucumber for my tea and my levels will be raised all night..


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[Brunneria]

Drumroll!

The results of the 1st week of The Great Dawn Phenomenon Study are as follows:

Before test, average BG levels/changes over 30 days:

• Average rise 1.5
• Smallest 0.6
• Largest 2.1

What I did:
For 7 days, added 1 cheese string at bedtime (around 11pm, usually at a BG of around 5.3), then added 1 cheese string on waking, before getting out of bed
N.B. on annual leave this week, so without the usual work stress/schedule to add excitement

• Average rise 0.23
• Smallest -0.3
• Largest 1.0

Mon. Waking 6.1, pre breakfast 6.1
Tue. Waking 6.7, pre breakfast 7.2
Wed. Waking 6.8, pre breakfast 6.9
Thur. Waking 5.6, pre breakfast 6.6 (was more physically active than usual - stairs, answering door)
Fri. Waking 6.0, pre breakfast ?? (Forgot to test - distracted by the smell of bacon)
Sat. Waking 6.5, pre breakfast 6.6
Sun. Waking 7.0, pre breakfast 6.7 (it dropped! First time I have EVER recorded this!)

So, that looks pretty impressive, to me!
The average result without a cheese string on waking is a rise of 1.5
With a cheese string, the average rise is 0.2.
Had to discard Fridays number, so this is only across 6 days.
Also, the fact that this has been a week of holiday may have made a significant difference. My workday mornings run on a tight schedule with variable amounts of stress.

So I'm going to run this wee study again next week, because I'll be back to my usual work schedule.

I don't think that cheese strings would be a good nutritional choice, long term (and I am bored to tears with them already), but I'm thinking that their success is due to each being a combination of

Typical ValuesTypical values per 20g-
Energy 253kJ or 61kcal
Fat 4.5g
(of which saturates) 2.8g
Carbohydrate 0.5g
(of which sugars) 0.2g
Protein 4.6g
Salt 0.4g
Calcium 200mg (=25% of RDA*)
Vitamin D1.25µg (=25% of RDA*)

And they stay fresh on the dressing table overnight.
Baby bels would be a good alternative.
Unfortunately, the only other option that I can think of are pepperami - and I can't face them at 6.45am! My dedication to the cause only goes so far...

Any thoughts? Comments? Advice? Suggestions? Contributions?

In future, I would be interested to try this without the late night cheese snack. However, I have a nervousness about going to bed hungry (history of sleep disturbances, hypos, 2am carb binges, and nightmares) so am reluctant to cut the evening snack until I've examined other options...

 

[poorleen]

Hi everyone. I have read about liver dumps but can anyone give me the idiots guide to what a liver dump is.

I have had first blood tests higher than I would expect, maybe this will explain them. TIA

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[Brunneria]

@poorleen

Try this:

http://community.diabetes.org/t5/Adults-Living-with-Type-2/What-s-a-Liver-Dump/td-p/113298

You can have a liver dump during strenuous exercise, the dawn phenomenon, stress... All sorts of things. And sometimes it is really helpful!

 

[poorleen]

Many thanks for this Brunneiria. It's a big help. It has put things into perspective. The liver is a clever little tinker isn't it?

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[miriamy]

Brunneria
I find the redults of your little survey very interesting. I too have been trying to address the dawn spikes. The longer I am on the wagon - low carb, high veg and exercise- so my dawn readings have started to come down... I also know that stress is a contributing factor.

Eating and exercising my way from manic to moderate Miriam.... and a steady blood glucose.

 

[Brunneria]

Results of Week 2

This whole wee study is proving fascinating. And I am DELIGHTED with the results.

My on waking numbers were an average of 0.7 higher than during my holiday last week. That is a bit depressing, because it shows that even though my job isn't a particularly stressful one, I am apparently stressed by it.

• Pre-study average BG rise was +1.5 (over 30 days)
• Week 1 average BG rise of +0.2 (a cheese string at night and another on waking)
• Week 2 average BG drop of -0.1 (same cheese string consumption)

This week's numbers
Mon. Waking 7.1, pre breakfast 7.0
Tue. Waking 7.5, pre breakfast 7.3
Wed. Waking 6.8, pre breakfast 6.5
Thur. Waking 7.2, pre breakfast 6.9
Fri. Waking 6.50, pre breakfast 7.1 (bit stressed - intense morning ahead)
Sat. Waking 7.5, pre breakfast 6.7 (largest drop so far! Excellent!)
Sun. Waking 6.8, pre breakfast 7.1 (a busy day ahead)

Great results, eh?

• Also, despite my waking BG being higher in the mornings (stress of a work day? Or insignificant?) five out of the six days showed a drop in BG between waking and breakfast. In the whole of the month before the study, I did not record a single drop, and there was an average daily BG rise of 1.5

• Week 2 did show two rises, both on days where I woke up planning busy mornings. Yet even with this additional stress, the increases were only 0.6 and 0.3 which is far less than the average daily rise in the month before I started this little study.

Tentative conclusions:

It looks like, in my case,

• eating a small snack of cheese (carb, protein and fat) stops or reduces my Dawn Phenomenon BG rise. This happened from day one.

• Daily cheese snacks, eaten on waking, actually seem to lower my BG with a (possibly) cumulative effect over 2 weeks, so far.

• It may be worth noting that, for the entire period discussed (the past 5 weeks) I have been eating LCHF, with the occasional blip (sue me, I'm human). During the last two weeks, I think I have been fluttering on the edge of ketosis, but have not been using ketosticks to record this. I am not sure if the ketosis is affecting my dawn phenomenon or not. I suspect it is more likely to affect my fasting BG.

Next steps:

• Obviously, I have to continue for another week to see if the BG drop continues to develop.

• After that, I may stop eating the cheese strings in the morning, and see how soon my Dawn Phenomenon goes back to pre-study levels...

Will keep you all informed

All comments, ideas and constructive criticism is welcome!

 

[Debmcgee]

Loving your work!

I definitely suffer the same and wonder if I actually am prediabetic after all...my other tests are within normal range - it's just that bloody first test in the morning.

I too want to get it down but no idea how. I'll try a peanut butter treat before bed. Does cheesecake count?!

X


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[Brunneria]

Loving your work!

I definitely suffer the same and wonder if I actually am prediabetic after all...my other tests are within normal range - it's just that bloody first test in the morning.

I too want to get it down but no idea how. I'll try a peanut butter treat before bed. Does cheesecake count?!

X


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Lol. Only if it is low carb cheesecake.
http://www.satisfyingeats.com/desserts/melissas-famous-cheesecake-grain-free-sugar-free-low-carb/

Although cream cheese would probably work...

 

[Debmcgee]

It is low carb!! Whoop whoop!!


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[Debmcgee]

I'll try this recipe too. Love cheesecake!


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[Brunneria]

Results of Week 3:

A mixed bag this week. Debmcgee made the brilliant suggestion that I try nuts as a replacement for cheese strings, and I made the switch half way through the week. You will see the effect.

Mon. Waking 6.8, pre breakfast 7.1 = +0.3
Tue. Waking 7.4, pre breakfast 7.2 = -0.2
Wed. Waking 6.7, pre breakfast 7.1 = + 0.4
Thur. Waking 6.9, pre breakfast 6.7 = - 0.2
Fri. Waking 6.9, pre breakfast 8.0 = +1.1 (first day of cashews! What a difference)
Sat. Waking 6.7, pre breakfast 6.9 = + 0.2 (hmm back to a low rise. Odd. Was yesterday stress related?)
Sun. Waking 5.8, pre breakfast 7.0 = +1.2 (Oh no! Another high one. No stress today, just the expectation of a good dog walk with a friend)

• So, the first 4 days, under the ongoing cheese string regime, were as expected. Minimal rise and drop. Average rise of +0.075. Brilliant. What a result. Very happy.
• The next 3 days where a bit of a shocker. My cashew snacks are about 6 whole, un salted, un fried cashews. They are delicious, and significantly more pleasant than slightly greasy cheese. They have also eliminated Mr B's mutterings about cheese breath. However, there was a clear difference across the 3 days, with an average rise of +0.83 (10x the cheese rise!) although this is still far less than my pre-study month, where the average rise was +1.5

Week 1's rise was +0.23
Week 2's drop was -0.1
Week 3 was shaping up nicely with a +0.075 rise under the cheese string regime, but the cashew introduction caused an abrupt rise of +0.83
Tentative conclusions:
I'm thinking it may be the different proportions of fat and carbs in the cashews:

Nutrition
Typical values per (25g) contains
Energy (146kcal)
Protein 4.6g
Carbohydrate. 6.7g
Sugars. 1.5g
Fat. 11.0g
Saturates. 2.0g
Fibre. 0.8g
Salt <0.01g

The cheese has lower carb - approx 10x the fat and protein to carb
While the cashews have more carbs than protein and only half as much again fat.

Next step:
Obviously, I need a full week of cashew data before I revert to stinky cheese, but the nuts ain't looking hopeful... Anyone got any other suggestions?

Anyone?

Please?

 

[Mrs Vimes]

Brunneria those results are great. Mine goes up by 1-5 depending on the weather. It actually happens between getting in the shower and out. (10 minute shower not 3hours.)
I tested and the most extreme was 5 ish getting in and 9ish when I got out. I now bolus to get a shower. Xx


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[Brunneria]

Wow. I had heard that hot shower could affect insulin dependants, but WOW that is a dramatic jump!

Do you think a cheese string, pre shower, would have any effect at all?